Hain urges cyclist deaths report

[wafflycat]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_west/4593904.stm


It says as follows: -

"Welsh Secretary Peter Hain has called for a report into an accident in
which four cyclists died when a car ploughed into them.

One rider, Jon Harland, from Prestatyn, saw his 14-year-old son Thomas
killed.

The tragedy happened as 12 members of Rhyl Cycling Club were out near
Abergele in North Wales on Sunday.

Club chairman Maurice Broadbent, 61, from Rhuddlan, Dave Horrocks, 55, from
Llanerch and 42-year-old Wayne Wilkes, from Rhyl, were also killed.

Police describe the deaths on Sunday as a "tragic accident". Officers said a
Toyota Corolla travelling in the opposite direction, skidded on ice and spun
into the riders, throwing several into a neighbouring field.

Mr Hain said: "The thoughts of the people of Wales are with the families
after this shocking accident. I will be asking the police and the local
authorities for a report into how this tragedy happened."

The cyclists had just set out from Mr Broadbent's home in Rhuddlan on a
60-mile round trip to Great Orme when the crash took place on a notoriously
dangerous stretch of the A547 Rhuddlan Road.

Club secretary Scott Eccles said: "It was just a training ride. I've got a
cold, otherwise I would have been out there today and I could have been
killed."

North Wales Police Chief Inspector Lyn Adams said the car driver had lost
control on a gentle left hand bend because of ice.
"There is no indication to suggest that this is down to something like
excessive speed," he said.

"Our best estimate at the moment is that the car was driving at something
like 50 miles per hour. On a road like this, that isn't excessive speed."

Conwy councillor Darren Miller said he contacted the chief highways officer
as soon as he heard about the incident to ask why the road was in such poor
condition.

"I understand it was treated at 1730 GMT the previous evening but I
personally don't feel it was acceptable given the condition of the road that
morning," he told BBC Wales.

One of the first people on the scene was Reverend Huw Rowlands, who told BBC
Radio Wales: "I went to this lad [and] prayed with him. Then I heard a man,
who was in shock, say, 'That's my boy'.

"It was a sight you can never forget really."

Club time-trial secretary Ashley Roberts said: "It's quite a small club.
Everybody has some connection with the riders who were out there [on
Sunday]. It's going to affect every member."

Sharp bends
Mr Broadbent, a qualified cycling coach in his 60s, was married with a son
and a daughter. Mr Wilkes had two children and Mr Horrocks was also a
married father.

Dr Stuart Anderson, a good friend of Mr Broadbent, described him as "one of
those genuinely nice people - a very modest but a very effective person".

"Maurice always took the right precautions - he was a very keen safety man,"
he said.

"I'm sure from the point of view of him and his colleagues they took every
precaution."

In September, the A547 in the Abergele area was named among the 11 most
deadly roads in north Wales by police.

Sue Luckman, 48, a hospital administrator who lives near the accident site,
said: "It was carnage, it was awful, absolutely awful."

Seven of the eight cyclists taken to hospital were released last night,
North Wales Police said. Mr Harland was still being treated for the broken
leg."

 

[Colin Davidson]

"wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_west/4593904.stm

(cut)
> Officers said a
> Toyota Corolla travelling in the opposite direction, skidded on ice and
spun
> into the riders, throwing several into a neighbouring field.

(cut)

> "Our best estimate at the moment is that the car was driving at something
> like 50 miles per hour. On a road like this, that isn't excessive speed."

(cut)

What a desperately sad accident. The only thing I really, really take issue
with in that account is that in icy conditions, 50mph can very easily be too
fast. The claim that this wasn't esxessive speed seems to have come rather
early.

 

[wafflycat]

"Colin Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> What a desperately sad accident. The only thing I really, really take
> issue
> with in that account is that in icy conditions, 50mph can very easily be
> too
> fast. The claim that this wasn't esxessive speed seems to have come rather
> early.
>


You aren't the only one who thinks that the claim this wasn't excessive
speed was made a bit early...

Cheers, helen s

 

[Tony Raven]

wafflycat wrote:
>
> You aren't the only one who thinks that the claim this wasn't excessive
> speed was made a bit early...
>

....and nothing of course to do with the fact they had done nothing to
make the road safer after a similar accident on the same stretch an hour
earlier.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

 

[Paul - xxx]

wafflycat came up with the following;:
> "Colin Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> What a desperately sad accident. The only thing I really, really take
>> issue
>> with in that account is that in icy conditions, 50mph can very easily be
>> too
>> fast. The claim that this wasn't esxessive speed seems to have come
>> rather early.
>>
>
>
> You aren't the only one who thinks that the claim this wasn't excessive
> speed was made a bit early...

I think the problem is that 'the speed limit' is now the measure, in the
Polices' eyes, for excessive speed, not what the conditions actually are.
As a Police Force, NW police have been tough in enforcing speed limits,
perhaps they don't really understand that what is excessive isn't
necessarily over, or indeed anywhere near the limit, depending upon
prevailing conditions.

Which is, I guess, the same argument used for people to exceed the limit on
a clear, dry motorway ...

Lessons to be learned, I think.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

 

[Richard]

Paul - *** wrote:

> I think the problem is that 'the speed limit' is now the measure, in the
> Polices' eyes, for excessive speed, not what the conditions actually
> are. As a Police Force, NW police have been tough in enforcing speed
> limits, perhaps they don't really understand that what is excessive
> isn't necessarily over, or indeed anywhere near the limit, depending
> upon prevailing conditions.
>
> Which is, I guess, the same argument used for people to exceed the limit
> on a clear, dry motorway ...

No, it really isn't, although no doubt some speedophiles will take it
upon themselves to attempt to use it.

R.

 

[Paul - xxx]

Richard came up with the following;:
> Paul - *** wrote:
>
>> I think the problem is that 'the speed limit' is now the measure, in the
>> Polices' eyes, for excessive speed, not what the conditions actually
>> are. As a Police Force, NW police have been tough in enforcing speed
>> limits, perhaps they don't really understand that what is excessive
>> isn't necessarily over, or indeed anywhere near the limit, depending
>> upon prevailing conditions.
>>
>> Which is, I guess, the same argument used for people to exceed the limit
>> on a clear, dry motorway ...
>
> No, it really isn't, although no doubt some speedophiles will take it
> upon themselves to attempt to use it.

I didn't mean it is a valid argument, just that it is one that is used
frequently to try and excuse driving above the limit.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

 

[David Martin]

Paul - *** wrote:
> I think the problem is that 'the speed limit' is now the measure, in the
> Polices' eyes, for excessive speed, not what the conditions actually are.

Apparently there is a specific definition so the officer was
technically correct, though misleading to non-specialists.

> As a Police Force, NW police have been tough in enforcing speed limits,
> perhaps they don't really understand that what is excessive isn't
> necessarily over, or indeed anywhere near the limit, depending upon
> prevailing conditions.

ITYM inappropriate

> Which is, I guess, the same argument used for people to exceed the limit on
> a clear, dry motorway ...
>
> Lessons to be learned, I think.

All that sits between you and a similar accident is four small contact
patches and friction. That is it. No amount of blarney can deny the
laws of physics.

...d

 

[davidof]

wafflycat wrote:
>
> "Colin Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> What a desperately sad accident. The only thing I really, really take
>> issue
>> with in that account is that in icy conditions, 50mph can very easily
>> be too
>> fast. The claim that this wasn't esxessive speed seems to have come
>> rather
>> early.
>>
>
>
> You aren't the only one who thinks that the claim this wasn't excessive
> speed was made a bit early...

Living in the mountains I drive on snow and ice for most of the winter
(including on my MTB). It is very easy for even an experienced and
careful driver to lose control on ice even when equipped with winter
tires. Ice offers absolutely no grip unless you have snow chains or
studded tires. Skidpan training doesn't help much, nor do ABS brakes. In
some circumstances just being out on the road is the issue, if there is
a camber or slope you can skid without much control over direction even
at low speeds.

I think Peter Hain is right to ask for more information about this
accident. The driver might not have been going excessively fast in
normal conditions - should there have been better road maintenance and
some indication of the dangerous conditions? It sounds like it is not
entirely clear cut. I hope someone posts the results of the inquiry.

I say this as someone who has lost several friend cyclists to dangerous
drivers and am the last person to excuse dangerous driving.

 

[Tony Raven]

davidof wrote:
>
> I think Peter Hain is right to ask for more information about this
> accident. The driver might not have been going excessively fast in
> normal conditions - should there have been better road maintenance and
> some indication of the dangerous conditions? It sounds like it is not
> entirely clear cut. I hope someone posts the results of the inquiry.
>

I agree but I also wonder. When I was young roads were ploughed if it
was snowy but that was it. These days we expect them to be gritted and
salted and that we can get on with driving as normal. When suddenly you
find a road that isn't gritted people have little idea how to cope. If
we gritted roads less I wonder whether people would start to realise
that when its snowy or icy there are slippery roads out there. As it is
we get people thinking its fine to drive normally whatever the
temperature or weather which leads to the mass stranding on Dartmoor
recently as people suddenly find there are still limits.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

 

[[email protected]]

would like to add some local information. The earlier messages about
temperature and snow on Saturday night are correct. On Sunday morning
it was very cold and clear in Bodelwyddan. (1 mile fromn scene of
accident) When I went down Engine Hill at 10.00- local people will know

that the council gritting depot is here, I saw no gritters and the
B5381 and Engine Hill weren't gritted. The reports say that the road
were the accident happened was gritted at 17.30 the previous day.At
0700 this morning I counted 4 gritter lorries leaving the depot in 10
minutes. It was nowhere near as cold or frosty this morning. Engine
Hill and the B5381 resembled a sand pit !! I hope someone is going to
find out from the council the tonnage of grit spread today(not needed)
with the tonnage used yesterday

 

[Tony Raven]

davidof wrote:
>
> Living in the mountains I drive on snow and ice for most of the winter
> (including on my MTB). It is very easy for even an experienced and
> careful driver to lose control on ice even when equipped with winter
> tires. Ice offers absolutely no grip unless you have snow chains or
> studded tires. Skidpan training doesn't help much, nor do ABS brakes.

Have you had any ice driving training? Skid pans are no use. You need
the training cars mounted in the special grip varying frames so that you
can practice on ice like conditions and simulate suddenly hitting ice
from a dry road. It does seem impossible but you can learn to have more
control than you ever thought possible. IIRC one of the TV programmes
took one of the presenters on a course on a Scandinavian lake and he
couldn't believe the transformation either. Too many people think they
can make it up when they need it but it doesn't work like that.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

 

[Clive George]

"davidof" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I think Peter Hain is right to ask for more information about this
> accident. The driver might not have been going excessively fast in normal
> conditions

'normal' or 'perfect'? Almost certainly wasn't going excessively fast for a
warm dry road.

The question is did other drivers manage to negotiate that road safely? If
so, it suggests that this particular driver was doing something wrong.

clive

 

[Gwyn Oakley]

In message <[email protected]>
Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

> davidof wrote:
> >
> > I think Peter Hain is right to ask for more information about this
> > accident. The driver might not have been going excessively fast in
> > normal conditions - should there have been better road maintenance and
> > some indication of the dangerous conditions? It sounds like it is not
> > entirely clear cut. I hope someone posts the results of the inquiry.
> >
>
> I agree but I also wonder. When I was young roads were ploughed if it
> was snowy but that was it. These days we expect them to be gritted and
> salted and that we can get on with driving as normal. When suddenly you
> find a road that isn't gritted people have little idea how to cope. If
> we gritted roads less I wonder whether people would start to realise
> that when its snowy or icy there are slippery roads out there. As it is
> we get people thinking its fine to drive normally whatever the
> temperature or weather which leads to the mass stranding on Dartmoor
> recently as people suddenly find there are still limits.

I also think that "modern" cars are a contributory factor. I remember in
old cars in winter you knew when it was cold outside as th heater
struggled to cope etc. Modern cars insulate and isolate the occupants
from the outside so much that an appreciation of the real conditions is
not made soon enough.

Returning to the comment of the Chief Inspector Lyn Adams I feel that
his comments were unwise because they could be interpreted as 50mph is
an acceptable speed to drive on ice and if anything goes wrong the
driver is blameless...

>

--
Gwyn

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Tony Raven wrote:

> davidof wrote:
>
>>
>> I think Peter Hain is right to ask for more information about this
>> accident. The driver might not have been going excessively fast in
>> normal conditions - should there have been better road maintenance and
>> some indication of the dangerous conditions? It sounds like it is not
>> entirely clear cut. I hope someone posts the results of the inquiry.
>>
>
> I agree but I also wonder. When I was young roads were ploughed if it
> was snowy but that was it. These days we expect them to be gritted and
> salted and that we can get on with driving as normal. When suddenly you
> find a road that isn't gritted people have little idea how to cope. If
> we gritted roads less I wonder whether people would start to realise
> that when its snowy or icy there are slippery roads out there. As it is
> we get people thinking its fine to drive normally whatever the
> temperature or weather which leads to the mass stranding on Dartmoor
> recently as people suddenly find there are still limits.
>
I agree. They don't salt the roads in Japan, for instance. In parts of
the US you get sand. Less corrosion on the cars.

In parts of Europe, where there is snow all winter, the locals generally
use snow tyres. They have steel wheels for winter and alloy wheels for
summer, which makes swapping tyres just a case of changing the wheels.
Try and find a single car in the Austrian Alps in summer *without* alloy
wheels!

 

[MartinM]

Zog The Undeniable wrote:


> I agree. They don't salt the roads in Japan, for instance. In parts of
> the US you get sand. Less corrosion on the cars.

I was told at school this was because the salt on gritted roads reduced
the freezing point to -4oC; quite effective in the UK but no use when
it is routinely much colder.

Also re the comment about the police requesting the road be gritted in
the morning, I thought that once the water had frozen the damage was
done.

 

[David Martin]

MartinM wrote:
> Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
>
> > I agree. They don't salt the roads in Japan, for instance. In parts of
> > the US you get sand. Less corrosion on the cars.
>
> I was told at school this was because the salt on gritted roads reduced
> the freezing point to -4oC; quite effective in the UK but no use when
> it is routinely much colder.
>
> Also re the comment about the police requesting the road be gritted in
> the morning, I thought that once the water had frozen the damage was
> done.

Grit is a blend of sharp sand, fine gravel and salt, the precise blend
of which depends on the conditins. For temperatures around zero, common
salt works well as it will liquify the ice. It does have the
consequence of cooling the surface slightly (entropy dear boy) so any
freezing rain falling will dilute the salt (reducing its effectiveness)
and be more likely to freeze. Salting the road just before the rainfal
was potentially worse than not salting at all.

As the conditions get colder salt can have the wonderful effect of
taking nice hard packed snow crystals that have some form and a degree
of grip, and turning them into sheet ice overnight. Loverly. And so if
it will be below about -5 they will not use salt but will use sand and
gravel instead. IIRC There are also non-rock salt deicers but they can
be expensive.

In Scandinavia the road is not blamed. People slow down. Sure, ****
happens but when it does it is not such bad **** because the speeds at
which it happens are much slower.

...d

 

[davidof]

Tony Raven wrote:
>
> Have you had any ice driving training? Skid pans are no use.

No just skid pan so I accept what you tell me.

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

wafflycat wrote:
> "Colin Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> What a desperately sad accident. The only thing I really, really take
>> issue
>> with in that account is that in icy conditions, 50mph can very
>> easily be too
>> fast. The claim that this wasn't esxessive speed seems to have come
>> rather early.
>
> You aren't the only one who thinks that the claim this wasn't
> excessive speed was made a bit early...

I don't have a source for this, but someone on the Singletrack forum quoted
it as coming from a North Wales policeman on another forum:-

-included message- (sorry, no paste as quote button)
I saw that bumbling pillock of a boss on the news yesterday, saying that the
accident was caused by the ice. The scene hadn't even been fully examined
when he spoke - the vehicle and bikes were still in situ, and the A.I's were
still doing their stuff.

Not one witness statement would have been taken at that point, the vehicle
wouldn't have been examined,
the driver won't have been interviewed yet, and the P.Ms of the poor buggers
who died haven't yet been done.

Yet he was quite happy to state on television that the accident was caused
by an icy road.
If it turns out that the driver has committed any offences, I know which bit
of footage I'd be playing at his trial if I was his defence solicitor.
-end-

Seems like a pretty acute assessment to me.

--
Ambrose

 

[Chris Malcolm]

Gwyn Oakley <[email protected]> wrote:
> In message <[email protected]>
> Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

>> davidof wrote:
>> >
>> > I think Peter Hain is right to ask for more information about this
>> > accident. The driver might not have been going excessively fast in
>> > normal conditions - should there have been better road maintenance and
>> > some indication of the dangerous conditions? It sounds like it is not
>> > entirely clear cut. I hope someone posts the results of the inquiry.
>> >
>>
>> I agree but I also wonder. When I was young roads were ploughed if it
>> was snowy but that was it. These days we expect them to be gritted and
>> salted and that we can get on with driving as normal. When suddenly you
>> find a road that isn't gritted people have little idea how to cope. If
>> we gritted roads less I wonder whether people would start to realise
>> that when its snowy or icy there are slippery roads out there. As it is
>> we get people thinking its fine to drive normally whatever the
>> temperature or weather which leads to the mass stranding on Dartmoor
>> recently as people suddenly find there are still limits.

> I also think that "modern" cars are a contributory factor. I remember in
> old cars in winter you knew when it was cold outside as th heater
> struggled to cope etc. Modern cars insulate and isolate the occupants
> from the outside so much that an appreciation of the real conditions is
> not made soon enough.

I used to fit my motorcycles with a device called an Ice-alert (IIRC)
which had a sensor mounted close to the road which lit a dash warning
light when temperatures got icy. I stopped using it because I found it
never told me something I didn't know already. But of course on a bike
I was out in the weather unheated, and on only two wheels very well
motivated to pay careful attention ot skidding risks

I'm very surprised that such a device isn't fitted as standard to
modern cars, given that they're designed to insulate you so well from
the weather. It would be very cheap as a standard fitting.

--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]