Gunnar bike for touring



"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> >

> Really? Do you recall the ca. 1984 Raleigh Portage, a 650B touring
> bike? This predates the high profile of 559, so, if anything, 650B made
> more sense then than it does now. And Raleigh was still a real force in
> the marketplace then, more than Riv, Kogswell, et al *combined* ever
> will be. The Portage was a flop, and the poor suckers who bought them
> were left in the lurch. IIRC, Schwinn tried to market 650B here, too.
> Another flop.
>
> My point is that people are going to be screwed over when Riv and the
> other niche trendies move on to the next hot niche market. And for what?


Yes, I remember the Portage. One bike does not a shot make. At it's prime,
Raleigh wasn't the marketing behemoth Trek is now. I don't understand your
negativity here. Also, there are plenty of people just doing 650B
conversions, which is an excellent way to add functionality to an old bike.
Will the size EVER reach 700c levels of acceptance? No. But there are plenty
of recumbent folks riding 20 inch wheeled bikes that take quite a bit of
searching to find replacement tires, too.

I don't see it as "niche trendiness". I see it as a solution to a problem,
albeit a small one. Perhaps I'm biased because I ride a small frame size and
deal with the shortcomings of 700c wheels all the time. The biggest one? Toe
clip overlap. I ride a Gunnar Sport, and it's a great bike. In the 52cm size
I ride, with fenders and 28c Ruffy Tuffys, I have persistent overlap. I
could buy a Surly LHT or Riv Atlantis with 26 inch wheels and solve it, but
650B is also an option.

Tires and rims will always be available. In the age of the Internet, there
will always be a seller offering them to meet a need. I don't know about
you, but I have to mail order tires anyway. What's the diff if I order from
Performance or Riv or even QBP? Those tires are quite prevalent in Europe
and Japan---and always have been. Portage owners who wanted tires could
always find them.
 
Gooserider wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >>
> > >

> > Really? Do you recall the ca. 1984 Raleigh Portage, a 650B touring
> > bike? This predates the high profile of 559, so, if anything, 650B made
> > more sense then than it does now. And Raleigh was still a real force in
> > the marketplace then, more than Riv, Kogswell, et al *combined* ever
> > will be. The Portage was a flop, and the poor suckers who bought them
> > were left in the lurch. IIRC, Schwinn tried to market 650B here, too.
> > Another flop.
> >
> > My point is that people are going to be screwed over when Riv and the
> > other niche trendies move on to the next hot niche market. And for what?

>
> Yes, I remember the Portage. One bike does not a shot make. At it's prime,
> Raleigh wasn't the marketing behemoth Trek is now.


What does Trek have to do with any of this? The Trek WSDs use 650*C*, a
whole different animal.


> I don't understand your
> negativity here.


My negativity is about people being conned into buying a 650B specific
bike ("They're so cool and you're part of the 'elite' that understands
that", "Fast marshmallows!", and other Riv claptrap) only to be left in
the lurch years down the road.


>Also, there are plenty of people just doing 650B
> conversions, which is an excellent way to add functionality to an old bike.


Define "plenty". Enough to create a demand that will insure ready
availibility in the future without jumping through hoops?


> Will the size EVER reach 700c levels of acceptance? No. But there are plenty
> of recumbent folks riding 20 inch wheeled bikes that take quite a bit of
> searching to find replacement tires, too.
>
> I don't see it as "niche trendiness". I see it as a solution to a problem,
> albeit a small one.


What is the problem that can't be solved with more readily available
rims and tires?


> Perhaps I'm biased because I ride a small frame size and
> deal with the shortcomings of 700c wheels all the time. The biggest one? Toe
> clip overlap. I ride a Gunnar Sport, and it's a great bike. In the 52cm size
> I ride, with fenders and 28c Ruffy Tuffys, I have persistent overlap. I
> could buy a Surly LHT or Riv Atlantis with 26 inch wheels and solve it, but
> 650B is also an option.


Sure, you have a small problem; overlap is hardly a big deal, unless it
is excessive. If it is excessive, you bought the wrong frame for your
purposes. 650B may be a solution to a very small problem in a very
limited number of cases. So what? Do you think that will make the
demand sufficient to insure ready availability?

>
> Tires and rims will always be available.


If you're willing to jump through hoops and pay through the nose. Wow.


