Hamilton verdict.



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JohnO said:
He was specifically warned, probably more than most, that trouble was on the way.

The CAS report talks about how much Hamilton and Phonak were warned:

"On 24 April 2004, [TH] underwent a UCI health test during the Liege-Bastogne-Liege race and his reading was a little high although it was thought to be due to 'dehydration.'
On 29 April 2004, [TH] had a UCI health test along with other members of the Phonak team and the readings were high ... another taken on 8 June 2004...
As a result of these test results, UCI held several meetings with [TH] and representatives from the Phonak teams. During the presentations at these meetings, Dr Zorzoli of the UCI warned that a test of red blood cell antigens was in the process of being validated as anti-doping test to detect an homologous blood transfusion. On 10 June 2004, UCI sent a warning letter to [TH] in which he was advised that 'the blood checks that took place during the Tour de Romandie 2004 ... showed an abnormal profile" and that the blood values showed "strong signs of possible manipulation." The letter warned [TH] that he would be "closedly monitored" in 2004....
At a meeting on 14 June 2004, Dr Zorzoli presented to [TH] and the team manager the results [of the flow cytometry tests] which were said to show mixed populations and again said that they would be watching [TH]. At this stage a final decision on the adoption and implementation of the HBT test had not been made by UCI, WADA or the IOC."

TH was pretty stupid. If he was doping, he should have stopped. If he was not doping, he should have sought to clear up the testing results he was being reported and warned about, before it reached his being "caught".
 
Excellent post... it does make you wonder what he was thinking... if innocent why not look further into these warnings... at least the team should have....

Our good friend Richard Virenque summed it up at the festina trials in 2000 : "We don't say doping. We say we are preparing for the race. To take drugs is to cheat. As long as the person doesn't test positive, they're not taking drugs."

musette said:
The CAS report talks about how much Hamilton and Phonak were warned:

"On 24 April 2004, [TH] underwent a UCI health test during the Liege-Bastogne-Liege race and his reading was a little high although it was thought to be due to 'dehydration.'
On 29 April 2004, [TH] had a UCI health test along with other members of the Phonak team and the readings were high ... another taken on 8 June 2004...
As a result of these test results, UCI held several meetings with [TH] and representatives from the Phonak teams. During the presentations at these meetings, Dr Zorzoli of the UCI warned that a test of red blood cell antigens was in the process of being validated as anti-doping test to detect an homologous blood transfusion. On 10 June 2004, UCI sent a warning letter to [TH] in which he was advised that 'the blood checks that took place during the Tour de Romandie 2004 ... showed an abnormal profile" and that the blood values showed "strong signs of possible manipulation." The letter warned [TH] that he would be "closedly monitored" in 2004....
At a meeting on 14 June 2004, Dr Zorzoli presented to [TH] and the team manager the results [of the flow cytometry tests] which were said to show mixed populations and again said that they would be watching [TH]. At this stage a final decision on the adoption and implementation of the HBT test had not been made by UCI, WADA or the IOC."

TH was pretty stupid. If he was doping, he should have stopped. If he was not doping, he should have sought to clear up the testing results he was being reported and warned about, before it reached his being "caught".
 
Tyler being guilty rips my heart out. He is such a likeable, scrappy competitor that you just want to get behind. That's why it has been hard to believe that he was that stupid and that brazen in his cheating. If I were clean and started getting letters like he got warning him early on. I would have wheeled out more doctors and lawyers than OJ had to establhish what was giving the goofy readings and get a medical exemption to ride with whatever it was. Instead, he kept riding, kept cheating, and acts all pathetic and mistreated when he is caught. This is the saddest doping case to me.

Also, I posted about this on another thread, the teams are getting off way to easy here. Teams could easily dope up a rider without the rider's knowledge and that's really scary because the rider clearly would take the fall. In a situation like this where the team must have been complicit in the doping scheme, they get off scot free again. The riders have everything to lose and the teams skate. This is not right.

If I were one of these riders, I would hire my own private doctor and never take an aspirin from anyone else. If I could afford it, I would also hire a private chef to make sure nobody tries anything that way. The cost is too high for riders to leave yourself so vulnerable.
 
I fairly sure when Tyler was being transfused with a pint of blood he knew what was going on...... because he was such 'a likeable, scrappy competitor' was why he thought he could get away with it... if he stayed at USPS he wouldn't of been caught...... you're right thou... its a very sad doping case and like Virenque he can't admit that he did it.... it took Virenque the threat of prison to finally admit after 2 and half years of denials that he doped... Tyler may never it admit what he did…… we may never know the full extent of what went on at Phonak but its good to see the law and the justice system catching up with this scurge on cycling…


barnstorm said:
Tyler being guilty rips my heart out. He is such a likeable, scrappy competitor that you just want to get behind. That's why it has been hard to believe that he was that stupid and that brazen in his cheating. If I were clean and started getting letters like he got warning him early on. I would have wheeled out more doctors and lawyers than OJ had to establhish what was giving the goofy readings and get a medical exemption to ride with whatever it was. Instead, he kept riding, kept cheating, and acts all pathetic and mistreated when he is caught. This is the saddest doping case to me.

Also, I posted about this on another thread, the teams are getting off way to easy here. Teams could easily dope up a rider without the rider's knowledge and that's really scary because the rider clearly would take the fall. In a situation like this where the team must have been complicit in the doping scheme, they get off scot free again. The riders have everything to lose and the teams skate. This is not right.

If I were one of these riders, I would hire my own private doctor and never take an aspirin from anyone else. If I could afford it, I would also hire a private chef to make sure nobody tries anything that way. The cost is too high for riders to leave yourself so vulnerable.
 
whiteboytrash said:
I fairly sure when Tyler was being transfused with a pint of blood he knew what was going on...... because he was such 'a likeable, scrappy competitor' was why he thought he could get away with it... if he stayed at USPS he wouldn't of been caught...... you're right thou... its a very sad doping case and like Virenque he can't admit that he did it.... it took Virenque the threat of prison to finally admit after 2 and half years of denials that he doped... Tyler may never it admit what he did…… we may never know the full extent of what went on at Phonak but its good to see the law and the justice system catching up with this scurge on cycling…
I am sure Tyler knew what was going on and agree with you there. I am just saying that some riders could be screwed by their teams and not know it and that the teams are not held accountable like the riders. Why is Phonak still in the protour when it clearly helped two of their riders dope? The fact that the tyler/perez results didn't result in an immediate subpoena of all team records and a full scale investigation into the part the team played in the matter supports my concern.
 
barnstorm said:
I am sure Tyler knew what was going on and agree with you there.

Phonak would have exposed itself to suit by TH if TH did not know what was going on. Can you imagine a team injection another person's blood into TH and TH not knowing about it, and what liability (if TH were to sue them) Phonak would be exposing itself to? The team would have definitely not done that.
 
musette said:
Phonak would have exposed itself to suit by TH if TH did not know what was going on. Can you imagine a team injection another person's blood into TH and TH not knowing about it, and what liability (if TH were to sue them) Phonak would be exposing itself to? The team would have definitely not done that.
I would love to believe that a team would never do this and that they would be too exposed to liability to think about it. But how would a rider prove where they got the dope in their system if they didn't know it was there? Couldn't a team carefully conceal from everyone what they concealed from the rider. I am not saying this does happen but the fact is that the riders bear the brunt of the risk here and teams skate free.
 
barnstorm said:
I would love to believe that a team would never do this and that they would be too exposed to liability to think about it. But how would a rider prove where they got the dope in their system if they didn't know it was there? Couldn't a team carefully conceal from everyone what they concealed from the rider. I am not saying this does happen but the fact is that the riders bear the brunt of the risk here and teams skate free.
didn't the owner of phonak fire all his team management following the TH scandal? i guess that way the team could say "we got rid of the bad seeds" and keep doing the same stuff until they get caught again
 
The reason Festina organised programmed doping in their team was for safety.... the riders were going off to any old doctors and others riders to get there hands on all sort of drugs and methods of doping.... this why Festina brought it 'in house' so they could keep control of it and protect the riders safety from taking too much or the wrong mix...... I believe teams have smarted up now because of the threat of prison and the riders like TH are acting alone..... The CAS report did mention that Phonak were conducting there own blood tests but I'm not sure if they were testing for blood manipulation and not just hemocrit levels...

The probably the last we have seen of programmed team doping was at USPS where we now know that Armstrong, Hamilton, Heras have since been caught....


moviekindoflife said:
didn't the owner of phonak fire all his team management following the TH scandal? i guess that way the team could say "we got rid of the bad seeds" and keep doing the same stuff until they get caught again
 
barnstorm said:
Tyler being guilty rips my heart out. He is such a likeable, scrappy competitor that you just want to get behind. That's why it has been hard to believe that he was that stupid and that brazen in his cheating. If I were clean and started getting letters like he got warning him early on. I would have wheeled out more doctors and lawyers than OJ had to establhish what was giving the goofy readings and get a medical exemption to ride with whatever it was. Instead, he kept riding, kept cheating, and acts all pathetic and mistreated when he is caught. This is the saddest doping case to me.

Also, I posted about this on another thread, the teams are getting off way to easy here. Teams could easily dope up a rider without the rider's knowledge and that's really scary because the rider clearly would take the fall. In a situation like this where the team must have been complicit in the doping scheme, they get off scot free again. The riders have everything to lose and the teams skate. This is not right.

If I were one of these riders, I would hire my own private doctor and never take an aspirin from anyone else. If I could afford it, I would also hire a private chef to make sure nobody tries anything that way. The cost is too high for riders to leave yourself so vulnerable.

TH certainly appears to be quite a nice person.
He seemed pretty levelheaded, modest and hardworking.
On a personal level it is a tragedy for him what happened at Phonak.

Given all that, I find it perplexing to say the least that a guy like TH would
allow himself to end up in his current situation.
He is academically bright (as far as I am aware).
But all reason can go out the door when glory/money/fame come knocking.

I agree with you regarding the team and retribution.
It is unfair that the cyclist incurs the penlty while the team go unpunished.

I have called for draconian sanctions for rider caught doping.
I think those same draconian sanctions are required for teams, with riders caught doping.
 
limerickman said:
I have called for draconian sanctions for rider caught doping.
I think those same draconian sanctions are required for teams, with riders caught doping.
Yes that is the big problem (teams) and the UCI knows that very well and doesn't do anything....
 
whiteboytrash said:
The reason Festina organised programmed doping in their team was for safety.... the riders were going off to any old doctors and others riders to get there hands on all sort of drugs and methods of doping.... this why Festina brought it 'in house' so they could keep control of it and protect the riders safety from taking too much or the wrong mix...... I believe teams have smarted up now because of the threat of prison and the riders like TH are acting alone..... The CAS report did mention that Phonak were conducting there own blood tests but I'm not sure if they were testing for blood manipulation and not just hemocrit levels...

The probably the last we have seen of programmed team doping was at USPS where we now know that Armstrong, Hamilton, Heras have since been caught....

I think Phonaks role in this case, WBT, is evident.
The team were involved - two riders blood doping independently of the team?
Seems implausible that the team didn't have any involvement.
 
limerickman said:
I think Phonaks role in this case, WBT, is evident.
The team were involved - two riders blood doping independently of the team?
Seems implausible that the team didn't have any involvement.
From the inside: there where 2 teams warned (by the UCI, ofcourse not official!) in 2004, a team from Switzerland (Phonak) and a team from Spain(Euskatel). In the Spanish team nobody got caught for a while (last 6 months of 2004) since they have listen to the warning. They did really bad in the TDF 2004 (Mayo). The other team didn't listen and Perez and Hamilton got caught.

Teams get these kind of warnings as it's getting "to obvlious". Guys who win stages with broken collar bones and stuff like hat. I've got this information from inside the UCI. The UCI is not intrested in the fight against doping, they are only intrested in no publicity about doping.
 
cyclingheroes said:
From the inside: there where 2 teams warned (by the UCI, ofcourse not official!) in 2004, a team from Switzerland (Phonak) and a team from Spain(Euskatel). In the Spanish team nobody got caught for a while (last 6 months of 2004) since they have listen to the warning. They did really bad in the TDF 2004 (Mayo). The other team didn't listen and Perez and Hamilton got caught.

Teams get these kind of warnings as it's getting "to obvlious". Guys who win stages with broken collar bones and stuff like hat. I've got this information from inside the UCI. The UCI is not intrested in the fight against doping, they are only intrested in no publicity about doping.
Good point... Both Mayo's and TH's season was on the line after the Tour.... Mayo chose to go and hide which was probably a good idea and TH decided to push the envelope and got caught.... at least he got a gold medal out of it !

The issue with the UCI is WADA’s bone of contention. The very body that promotes the sport shouldn’t be conducting doping tests. This is where we must take out hats off the Spanish Federation….




So whats the story with Perez ? Is he appealing his case ?
 
cyclingheroes said:
The UCI is not intrested in the fight against doping, they are only intrested in no publicity about doping.

100%.

The UCI have been derelict in their duty of care to the sport, the riders.
I have long been an advocate for scrapping the UCI because the sport is incapable of regulating itself and the sport.
 
I feel ambivalent about punishing the team. Because the only effective sanction would be something like "two or three strikes (riders caught) and you are out of the ProTour". However, if that sanction actually materializes and the riders themselves were doping without the organized sanction of the team, then the sanction unfairly penalizes the other riders on the team who either have to look for another team (possibly mid-season, which is impracticable) or stick with a downgraded team.
 
musette said:
I feel ambivalent about punishing the team. Because the only effective sanction would be something like "two or three strikes (riders caught) and you are out of the ProTour". However, if that sanction actually materializes and the riders themselves were doping without the organized sanction of the team, then the sanction unfairly penalizes the other riders on the team who either have to look for another team (possibly mid-season, which is impracticable) or stick with a downgraded team.
I agree generally with the concerns you express. Did you decide that this was not a red herring after all? I only said that when a rider is caught doping, it should trigger an immediate and comprehensive investigation of the team. The teams contract with the UCI should promise to open up all team records to investigation if a rider is caught doping. That protects the team by giving them a chance to be proven clean and prevents them from getting off easy if they help sell one of their riders down the river.
 
limerickman said:
TH certainly appears to be quite a nice person.
He seemed pretty levelheaded, modest and hardworking.
On a personal level it is a tragedy for him what happened at Phonak.

Given all that, I find it perplexing to say the least that a guy like TH would
allow himself to end up in his current situation.
He is academically bright (as far as I am aware).
But all reason can go out the door when glory/money/fame come knocking.

A friend just read a book about USPS called Lance's War or something like that. I have never heard of it. It describes a lot about the experiences of the ex-posties, their experiences on and off the usps team. According to this book, Tyler showed up at the 2004 tour in unbelieveable shape, really ready to battle. Wanted it really badly etc. that Ventoux TT in the Dauphine was good confirmation of that. When he fell on his back and had to scrap the tour, I can see how frustrated he must have been. A plausible argument for why he turned to the dark side.... unless you look at the warnings early in the season and think it started well before the tour.
 
musette said:
I feel ambivalent about punishing the team. Because the only effective sanction would be something like "two or three strikes (riders caught) and you are out of the ProTour". However, if that sanction actually materializes and the riders themselves were doping without the organized sanction of the team, then the sanction unfairly penalizes the other riders on the team who either have to look for another team (possibly mid-season, which is impracticable) or stick with a downgraded team.

If past investigations are anything to go by - doping is done as part of team policy.

Festina, TVM, Kelme to name but a few employed a team doping procurement and doping strategy.

The allegations against USPS/DC appear to follow the same premise ie team strategy to dope.
 
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