Hain urges cyclist deaths report

[Chris Malcolm]

Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
> davidof wrote:

>> Living in the mountains I drive on snow and ice for most of the winter
>> (including on my MTB). It is very easy for even an experienced and
>> careful driver to lose control on ice even when equipped with winter
>> tires. Ice offers absolutely no grip unless you have snow chains or
>> studded tires. Skidpan training doesn't help much, nor do ABS brakes.

> Have you had any ice driving training? Skid pans are no use. You need
> the training cars mounted in the special grip varying frames so that you
> can practice on ice like conditions and simulate suddenly hitting ice
> from a dry road. It does seem impossible but you can learn to have more
> control than you ever thought possible.

The same is true of walking on ice. Lots of people can't take two
steps without faliing over, but it's possible to walk for miles on ice
quite safely without special footwear. And in snowy hillwalks I've
sometimes swopped my boots with someone who was falling over the place
"because these aren't the right kind soles". So they wear my boots and
I wear the wrong kind of soles, and I still trudge on happily and they
fall all over the place. But as a kid I was a skater and sledger and
scree runner and learnt how to walk and run on anything.

Understanding how to walk safely on ice is the start of understanding
how to drive on it. One thing you need is well-adjusted carburation
(injection) so that throttle response is finely controllable,
especially through the transition from power to engine braking. Lots
of cars aren't in good enough tune to have that.

--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

 

[Danny Colyer]

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> I used to fit my motorcycles with a device called an Ice-alert (IIRC)
> which had a sensor mounted close to the road which lit a dash warning
> light when temperatures got icy.
<snip>
> I'm very surprised that such a device isn't fitted as standard to
> modern cars, given that they're designed to insulate you so well from
> the weather. It would be very cheap as a standard fitting.

The clock in my wife's 4yo Fabia automatically switches to temperature
display, with a frost symbol alongside, when the temperature drops to
4C. I have colleagues whose cars have the same feature. I get the
impression that it actually /is/ pretty standard in modern cars.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

 

[Patrick Herring]

Gwyn Oakley <[email protected]> wrote:
....
| Returning to the comment of the Chief Inspector Lyn Adams I feel that
| his comments were unwise because they could be interpreted as 50mph is
| an acceptable speed to drive on ice and if anything goes wrong the
| driver is blameless...

Me2. Replace "unwise" with "culpably stupid".

I did get the feeling that one of the premises in his mind, from which
he inferred "not excessive speed" was that it was the Council's
responsibility to maintain the road surface, so the driver could
reasonably expect a particular level of performance. Perhaps if this
could be made more explicit we could get loads of Council officers
lining up to camera to point out they can't really do this and drivers
must take the ultimate responsibility.

--
Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk/ph

 

[Dave Larrington]

In article <[email protected]>, Danny
Colyer ([email protected]) wrote:
> Chris Malcolm wrote:
> > I used to fit my motorcycles with a device called an Ice-alert (IIRC)
> > which had a sensor mounted close to the road which lit a dash warning
> > light when temperatures got icy.
> <snip>
> > I'm very surprised that such a device isn't fitted as standard to
> > modern cars, given that they're designed to insulate you so well from
> > the weather. It would be very cheap as a standard fitting.
>
> The clock in my wife's 4yo Fabia automatically switches to temperature
> display, with a frost symbol alongside, when the temperature drops to
> 4C. I have colleagues whose cars have the same feature. I get the
> impression that it actually /is/ pretty standard in modern cars.

I had one in a 1989 Citroen CX, though obviously being attached to a
Citroen of a Certain Age meant that it was not terribly reliable.
Unless it really /did/ get to 55 deg. C in Wandsworth on the evening of
June 24th 1994.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Where's the gin?

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

Dave Larrington wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Danny Colyer ([email protected]) wrote:
>> Chris Malcolm wrote:
>>> I used to fit my motorcycles with a device called an Ice-alert
>>> (IIRC) which had a sensor mounted close to the road which lit a
>>> dash warning light when temperatures got icy.
>> <snip>
>>> I'm very surprised that such a device isn't fitted as standard to
>>> modern cars, given that they're designed to insulate you so well
>>> from the weather. It would be very cheap as a standard fitting.
>>
>> The clock in my wife's 4yo Fabia automatically switches to
>> temperature display, with a frost symbol alongside, when the
>> temperature drops to 4C. I have colleagues whose cars have the same
>> feature. I get the impression that it actually /is/ pretty standard
>> in modern cars.
>
> I had one in a 1989 Citroen CX, though obviously being attached to a
> Citroen of a Certain Age meant that it was not terribly reliable.
> Unless it really /did/ get to 55 deg. C in Wandsworth on the evening
> of June 24th 1994.

The one in my brother's (1992) Astra was reading 72°C before plonking out
with a ---°C.

He considers that to be an equipment failure, rather than a warning it's
absolute zero out there. I think he's right.


--
Ambrose

 

[dave]

Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> Dave Larrington wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Danny Colyer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>
>>> Chris Malcolm wrote:
>>>
>>>> I used to fit my motorcycles with a device called an Ice-alert
>>>> (IIRC) which had a sensor mounted close to the road which lit a
>>>> dash warning light when temperatures got icy.
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> I'm very surprised that such a device isn't fitted as standard to
>>>> modern cars, given that they're designed to insulate you so well
>>>> from the weather. It would be very cheap as a standard fitting.
>>>
>>>
>>> The clock in my wife's 4yo Fabia automatically switches to
>>> temperature display, with a frost symbol alongside, when the
>>> temperature drops to 4C. I have colleagues whose cars have the same
>>> feature. I get the impression that it actually /is/ pretty standard
>>> in modern cars.
>>
>>
>> I had one in a 1989 Citroen CX, though obviously being attached to a
>> Citroen of a Certain Age meant that it was not terribly reliable.
>> Unless it really /did/ get to 55 deg. C in Wandsworth on the evening
>> of June 24th 1994.
>
>
> The one in my brother's (1992) Astra was reading 72°C before plonking
> out with a ---°C.
>
> He considers that to be an equipment failure, rather than a warning it's
> absolute zero out there. I think he's right.
>
>
Perhaps not risk opening the door just in case?

Dave

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

dave wrote:
> Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>>
>> The one in my brother's (1992) Astra was reading 72°C before plonking
>> out with a ---°C.
>>
>> He considers that to be an equipment failure, rather than a warning
>> it's absolute zero out there. I think he's right.
>>
>>
> Perhaps not risk opening the door just in case?

You have a pretty high estimation of the insulating properties of the
bodyshell of a Vauxhall, don't you?
--
Ambrose

 

[Danny Colyer]

Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> The one in my brother's (1992) Astra was reading 72°C before plonkingout
> with a ---°C.

Now that you come to mention it, ISTR my wife's Corsa (M reg IIRC,
whatever year that was) doing much the same.

> He considers that to be an equipment failure, rather than a warning it's
> absolute zero out there. I think he's right.

Seems reasonable.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

Danny Colyer wrote:
> Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>> The one in my brother's (1992) Astra was reading 72°C before
>> plonking out with a ---°C.
>
> Now that you come to mention it, ISTR my wife's Corsa (M reg IIRC,
> whatever year that was) doing much the same.

I had a look at a couple of Astras of a similar aged stopped at the lights
on the ride I was just out on, but couldn't see whether or not they were
faulty too.
--
Ambrose

 

[Adrian Godwin]

Gwyn Oakley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I also think that "modern" cars are a contributory factor. I remember in
> old cars in winter you knew when it was cold outside as th heater
> struggled to cope etc. Modern cars insulate and isolate the occupants
> from the outside so much that an appreciation of the real conditions is
> not made soon enough.
>

I read an article yesterday describing how reliant modern drivers are
on ABS etc., failing to cope when put in an older car.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/01/11/todays-drivers-suffer-without-high-tech-systems/

Similarly, I might expect that when the conditions are beyond those
automatic systems can cope with, the sudden loss of control is
all the more difficult for the driver to handle.


-adrian

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

Adrian Godwin wrote:
> Gwyn Oakley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I also think that "modern" cars are a contributory factor. I
>> remember in old cars in winter you knew when it was cold outside as
>> th heater struggled to cope etc. Modern cars insulate and isolate
>> the occupants from the outside so much that an appreciation of the
>> real conditions is not made soon enough.
>>
>
> I read an article yesterday describing how reliant modern drivers are
> on ABS etc., failing to cope when put in an older car.
>
> http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/01/11/todays-drivers-suffer-without-high-tech-systems/
>
> Similarly, I might expect that when the conditions are beyond those
> automatic systems can cope with, the sudden loss of control is
> all the more difficult for the driver to handle.

Very strange. So you say a publication which gets a significant proportion
of its funding from car manufacturers is saying that 15 year old cars are
more risky to drive because they have no ABS, which is fair enough, and
because they skid in a slalom.

But hang on a minute, didn't they give them a rear wheel drive car to test
in the slalom, which would mean counterintuitive handling. Oh, maybe that's
why old cars are 'dangerous'.
--
Ambrose

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Adrian Godwin
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Gwyn Oakley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I also think that "modern" cars are a contributory factor. I remember
>> in old cars in winter you knew when it was cold outside as th heater
>> struggled to cope etc. Modern cars insulate and isolate the occupants
>> from the outside so much that an appreciation of the real conditions
>> is not made soon enough.
>
> I read an article yesterday describing how reliant modern drivers are
> on ABS etc., failing to cope when put in an older car.
>
http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/01/11/todays-drivers-suffer-without-high-tech-systems/

Ah, a fellow slashdotter, I see...

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Human history becomes more and more a race between
;; education and catastrophe.
H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"

 

[Phil Armstrong]

Ambrose Nankivell <[email protected]> wrote:
> Adrian Godwin wrote:
>> I read an article yesterday describing how reliant modern drivers are
>> on ABS etc., failing to cope when put in an older car.
>>
>> http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/01/11/todays-drivers-suffer-without-high-tech-systems/
>>
>> Similarly, I might expect that when the conditions are beyond those
>> automatic systems can cope with, the sudden loss of control is
>> all the more difficult for the driver to handle.
>
> Very strange. So you say a publication which gets a significant proportion
> of its funding from car manufacturers is saying that 15 year old cars are
> more risky to drive because they have no ABS, which is fair enough, and
> because they skid in a slalom.
>
> But hang on a minute, didn't they give them a rear wheel drive car to test
> in the slalom, which would mean counterintuitive handling. Oh, maybe that's
> why old cars are 'dangerous'.

Hah, you beat me to it

Yup: BWM == rear wheel drive => really difficult to control if you're
trying to push the limit & not used to driving a rwd car.

Phil

--
http://www.kantaka.co.uk/ .oOo. public key: http://www.kantaka.co.uk/gpg.txt

 

[The Luggage]

Adrian Godwin wrote:
> Gwyn Oakley <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I also think that "modern" cars are a contributory factor. I remember in
> > old cars in winter you knew when it was cold outside as th heater
> > struggled to cope etc. Modern cars insulate and isolate the occupants
> > from the outside so much that an appreciation of the real conditions is
> > not made soon enough.
> >
>
> I read an article yesterday describing how reliant modern drivers are
> on ABS etc., failing to cope when put in an older car.
[snip]

To put the other side... I commute in a 13 year old diesel Fiesta, with
no power steering, or ABS. I could have done with the ABS on Wednesday,
when someone pulled out in front of me then stopped. The road was wet,
and I slid the last 6-8 feet, and hit the back of the other car at ~5
mph. If I'd had ABS, I might have stopped short. Only "might", but it's
a possibility. I'm very aware of my car's limitations, and still wasn't
able to avoid the collision.

TL

 

[Adrian Godwin]

Ambrose Nankivell <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Very strange. So you say a publication which gets a significant proportion
> of its funding from car manufacturers is saying that 15 year old cars are
> more risky to drive because they have no ABS, which is fair enough, and
> because they skid in a slalom.
>
> But hang on a minute, didn't they give them a rear wheel drive car to test
> in the slalom, which would mean counterintuitive handling. Oh, maybe that's
> why old cars are 'dangerous'.

Good point, and if you read the article as 'you need to buy new cars to
drive safely' then a valid criticism.

But I read it as 'over-automated cars are dumbing-down drivers', which
is both a criticism of current manufacturers and the reason I thought
it relevant to this thread. Maybe that's not what they meant, though ..

-adrian

 

[Adrian Godwin]

Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ah, a fellow slashdotter, I see...
>

Guilty as charged

 

[Tony Raven]

The Luggage wrote:
> I'm very aware of my car's limitations, and still wasn't
> able to avoid the collision.
>

But nevertheless still chose not to learn about cadence braking which
may have prevented the collision.


--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

 

[JBB]

"Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The Luggage wrote:
>> I'm very aware of my car's limitations, and still wasn't
>> able to avoid the collision.
>>
>
> But nevertheless still chose not to learn about cadence braking which may
> have prevented the collision.
>
>
> --
> Tony
>
> "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
> right."
> - Lord Hailsham

It does pose the question "How do I learn about something I don't know
exists?" if you follow my meaning. I learnt about it completely by chance
some years after I started driving. I can't find it mentioned in the highway
code ( Just done a quick check) so how does the average motorist find out
about ?

Julia

 

[Tony Raven]

JBB wrote:
>
> It does pose the question "How do I learn about something I don't know
> exists?" if you follow my meaning. I learnt about it completely by chance
> some years after I started driving. I can't find it mentioned in the highway
> code ( Just done a quick check) so how does the average motorist find out
> about ?
>

By realising that the Driving Test is the start of developing your
driving skills, not the end. There are plenty of books, courses etc
providing advanced driving skills training. And if you rely on having
read the Highway Code as sufficient to control your first skid, then you
are going to come a cropper.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

 

[[email protected]]

JBB wrote:
>
> It does pose the question "How do I learn about something I don't know
> exists?" if you follow my meaning. I learnt about it completely by chance
> some years after I started driving. I can't find it mentioned in the highway
> code ( Just done a quick check) so how does the average motorist find out
> about ?
>

http://www.rospa.co.uk/roadsafety/refreshyourdriving/where.htm

Tim.