> In the age of the Internet, there
> will always be a seller offering them to meet a need. I don't know about
> you, but I have to mail order tires anyway. What's the diff if I order from
> Performance or Riv or even QBP? Those tires are quite prevalent in Europe
> and Japan---and always have been.


Define "quite prevalent". How many users, worldwide?


> Portage owners who wanted tires could
> always find them.


Not so easy 20 years ago, pre-internet. Google Raleigh Portage.
 
Ozark Bicycle wrote:

>
> IMO, 650B is just another marketing niche being mined by Rivendell.
> ("Be part of the elite", and think of the conversations at the coffee
> shop.)


totally. I don't think it's stupid to use it for smaller frames though,
to stay proportionate, and it's nice if you want to mount standard
reach brakes and fenders on a bike with tight clearances.

With the internet able to deliver all sorts of obscure goods to your
door, it matters little. Tire selection is a little lame, but good
enough I guess.
 
landotter wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> >
> > IMO, 650B is just another marketing niche being mined by Rivendell.
> > ("Be part of the elite", and think of the conversations at the coffee
> > shop.)

>
> totally.


I just wonder what nonsense they'll come up with next? Earlier, I
proposed it would be a 650B Mixte tandem fixie. Sounds far out, but Riv
has been getting farther and farthe out with each passing year, looking
for new niches. A few years ago, everyone woulda scoffed at the notion
of anyone making 650B Mixte (I wonder how many of those will actually
get sold).

> I don't think it's stupid to use it for smaller frames though,
> to stay proportionate, and it's nice if you want to mount standard
> reach brakes and fenders on a bike with tight clearances.


That's very different than sinking big $ into a Sakluki.


>
> With the internet able to deliver all sorts of obscure goods to your
> door, it matters little. Tire selection is a little lame, but good
> enough I guess.


But when this trendy little fad dies, sourcing rims and tires will be
much harder. I don't think QBP will stick with it once demand falls off.
 
"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Gooserider wrote:
>> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >>
>> > >
>> > Really? Do you recall the ca. 1984 Raleigh Portage, a 650B touring
>> > bike? This predates the high profile of 559, so, if anything, 650B made
>> > more sense then than it does now. And Raleigh was still a real force in
>> > the marketplace then, more than Riv, Kogswell, et al *combined* ever
>> > will be. The Portage was a flop, and the poor suckers who bought them
>> > were left in the lurch. IIRC, Schwinn tried to market 650B here, too.
>> > Another flop.
>> >
>> > My point is that people are going to be screwed over when Riv and the
>> > other niche trendies move on to the next hot niche market. And for
>> > what?

>>
>> Yes, I remember the Portage. One bike does not a shot make. At it's
>> prime,
>> Raleigh wasn't the marketing behemoth Trek is now.

>
> What does Trek have to do with any of this? The Trek WSDs use 650*C*, a
> whole different animal.
>


No, I mean that once enough small companies(Riv, Kogswell, Hampsten, Velo
Orange, etc) bring out 650B bikes, a big maker is sure to follow. Trek is
the most likely candidate, as they are the largest. I would not have been
surprised if Bianchi under Sky Yeager would have done it.


>> I don't understand your
>> negativity here.

>
> My negativity is about people being conned into buying a 650B specific
> bike ("They're so cool and you're part of the 'elite' that understands
> that", "Fast marshmallows!", and other Riv claptrap) only to be left in
> the lurch years down the road.
>

Not the same now as it once was. New tires/rims are going to be available on
the internet, even if they have to be ordered from overseas. Hell, people
still use tubulars, and I doubt they are available in many shops.

>>Also, there are plenty of people just doing 650B
>> conversions, which is an excellent way to add functionality to an old
>> bike.

>
> Define "plenty". Enough to create a demand that will insure ready
> availibility in the future without jumping through hoops?
>


QBP.

>> Will the size EVER reach 700c levels of acceptance? No. But there are
>> plenty
>> of recumbent folks riding 20 inch wheeled bikes that take quite a bit of
>> searching to find replacement tires, too.
>>
>> I don't see it as "niche trendiness". I see it as a solution to a
>> problem,
>> albeit a small one.

>
> What is the problem that can't be solved with more readily available
> rims and tires?
>


It's nice to have another option. Can TCO be solved with 559s? Sure. Do
650Bs also cure the problem? Sure.

>> Perhaps I'm biased because I ride a small frame size and
>> deal with the shortcomings of 700c wheels all the time. The biggest one?
>> Toe
>> clip overlap. I ride a Gunnar Sport, and it's a great bike. In the 52cm
>> size
>> I ride, with fenders and 28c Ruffy Tuffys, I have persistent overlap. I
>> could buy a Surly LHT or Riv Atlantis with 26 inch wheels and solve it,
>> but
>> 650B is also an option.

>
> Sure, you have a small problem; overlap is hardly a big deal, unless it
> is excessive. If it is excessive, you bought the wrong frame for your
> purposes. 650B may be a solution to a very small problem in a very
> limited number of cases. So what? Do you think that will make the
> demand sufficient to insure ready availability?
>


If it's not a problem then makers like Waterford, Riv, and Surly would just
spec 700c wheels for every frame size. It's a problem, and it prevents small
frame sizes from running fat 700c tires.

>> Tires and rims will always be available.

>
> If you're willing to jump through hoops and pay through the nose. Wow.
>



People have no problem paying through the nose for cycling stuff, in case
you hadn't noticed. It's not like good 700c tires and wheels are cheap.
People pay big money for Honjo fenders, Berthoud bags, etc. It's a HOBBY.

>> In the age of the Internet, there
>> will always be a seller offering them to meet a need. I don't know about
>> you, but I have to mail order tires anyway. What's the diff if I order
>> from
>> Performance or Riv or even QBP? Those tires are quite prevalent in Europe
>> and Japan---and always have been.

>
> Define "quite prevalent". How many users, worldwide?
>

How many passhunters in Japan? How many cyclotourists in France?

>> Portage owners who wanted tires could
>> always find them.

>
> Not so easy 20 years ago, pre-internet. Google Raleigh Portage.


I know, but they were still available.
 
"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> landotter wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > IMO, 650B is just another marketing niche being mined by Rivendell.
>> > ("Be part of the elite", and think of the conversations at the coffee
>> > shop.)

>>
>> totally.

>
> I just wonder what nonsense they'll come up with next? Earlier, I
> proposed it would be a 650B Mixte tandem fixie. Sounds far out, but Riv
> has been getting farther and farthe out with each passing year, looking
> for new niches. A few years ago, everyone woulda scoffed at the notion
> of anyone making 650B Mixte (I wonder how many of those will actually
> get sold).


Why do you care? More bikes, the better. If someone having a "country bike"
means they ride more then it's a good thing.

>> I don't think it's stupid to use it for smaller frames though,
>> to stay proportionate, and it's nice if you want to mount standard
>> reach brakes and fenders on a bike with tight clearances.

>
> That's very different than sinking big $ into a Sakluki.
>


Or how about a grand on a Kogswell P/R? $1500 on a Bleriot?

>>
>> With the internet able to deliver all sorts of obscure goods to your
>> door, it matters little. Tire selection is a little lame, but good
>> enough I guess.

>
> But when this trendy little fad dies, sourcing rims and tires will be
> much harder. I don't think QBP will stick with it once demand falls off.



Cycling is all about fads. If it sticks, fine. If not, fine. If it makes
people happy, what's the problem?
 
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > IMO, 650B is just another marketing niche being mined by Rivendell.
> > > ("Be part of the elite", and think of the conversations at the coffee
> > > shop.)

> >
> > totally.

>
> I just wonder what nonsense they'll come up with next? Earlier, I
> proposed it would be a 650B Mixte tandem fixie. Sounds far out, but Riv
> has been getting farther and farthe out with each passing year, looking
> for new niches. A few years ago, everyone woulda scoffed at the notion
> of anyone making 650B Mixte (I wonder how many of those will actually
> get sold).


It is rather strange, the wheel choice, not the mixte. I like mixtes.
We got along just fine back in the day putting 27" wheels on women's
bikes, and they're larger than 700c. Nobody other than someone getting
a smaller frame should bother with 650, just pure affectation
otherwise.

"Latte please, skinny with beet sugar and bamboo milk."
"'Scuse me sir, that's just a fabulous bike."
"Thank you, it takes a real connoisseur to enjoy a Rivendell
Penny-Farthing."

:p

For all the silly stuff they do, I do appreciate most of their choices.
I'm a guy who was a teen in the mid 80s and has the same love for
classic Japanese bikes that the Riv guys do. I've even got a babyshit
brown Univega in storage from around '83.
>
> > I don't think it's stupid to use it for smaller frames though,
> > to stay proportionate, and it's nice if you want to mount standard
> > reach brakes and fenders on a bike with tight clearances.

>
> That's very different than sinking big $ into a Sakluki.
>


What a dumb bike. If it had been 700c for the larger sizes, then I'd
say, "What a cool bike!".

>
> >
> > With the internet able to deliver all sorts of obscure goods to your
> > door, it matters little. Tire selection is a little lame, but good
> > enough I guess.

>
> But when this trendy little fad dies, sourcing rims and tires will be
> much harder. I don't think QBP will stick with it once demand falls off.


Finding rims and tires in a moderate, not racy size will be difficult
indeed, but the high zoot stuff in that size is here to stay.
 
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > IMO, 650B is just another marketing niche being mined by Rivendell.
> > > ("Be part of the elite", and think of the conversations at the coffee
> > > shop.)

> >
> > totally.

>
> I just wonder what nonsense they'll come up with next? Earlier, I
> proposed it would be a 650B Mixte tandem fixie. Sounds far out, but Riv
> has been getting farther and farthe out with each passing year, looking
> for new niches. A few years ago, everyone woulda scoffed at the notion
> of anyone making 650B Mixte (I wonder how many of those will actually
> get sold).


It is rather strange, the wheel choice, not the mixte. I like mixtes.
We got along just fine back in the day putting 27" wheels on women's
bikes, and they're larger than 700c. Nobody other than someone getting
a smaller frame should bother with 650, just pure affectation
otherwise.

"Latte please, skinny with beet sugar and bamboo milk."
"'Scuse me sir, that's just a fabulous bike."
"Thank you, it takes a real connoisseur to enjoy a Rivendell
Penny-Farthing."

:p

For all the silly stuff they do, I do appreciate most of their choices.
I'm a guy who was a teen in the mid 80s and has the same love for
classic Japanese bikes that the Riv guys do. I've even got a babyshit
brown Univega in storage from around '83.
>
> > I don't think it's stupid to use it for smaller frames though,
> > to stay proportionate, and it's nice if you want to mount standard
> > reach brakes and fenders on a bike with tight clearances.

>
> That's very different than sinking big $ into a Sakluki.
>


What a dumb bike. If it had been 700c for the larger sizes, then I'd
say, "What a cool bike!".

>
> >
> > With the internet able to deliver all sorts of obscure goods to your
> > door, it matters little. Tire selection is a little lame, but good
> > enough I guess.

>
> But when this trendy little fad dies, sourcing rims and tires will be
> much harder. I don't think QBP will stick with it once demand falls off.


Finding rims and tires in a moderate, not racy size will be difficult
indeed, but the high zoot stuff in that size is here to stay.
 
Gooserider wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Gooserider wrote:
> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> >>
> >> > >
> >> > Really? Do you recall the ca. 1984 Raleigh Portage, a 650B touring
> >> > bike? This predates the high profile of 559, so, if anything, 650B made
> >> > more sense then than it does now. And Raleigh was still a real force in
> >> > the marketplace then, more than Riv, Kogswell, et al *combined* ever
> >> > will be. The Portage was a flop, and the poor suckers who bought them
> >> > were left in the lurch. IIRC, Schwinn tried to market 650B here, too.
> >> > Another flop.
> >> >
> >> > My point is that people are going to be screwed over when Riv and the
> >> > other niche trendies move on to the next hot niche market. And for
> >> > what?
> >>
> >> Yes, I remember the Portage. One bike does not a shot make. At it's
> >> prime,
> >> Raleigh wasn't the marketing behemoth Trek is now.

> >
> > What does Trek have to do with any of this? The Trek WSDs use 650*C*, a
> > whole different animal.
> >

>
> No, I mean that once enough small companies(Riv, Kogswell, Hampsten, Velo
> Orange, etc) bring out 650B bikes, a big maker is sure to follow.


Dream on! The combined 650B sales of the makers you mention are a
flyspeck in the ocean to a company like Trek.

>Trek is
> the most likely candidate, as they are the largest. I would not have been
> surprised if Bianchi under Sky Yeager would have done it.
>
>
> >> I don't understand your
> >> negativity here.

> >
> > My negativity is about people being conned into buying a 650B specific
> > bike ("They're so cool and you're part of the 'elite' that understands
> > that", "Fast marshmallows!", and other Riv claptrap) only to be left in
> > the lurch years down the road.
> >

> Not the same now as it once was. New tires/rims are going to be available on
> the internet, even if they have to be ordered from overseas. Hell, people
> still use tubulars, and I doubt they are available in many shops.


Tubular rims and tires are pretty readily available to this day. Would
you care to compare the user base? And, if and when they fade out, the
user clamps in a 700C clincher rim/tire and rides on.
>
> >>Also, there are plenty of people just doing 650B
> >> conversions, which is an excellent way to add functionality to an old
> >> bike.

> >
> > Define "plenty". Enough to create a demand that will insure ready
> > availibility in the future without jumping through hoops?
> >

>
> QBP.


Keyword: FUTURE. Sure, for now, 'til the trendy lil' fad dies out. QBP
isn't in the business of stocking that for which there is no demand.
>
> >> Will the size EVER reach 700c levels of acceptance? No. But there are
> >> plenty
> >> of recumbent folks riding 20 inch wheeled bikes that take quite a bit of
> >> searching to find replacement tires, too.
> >>
> >> I don't see it as "niche trendiness". I see it as a solution to a
> >> problem,
> >> albeit a small one.

> >
> > What is the problem that can't be solved with more readily available
> > rims and tires?
> >

>
> It's nice to have another option. Can TCO be solved with 559s? Sure. Do
> 650Bs also cure the problem? Sure.
>
> >> Perhaps I'm biased because I ride a small frame size and
> >> deal with the shortcomings of 700c wheels all the time. The biggest one?
> >> Toe
> >> clip overlap. I ride a Gunnar Sport, and it's a great bike. In the 52cm
> >> size
> >> I ride, with fenders and 28c Ruffy Tuffys, I have persistent overlap. I
> >> could buy a Surly LHT or Riv Atlantis with 26 inch wheels and solve it,
> >> but
> >> 650B is also an option.

> >
> > Sure, you have a small problem; overlap is hardly a big deal, unless it
> > is excessive. If it is excessive, you bought the wrong frame for your
> > purposes. 650B may be a solution to a very small problem in a very
> > limited number of cases. So what? Do you think that will make the
> > demand sufficient to insure ready availability?
> >

>
> If it's not a problem then makers like Waterford, Riv, and Surly would just
> spec 700c wheels for every frame size. It's a problem, and it prevents small
> frame sizes from running fat 700c tires.


Waterford, Riv, Surly, et al are niche makers. Sure, they can exploit a
trend for a time and make a profit doing so. That's the very definition
of a niche manufacturer. But they will never create enough demand in
the replacement market to insure easy access to supply. They'll just
move on to the next trend.
>
> >> Tires and rims will always be available.

> >
> > If you're willing to jump through hoops and pay through the nose. Wow.
> >

>
>
> People have no problem paying through the nose for cycling stuff, in case
> you hadn't noticed. It's not like good 700c tires and wheels are cheap.
> People pay big money for Honjo fenders, Berthoud bags, etc. It's a HOBBY.


What's a HOBBY, overpaying for obscure, overpriced doo-doo? And "look
what I got" chit-chat at the latte stop? Enjoy your hobby. Mine is
riding bikes, sans the doo-doo and the chit-chat.

>
> >> In the age of the Internet, there
> >> will always be a seller offering them to meet a need. I don't know about
> >> you, but I have to mail order tires anyway. What's the diff if I order
> >> from
> >> Performance or Riv or even QBP? Those tires are quite prevalent in Europe
> >> and Japan---and always have been.

> >
> > Define "quite prevalent". How many users, worldwide?
> >

> How many passhunters in Japan? How many cyclotourists in France?


You said " quite prevalent", now define your term.
>
> >> Portage owners who wanted tires could
> >> always find them.

> >
> > Not so easy 20 years ago, pre-internet. Google Raleigh Portage.

>
> I know, but they were still available.


And you don't think Portage owners were left in the lurch?
 
"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >> >> clip overlap. I ride a Gunnar Sport, and it's a great bike. In the
> >> >> 52cm
>> >> >>
>> >> Tires and rims will always be available.
>> >
>> > If you're willing to jump through hoops and pay through the nose. Wow.
>> >

>>
>>
>> People have no problem paying through the nose for cycling stuff, in case
>> you hadn't noticed. It's not like good 700c tires and wheels are cheap.
>> People pay big money for Honjo fenders, Berthoud bags, etc. It's a HOBBY.

>
> What's a HOBBY, overpaying for obscure, overpriced doo-doo? And "look
> what I got" chit-chat at the latte stop? Enjoy your hobby. Mine is
> riding bikes, sans the doo-doo and the chit-chat.
>


Dude, cycling IS a hobby. That's why Trek manages to sell $5000 Lance-alikes
to dentists in huge numbers. 5 years from now, those same customers will be
back for a newer, more high tech bike. They also line up for Assos gear and
pay through the nose for it. It's a hobby. Just like golf, tennis, or
fishing.
 
"landotter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >

> It is rather strange, the wheel choice, not the mixte. I like mixtes.
> We got along just fine back in the day putting 27" wheels on women's
> bikes, and they're larger than 700c. Nobody other than someone getting
> a smaller frame should bother with 650, just pure affectation
> otherwise.
>


That's pretty much what Riv is doing. They introduced the H. Homer Hilsen
"country bike" with 700c wheels because big frames with 650B wheels aren't
necessary. I happen to think that all road bikes (non racers, anyway)
smaller than 54(and maybe 56) should have smaller than 700c wheels. 650B, 26
inch, I don't care.
 
"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> SMS wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>
>> > The Windsor Tourist is "a heck of a deal' and seems like a good
>> > solution for the OP.

>>
>> No argument there. Unless he wants to wait for the new Surly for $1000.

>
> There's still a $400 price differential. How will the Surly be $400
> better, cult following aside?


It will probably have a much better parts spec, will have the benefit of
being prepped by my LBS, and will come from the factory with barcons.
Brifters on a touring bike, which will likely have a handlebar bag, don't
make much sense. Plus, Surlys are cool. And I believe they're made in
Taiwan---whereas I'm sure the Windsor is made in China. I'd rather have my
frame made by a free Taiwanese than an oppressed Chinese.
 
landotter wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > landotter wrote:
> > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > IMO, 650B is just another marketing niche being mined by Rivendell.
> > > > ("Be part of the elite", and think of the conversations at the coffee
> > > > shop.)
> > >
> > > totally.

> >
> > I just wonder what nonsense they'll come up with next? Earlier, I
> > proposed it would be a 650B Mixte tandem fixie. Sounds far out, but Riv
> > has been getting farther and farthe out with each passing year, looking
> > for new niches. A few years ago, everyone woulda scoffed at the notion
> > of anyone making 650B Mixte (I wonder how many of those will actually
> > get sold).

>
> It is rather strange, the wheel choice, not the mixte. I like mixtes.


Yeah, it's the 650B part that's strange. And that makes the bike
non-appealing for most sensible buyers (and Mixtes appeal most to the
sensible, non-driven rider).


> We got along just fine back in the day putting 27" wheels on women's
> bikes, and they're larger than 700c. Nobody other than someone getting
> a smaller frame should bother with 650, just pure affectation
> otherwise.


Yep.

>
> "Latte please, skinny with beet sugar and bamboo milk."
> "'Scuse me sir, that's just a fabulous bike."
> "Thank you, it takes a real connoisseur to enjoy a Rivendell
> Penny-Farthing."


LOL!


>
> :p
>
> For all the silly stuff they do, I do appreciate most of their choices.
> I'm a guy who was a teen in the mid 80s and has the same love for
> classic Japanese bikes that the Riv guys do. I've even got a babyshit
> brown Univega in storage from around '83.


I was very supportive of Riv until they rather cynically (IMO) began
mining totally dumb niche markets. It's pretty clear to me that they
are counting on selling the same people a second, third and fourth
(etc.) Riv.


> >
> > > I don't think it's stupid to use it for smaller frames though,
> > > to stay proportionate, and it's nice if you want to mount standard
> > > reach brakes and fenders on a bike with tight clearances.

> >
> > That's very different than sinking big $ into a Sakluki.
> >

>
> What a dumb bike. If it had been 700c for the larger sizes, then I'd
> say, "What a cool bike!".


But it's whole reason to exist, however dumb, is the 650B
niche.....otherwise it's a redundancy in their line.
>
> >
> > >
> > > With the internet able to deliver all sorts of obscure goods to your
> > > door, it matters little. Tire selection is a little lame, but good
> > > enough I guess.

> >
> > But when this trendy little fad dies, sourcing rims and tires will be
> > much harder. I don't think QBP will stick with it once demand falls off.

>
> Finding rims and tires in a moderate, not racy size will be difficult
> indeed, but the high zoot stuff in that size is here to stay.


I wonder....when the rim tooling wears out and the tire molds finally
give out, does a maker continue support?
 
Gooserider wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >> >> clip overlap. I ride a Gunnar Sport, and it's a great bike. In the
> > >> >> 52cm
> >> >> >>
> >> >> Tires and rims will always be available.
> >> >
> >> > If you're willing to jump through hoops and pay through the nose. Wow.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> People have no problem paying through the nose for cycling stuff, in case
> >> you hadn't noticed. It's not like good 700c tires and wheels are cheap.
> >> People pay big money for Honjo fenders, Berthoud bags, etc. It's a HOBBY.

> >
> > What's a HOBBY, overpaying for obscure, overpriced doo-doo? And "look
> > what I got" chit-chat at the latte stop? Enjoy your hobby. Mine is
> > riding bikes, sans the doo-doo and the chit-chat.
> >

>
> Dude, cycling IS a hobby. That's why Trek manages to sell $5000 Lance-alikes
> to dentists in huge numbers. 5 years from now, those same customers will be
> back for a newer, more high tech bike. They also line up for Assos gear and
> pay through the nose for it. It's a hobby. Just like golf, tennis, or
> fishing.


Selling to dentists (etc.) in huge numbers....you just said it all.

Enjoy your hobby, your doo-doo and your latte.
 
Gooserider wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > SMS wrote:
> >> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >>
> >> > The Windsor Tourist is "a heck of a deal' and seems like a good
> >> > solution for the OP.
> >>
> >> No argument there. Unless he wants to wait for the new Surly for $1000.

> >
> > There's still a $400 price differential. How will the Surly be $400
> > better, cult following aside?

>
> It will probably have a much better parts spec, will have the benefit of
> being prepped by my LBS, and will come from the factory with barcons.
> Brifters on a touring bike, which will likely have a handlebar bag, don't
> make much sense.


For an additional $400, a Windsor Tourist can be prepped and speced to
the "nines", with the exact stuff the rider wants. And the discards can
be sold off.


> Plus, Surlys are cool.


Worth exactly $0.00!


And I believe they're made in
> Taiwan---whereas I'm sure the Windsor is made in China. I'd rather have my
> frame made by a free Taiwanese than an oppressed Chinese.


"Free Taiwanese", what ******** that is!
 
Ozark Bicycle wrote:

> >
> > "Latte please, skinny with beet sugar and bamboo milk."
> > "'Scuse me sir, that's just a fabulous bike."
> > "Thank you, it takes a real connoisseur to enjoy a Rivendell
> > Penny-Farthing."

>
> LOL!


Bah, modernist heretic! You've likely not ridden a state of the art
Rivendell Sauron. The ride quality of wood is vastly underestimated.
Pedal system? Bah! Real men scoot by scuffing their feet on the ground.
 
Gooserider wrote:
> "landotter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >

> > It is rather strange, the wheel choice, not the mixte. I like mixtes.
> > We got along just fine back in the day putting 27" wheels on women's
> > bikes, and they're larger than 700c. Nobody other than someone getting
> > a smaller frame should bother with 650, just pure affectation
> > otherwise.
> >

>
> That's pretty much what Riv is doing. They introduced the H. Homer Hilsen
> "country bike" with 700c wheels because big frames with 650B wheels aren't
> necessary.


No, Riv "introduced" the Hilson to mine another niche ("Country bike"
-LOL!!) and get more $ out of a previous Riv buyer. Milk those yuppies,
GP!

> I happen to think that all road bikes (non racers, anyway)
> smaller than 54(and maybe 56) should have smaller than 700c wheels. 650B, 26
> inch, I don't care.


Depends on TT length; I very much doubt a 56cm ST would ever need
smaller wheels, except as a custom for a 99th percentile long leg/short
torso rider.
 
landotter wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> > >
> > > "Latte please, skinny with beet sugar and bamboo milk."
> > > "'Scuse me sir, that's just a fabulous bike."
> > > "Thank you, it takes a real connoisseur to enjoy a Rivendell
> > > Penny-Farthing."

> >
> > LOL!

>
> Bah, modernist heretic! You've likely not ridden a state of the art
> Rivendell Sauron. The ride quality of wood is vastly underestimated.
> Pedal system? Bah! Real men scoot by scuffing their feet on the ground.


Toe clips? We don't need no steeenking toe clips!
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> landotter wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> > landotter wrote:
>> > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > IMO, 650B is just another marketing niche being mined by Rivendell.
>> > > > ("Be part of the elite", and think of the conversations at the coffee
>> > > > shop.)
>> > >
>> > > totally.
>> >
>> > I just wonder what nonsense they'll come up with next? Earlier, I
>> > proposed it would be a 650B Mixte tandem fixie. Sounds far out, but Riv
>> > has been getting farther and farthe out with each passing year, looking
>> > for new niches. A few years ago, everyone woulda scoffed at the notion
>> > of anyone making 650B Mixte (I wonder how many of those will actually
>> > get sold).

>>
>> It is rather strange, the wheel choice, not the mixte. I like mixtes.

>
> Yeah, it's the 650B part that's strange. And that makes the bike
> non-appealing for most sensible buyers (and Mixtes appeal most to the
> sensible, non-driven rider).


Heh. I happen to have a mixte. It's an imported-into-Canada
Japanese bike-boom bike from the early '70s. Raven-black paint,
subtly fancy lugs, 27" wheels. And exotic as all get-out -- it
originally came with the Selecta-T "One Key Release" crankset,
and Shimano's experimental FFS (Front Freewheel System,) which
allows a rider to downshift at a standstill by backpedalling.
I still have that stuff, but I've replaced the orig steel-rimmed
wheels with alu-alloy ones, and a cheap-o champagne 5-spd
freewheel and a PC-48 chain.

The old Tourney centre-pull brakes are surprisingly positive,
once you get the feel for them.

It's the sports car of my fleet.

It can't carry cargo loads, though. It goes all whippy in
the back end if I try.

But I've had enough faith in 'er to get me through
60-milers, and she hasn't failed me yet.

And it's not a "women's" bike. It's a '70s Unisex thing.

27" is/was a good wheel size.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Gooserider" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Gooserider" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> I also think it's only a matter of time before one of
> >>the big makers brings out a 650B wheeled bike. The 650B wheel size
> >>eliminates a lot of the negative aspects of aluminum bikes' ride
> >>qualities.
> >>It doesn't matter if the frame is stiff if the tires are like riding on
> >>marshmallows. Could be an easy sell to the aging jocks whose race bikes
> >>hurt
> >>them now.

> >
> > A couple random thoughts on the above...
> >
> > First, I think the frame material's contribution to ride quality has
> > been discussed to death, and has very little bearing on the overall
> > ride quality (and this coming from a guy who sells only titanium)

>
> The reason I used aluminum as an example is because aluminum is the
> predominant frame material used in bicycle construction. I know you're an
> expert, Mark, but aluminum race bikes just "FEEL" stiffer.


Except, of course, when they feel flexier. ALAN. Vitus 979.

> > Second, it's demonstrably true that bigger (taller) wheels produce a
> > better ride. Why would shrinking a 700c wheel down to the 650B spec
> > do anything other than make it ride worse (at a given tire width and
> > inflation)? If you want a 35mm 75psi tire, you can get 'em in either
> > spec easily.
> >

> Don't ask me. Ask everybody who owns a 650B bike. They all say the same
> thing---"Like riding on fast marshmallows. Don't even feel little bumps. ,
> etc". Plus, the smaller wheel size solves a LOT of problems for smaller
> frame sizes. Sure, one could spec 26 inch wheels but 650B may be an easier
> sell.


"Sure, you could buy a bike with 26-inch or 650C wheels, two standards
for which rims, tires, and tubes are widely available, or you could go
with some other size which is sporadically supported at best!"

I suppose 650B riders have their reasons, but from a practical point of
view, 26" and 650C seem like much better solutions, and either will do a
better job of fixing toe overlap, too.

I certainly don't want to prevent anyone from riding a 650B if that's
their dream. But between the sensuous qualities of frame materials and
650B as a solution for any non-aesthetic problems, I think you have
transcended the discernable.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos