Gunnar bike for touring



[email protected] wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The real question is: why wouldn't you "get the cheaper bike for now"?
>> On a scale of 0 to 100, the Windsor will get you 85+% of what you get
>>from a BG BLT [1] for about 40% of the price (after proper prep and set
>> up). As a someone new to LD touring, that makes a strong case for the
>> Windsor, IMO.

>
> Understood
>
> Also.... is the folding aspect of the Bike Friday worth
> a $1200 premium over the Windsor?


No. And the bike friday doesn't ride as well as a full size touring
bicycle, no matter how much the bike friday people say that it does.
 
peter wrote:
> landotter wrote:
>
>> Though I agree with the Windsor for the OP, I'd have no problem touring
>> on a $20 thriftstore Miyata with $100 of new bits. Fresh hyperglide FW
>> and chain should make the drivetrain happy, and you'll usually just
>> lose 11 and 13t cogs. Some fresh tires, repack bearings, service
>> cables, freshen bar tape and you're good to tour. Friction shift? Why
>> not? It's not like you're fighting in a peloton.

>
> I agree and recently received a mid-80s Specialized Sequoia in
> excellent condition. Added a bit of oil to the freewheel and it's been
> running great. To make it suitable for touring and utility functions I
> got a set of full fenders from Nashbar for $10, put on some bottle
> cages and lights/reflectors I had lying around, and moved the rear rack
> from the Cannondale criterium bike which I previously used for loaded
> tours. The fraction of a second more time spent per shift with
> friction is not likely to be a factor in how much I enjoy a tour.


I remember when friction shifting was considered an advantage on touring
bicycles, because the whole set-up was a lot simpler, and less prone to
problems.

I still use my 1980's era Specialized Expedition. Parts are still
readily available, though the chain is a bit of a problem.
 
Jack Murphy wrote:
> Right, an old 80's lugged steel bike makes a fine ride. But putting 50lbs of
> gear and crossing mountain ranges with no services for miles? No thanks.
>
> I still have my old Trek "sport tourer" that would pass for full touring now
> (long wheelbase,etc). I ride it as my bad weather commuter, with lights and
> fenders. It may last another 25 years, but you have to be kidding that you'd
> do a solo, long, self contained tour on it - there's just so much that can
> go wrong on it


If the frame is in good shape and you give it and the components a
reasonably close inspection then I see no reason to expect any greater
likelihood of problems than with a brand new bike out of the bike shop.

> and getting parts for an old bike in the middle of nowhere
> isn't an easy option. Eg how likely to find 27" touring tires?


A mid-80s bike is pretty likely to have 700c wheels (the old Sequoia I
got recently does) and many with 27" can be converted rather easily
since they have brakes with a long reach. That can be quickly checked
if it's of concern.

> Something happen to the
> crank or bb, rear wheel get hosed?


The square-taper BB spindle is still in common use and readily
available, so replacing the crank or BB is no more of an issue than
with other bikes. And replacing a wheel would also not be any problem
since it's not hard to respace a steel frame to a slightly different
axle width. And unlike more modern bikes, you don't have to worry
about compatibility issues between cassette, derailers, and shifters
since the friction shifters work fine with any mix-and-match. Unlike
STI/Ergo, it's also trivial to take apart, clean, and reassemble the
friction levers in the event that they somehow get messed up.
>
> The whole idea of the original post was to narrow down purchase decisions
> for a new touring bike. All these folks pulling bikes out of dumpsters and
> fixing em up for touring is nonsense - how many of these have really been
> out on the open road doing 85 miles of Ozark mountains with full camping
> gear?


Haven't been through the Ozarks, but I've toured on plenty of such
stretches on the Pacific coast where there weren't bike shops. And
maybe if some of the bike budget were instead invested in lighter
camping gear you wouldn't need to load up the bike with all 50 lbs. I
try to keep my load well under that - not because of concern that the
bike can't handle it, but because it keeps the motor happier when
climbing the hills.
 
SMS wrote:

> I still use my 1980's era Specialized Expedition. Parts are still
> readily available, though the chain is a bit of a problem.


Hold your nose and visit a *mart at your local strip mall. They carry
quite serviceable KMC derailleur chains meant for 6-7 speed bikes under
the house brandings for under ten bucks. They work just fine. Even 8spd
chains are usually fine on such bikes if you want fancy nickle plating
and such.
 
landotter wrote:
> SMS wrote:
>
> > I still use my 1980's era Specialized Expedition. Parts are still
> > readily available, though the chain is a bit of a problem.

>
> Hold your nose and visit a *mart at your local strip mall. They carry
> quite serviceable KMC derailleur chains meant for 6-7 speed bikes under
> the house brandings for under ten bucks. They work just fine. Even 8spd
> chains are usually fine on such bikes if you want fancy nickle plating
> and such.


One word of warning: last time I looked, Wal-Mart was selling chains
under the Bell brand name. These were made by TA YA and were similar to
the TA YA TB-50, which are not intended for usewith hyperglide type
drivetrains. This may be why they have a reputation for failing when
used with "modern" cassettes/freewheels

http://www.tayachain.com/

Click on "chain products", then "race & tour". Scroll down to TB-50.
 
SMS wrote:

> > If I were the original poster, I might look for a used Miyata 1000 or
> > Specialized Expedition (the old touring model, not the new hybrid
> > model). For $150-200 he could have a classic lugged touring bicycle. As
> > Sheldon Brown wrote, "The mid-80s Miyata 1000 was possibly the finest
> > off-the-shelf touring bike available at the time."


Ozark Bicycle wrote:

> Keys words: "AT THE TIME". That time was 20+ years ago. Spend $150-200
> for a 6SP bike with a non- index compatible drivetrain. If yer really
> lucky, the frame will have 120mm (Ultra 6) rear spacing. Oh joy. And
> then spend how much to get the thing up to modern performance standards
> in shifting, braking, etc.?? i.e., You're suggesting spending $150-200
> for a 20+ year old used frame and fork that likely needs to be modified
> to accept a modern drivetrain. Then, a new rear wheel, at a minimum.
> New FD, RD, headset, BB and shifters. Probably new brakes. New cables
> and housing all around. New saddle, etc., etc., etc. I like old bikes
> more than most people, but for the OP's needs, it makes next to no
> sense to do something like that. Not with something new like the
> Windsor Tourist available for $600 delivered to his doorstep.


Depends on your priorities. I would consider a mid-80s Miyata 1000 to
be a very fine _frame_, The dollar bought 260 yen in the mid '80s, so
you got a LOT of frame for your money.

The Miyata 1000 frame was comparable in materials and workmanship to a
new Atlantis or Rambouillet, to mention a couple of models we sell.

These framesets are well over a grand new. Since frames don't wear
out, one of these is a great choice for someone who wants a Japanese
lugged steel touring frame.

It is true that the generic tig-welded touring frames out of Taiwan
work fine, but some folks prefer something a bit more elegant.

The 120 spacing is trivial to upgrade on a good steel frame like these,
see: http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.

The only serious potential issue is cantilever placement...most of
these were designed for 630 mm (27 inch) wheels, so the cantilever
placement may or may not work well with 622 mm (700C) wheels.

Sheldon "Lugs Are Nice" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Le beau est aussi utile que l'utile --Victor Hugo |
| (The beautiful is as useful as the useful) |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
Sheldon Brown wrote:
> SMS wrote:
>
> > > If I were the original poster, I might look for a used Miyata 1000 or
> > > Specialized Expedition (the old touring model, not the new hybrid
> > > model). For $150-200 he could have a classic lugged touring bicycle. As
> > > Sheldon Brown wrote, "The mid-80s Miyata 1000 was possibly the finest
> > > off-the-shelf touring bike available at the time."

>
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> > Keys words: "AT THE TIME". That time was 20+ years ago. Spend $150-200
> > for a 6SP bike with a non- index compatible drivetrain. If yer really
> > lucky, the frame will have 120mm (Ultra 6) rear spacing. Oh joy. And
> > then spend how much to get the thing up to modern performance standards
> > in shifting, braking, etc.?? i.e., You're suggesting spending $150-200
> > for a 20+ year old used frame and fork that likely needs to be modified
> > to accept a modern drivetrain. Then, a new rear wheel, at a minimum.
> > New FD, RD, headset, BB and shifters. Probably new brakes. New cables
> > and housing all around. New saddle, etc., etc., etc. I like old bikes
> > more than most people, but for the OP's needs, it makes next to no
> > sense to do something like that. Not with something new like the
> > Windsor Tourist available for $600 delivered to his doorstep.

>
> Depends on your priorities. I would consider a mid-80s Miyata 1000 to
> be a very fine _frame_, The dollar bought 260 yen in the mid '80s, so
> you got a LOT of frame for your money.
>
> The Miyata 1000 frame was comparable in materials and workmanship to a
> new Atlantis or Rambouillet, to mention a couple of models we sell.
>
> These framesets are well over a grand new. Since frames don't wear
> out, one of these is a great choice for someone who wants a Japanese
> lugged steel touring frame.
>
> It is true that the generic tig-welded touring frames out of Taiwan
> work fine, but some folks prefer something a bit more elegant.
>
> The 120 spacing is trivial to upgrade on a good steel frame like these,
> see: http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.
>
> The only serious potential issue is cantilever placement...most of
> these were designed for 630 mm (27 inch) wheels, so the cantilever
> placement may or may not work well with 622 mm (700C) wheels.
>


Sheldon, I was referring to the suitability of a Miyata 1000 for the
OPs needs. Spending $150-200 (plus shipping) for a bike, stripping it
down to frame/fork, having the frame re-spaced at a shop and then
fitting it with a modern drive train, etc., sounds a bit over the top
for his wants/needs.
 
Ozark Bicycle wrote:

> One word of warning: last time I looked, Wal-Mart was selling chains
> under the Bell brand name. These were made by TA YA and were similar to
> the TA YA TB-50, which are not intended for usewith hyperglide type
> drivetrains. This may be why they have a reputation for failing when
> used with "modern" cassettes/freewheels
>
> http://www.tayachain.com/
>
> Click on "chain products", then "race & tour". Scroll down to TB-50.


That may be right. I've used those on quick and dirty rehabbed bikes
with plain or Uniglide sprockets w/o complaint. I always match HG cogs
with HG chains. But in a pinch, a TAYA chain should get you to the next
bike shop. Either that, or shorten the one you've got and avoid using
low gears with the big chainring.

I've used the *mart KMC SS chains for years on my single speed and SA
equipped bikes without issue. I don't know if I'd totally trust them on
my fixed gear though. It's still a KMC but a step up the line in
strength.
 
landotter wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> > One word of warning: last time I looked, Wal-Mart was selling chains
> > under the Bell brand name. These were made by TA YA and were similar to
> > the TA YA TB-50, which are not intended for use with hyperglide type
> > drivetrains. This may be why they have a reputation for failing when
> > used with "modern" cassettes/freewheels
> >
> > http://www.tayachain.com/
> >
> > Click on "chain products", then "race & tour". Scroll down to TB-50.

>
> That may be right. I've used those on quick and dirty rehabbed bikes
> with plain or Uniglide sprockets w/o complaint. I always match HG cogs
> with HG chains. But in a pinch, a TAYA chain should get you to the next
> bike shop. Either that, or shorten the one you've got and avoid using
> low gears with the big chainring.
>


There's nothing wrong with TA YA chains, per se. It's just that the
Bell branded ones at Wall World are intended for use on the kind of
bikes WW sells, which kinda makes sense. I do think there should be a
warning on the package re:use with HG (etc.) cogs.


> I've used the *mart KMC SS chains for years on my single speed and SA
> equipped bikes without issue. I don't know if I'd totally trust them on
> my fixed gear though. It's still a KMC but a step up the line in
> strength.
 
"peter" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Haven't been through the Ozarks, but I've toured on plenty of such
>stretches on the Pacific coast where there weren't bike shops. And
>maybe if some of the bike budget were instead invested in lighter


That's my intent.....I have no gear so have to buy
everything

I intend to buy/try..... Hennesy Hammock, or bivvy bag,
very light gear and clothing.
 
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> > SMS wrote:
> >
> > > > If I were the original poster, I might look for a used Miyata 1000 or
> > > > Specialized Expedition (the old touring model, not the new hybrid
> > > > model). For $150-200 he could have a classic lugged touring bicycle. As
> > > > Sheldon Brown wrote, "The mid-80s Miyata 1000 was possibly the finest
> > > > off-the-shelf touring bike available at the time."

> >
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >
> > > Keys words: "AT THE TIME". That time was 20+ years ago. Spend $150-200
> > > for a 6SP bike with a non- index compatible drivetrain. If yer really
> > > lucky, the frame will have 120mm (Ultra 6) rear spacing. Oh joy. And
> > > then spend how much to get the thing up to modern performance standards
> > > in shifting, braking, etc.?? i.e., You're suggesting spending $150-200
> > > for a 20+ year old used frame and fork that likely needs to be modified
> > > to accept a modern drivetrain. Then, a new rear wheel, at a minimum.
> > > New FD, RD, headset, BB and shifters. Probably new brakes. New cables
> > > and housing all around. New saddle, etc., etc., etc. I like old bikes
> > > more than most people, but for the OP's needs, it makes next to no
> > > sense to do something like that. Not with something new like the
> > > Windsor Tourist available for $600 delivered to his doorstep.

> >
> > Depends on your priorities. I would consider a mid-80s Miyata 1000 to
> > be a very fine _frame_, The dollar bought 260 yen in the mid '80s, so
> > you got a LOT of frame for your money.
> >
> > The Miyata 1000 frame was comparable in materials and workmanship to a
> > new Atlantis or Rambouillet, to mention a couple of models we sell.
> >
> > These framesets are well over a grand new. Since frames don't wear
> > out, one of these is a great choice for someone who wants a Japanese
> > lugged steel touring frame.
> >
> > It is true that the generic tig-welded touring frames out of Taiwan
> > work fine, but some folks prefer something a bit more elegant.
> >
> > The 120 spacing is trivial to upgrade on a good steel frame like these,
> > see: http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.
> >
> > The only serious potential issue is cantilever placement...most of
> > these were designed for 630 mm (27 inch) wheels, so the cantilever
> > placement may or may not work well with 622 mm (700C) wheels.
> >

>
> Sheldon, I was referring to the suitability of a Miyata 1000 for the
> OPs needs. Spending $150-200 (plus shipping) for a bike, stripping it
> down to frame/fork, having the frame re-spaced at a shop and then
> fitting it with a modern drive train, etc., sounds a bit over the top
> for his wants/needs.


Well, I haven't read all of this thread, but the first posting talks
about getting a custom Gunnar frame and fork, which would cost well
over a grand.

Compare that to $150-200 for an equally good and prettier frame from
Miyata.

I specifically suggested re-spacing it as a DIY activity, though it
shouldn't cost more than US$30-50 at a shop. Still a lot cheaper than
the Gunnar.

Sheldon "Gunnar Dealer" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Want of care does us more damage than want of knowledge. |
| -- Benjamin Franklin |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
Sheldon Brown wrote:

> The only serious potential issue is cantilever placement...most of
> these were designed for 630 mm (27 inch) wheels...


Are you sure?

See "http://sheldonbrown.com/japan.html" and scroll down to Miyata,
"Tires: Miyata (Panaracer) Super Touring Nylon Belted, 700x32c SSW"

If we can't believe Sheldon's web site, then we're in big trouble.

I know that the mid 1980's Specialized Expedition came with 700mm
wheels, and 700x35 tires, and it was a competitor to the 1000.

I thought that the 610 had 27" wheels because someone I know claims that
he changed out the wheels on a 610 from 27" to 700mm. The brakes were
still fine.
 
SMS wrote:
> Sheldon Brown wrote:
>
> > The only serious potential issue is cantilever placement...most of
> > these were designed for 630 mm (27 inch) wheels...

>
> Are you sure?
>
> See "http://sheldonbrown.com/japan.html" and scroll down to Miyata,
> "Tires: Miyata (Panaracer) Super Touring Nylon Belted, 700x32c SSW"
>
> If we can't believe Sheldon's web site, then we're in big trouble.


If Sheldon Brown contradicts sheldonbrown.com, it indicates a serious
rift in the space-time continuum. ;-)

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!
 
"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> SMS wrote:
>> landotter wrote:
>>
>> > It's a shame, as his bikes are beautiful and very fairly priced. It's
>> > also a shame as a touring style bike makes a great all-rounder for
>> > folks wanting to ride to work or the bike path, get some exercise, and
>> > even tour, by gosh.

>>
>> I guess not a lot of people are spending $2200 for a bicycle, no matter
>> how good it is.
>>
>> On Saturday, I was going on a ride with the spousal unit and the kids,
>> and a couple rides up to us at the start point, and he's on a new BG
>> BLT. She's on an old Miyata 610. The woman was someone who used to come
>> on my very frequent weekend tours about 20 years ago, on the same Miyata
>> 610. She's about to get a BG BLT as well. I didn't like her husband's
>> BLT, he had Bruce paint the racks and the stem the same color as the
>> bike.
>>
>> If I were the original poster, I might look for a used Miyata 1000 or
>> Specialized Expedition (the old touring model, not the new hybrid
>> model). For $150-200 he could have a classic lugged touring bicycle. As
>> Sheldon Brown wrote, "The mid-80s Miyata 1000 was possibly the finest
>> off-the-shelf touring bike available at the time."

>
> Keys words: "AT THE TIME". That time was 20+ years ago. Spend $150-200
> for a 6SP bike with a non- index compatible drivetrain. If yer really
> lucky, the frame will have 120mm (Ultra 6) rear spacing. Oh joy. And
> then spend how much to get the thing up to modern performance standards
> in shifting, braking, etc.?? i.e., You're suggesting spending $150-200
> for a 20+ year old used frame and fork that likely needs to be modified
> to accept a modern drivetrain. Then, a new rear wheel, at a minimum.
> New FD, RD, headset, BB and shifters. Probably new brakes. New cables
> and housing all around. New saddle, etc., etc., etc. I like old bikes
> more than most people, but for the OP's needs, it makes next to no
> sense to do something like that. Not with something new like the
> Windsor Tourist available for $600 delivered to his doorstep.


Why would you do all that? Nothing wrong with an 18 speed bike. Nothing
wrong with friction shifting, or barcons even. The only reason to replace
the BB or headset is if they're shot. Now, if the bike has 27 inch wheels
that could be a bit of a problem on a tour, but most bikes of that era are
convertible to 700c. Now, there's nothing wrong with the Windsor Tourist.
It's a heck of a deal, but I think too many people are convinced they must
have the "latest and greatest". Bah.
>
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> "Ozark Bicycle"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Not with something new like the
>>Windsor Tourist available for $600 delivered to his doorstep.

>
> Well.... here's the deal
>
> The bikes I'm looking at cost abt $2k...... Bike
> Friday, BLT, etc
>
> My conundrum is that for $600 I can get a Windsor and
> have almost $1400 for gear such as tent, clothing, etc.
>
> That's a big chunk of money there and I have to
> consider my "opportunity costs" as such.
>
> So..... its tempting to get the cheaper bike for now.
> But I haven't made a decision yet.


If you can wait a while, Surly is going to offer a complete Long Haul
Trucker for $1000. They say it will be available spring 2007. I don't know
what the parts spec will be, but the spec on the Windsor isn't bad at all.
I'm sure Surly will spec it with barcons, which make more sense on a touring
bike, if for no other reason than it makes mounting a handlebar bag easier.
I looked at the specs for the Surly Cross Check, which is their only current
complete bike, and it looks like the Windsor is very well specced. If Surly
uses the same spec on the LHT, then the Surly will have better hubs, bottom
bracket, handlebar, and headset than the Windsor. Handlebar isn't a biggie,
but the other parts aren't places you want to skimp. If you can stand the
extra expense the Surly looks like the way to go. If you want to go cheap
then upgrade parts later, the Windsor isn't bad at all.

Now if you want something really cool----look at the Kogswell
Porteur/Randonneur. You could likely build it for not much more than a
complete LHT.
http://www.kogswell.com/products.html
 
Gooserider wrote:

> If you can wait a while, Surly is going to offer a complete Long Haul
> Trucker for $1000.


I expect that that'll quickly become the most popular touring bicycle.
$1000 is very reasonable. Maybe it'll force Trek and Specialized to
introduce a real touring bicycle again. Do they even still know how to
build a touring frame?
 
"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Gooserider wrote:
>
>> If you can wait a while, Surly is going to offer a complete Long Haul
>> Trucker for $1000.

>
> I expect that that'll quickly become the most popular touring bicycle.
> $1000 is very reasonable. Maybe it'll force Trek and Specialized to
> introduce a real touring bicycle again. Do they even still know how to
> build a touring frame?


Touring bikes are the new fixed gears. Once they are seen as cool by
hipsters(a market Surly definitely knows how to tap), I expect the big
companies to follow suit. Whether lots of people will actually TOUR on them
is doubtful. I think most touring bikes will be used as commuters/utility
bikes/century bikes. I also think it's only a matter of time before one of
the big makers brings out a 650B wheeled bike. The 650B wheel size
eliminates a lot of the negative aspects of aluminum bikes' ride qualities.
It doesn't matter if the frame is stiff if the tires are like riding on
marshmallows. Could be an easy sell to the aging jocks whose race bikes hurt
them now.

Mike
 
Gooserider wrote:
> ...
> Touring bikes are the new fixed gears. Once they are seen as cool by
> hipsters(a market Surly definitely knows how to tap), I expect the big
> companies to follow suit. Whether lots of people will actually TOUR on them
> is doubtful. I think most touring bikes will be used as commuters/utility
> bikes/century bikes....


A whole lot more sensible idea than buying a bicycle optimized for road
racing for general use.

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!
 
"Gooserider" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I also think it's only a matter of time before one of
>the big makers brings out a 650B wheeled bike. The 650B wheel size
>eliminates a lot of the negative aspects of aluminum bikes' ride qualities.
>It doesn't matter if the frame is stiff if the tires are like riding on
>marshmallows. Could be an easy sell to the aging jocks whose race bikes hurt
>them now.


A couple random thoughts on the above...

First, I think the frame material's contribution to ride quality has
been discussed to death, and has very little bearing on the overall
ride quality (and this coming from a guy who sells only titanium)

Second, it's demonstrably true that bigger (taller) wheels produce a
better ride. Why would shrinking a 700c wheel down to the 650B spec
do anything other than make it ride worse (at a given tire width and
inflation)? If you want a 35mm 75psi tire, you can get 'em in either
spec easily.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame