Hamilton - why did he crash?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Callistus Valerius, Dec 13, 2005.

  1. Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
    But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often? Was
    he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start late,
    in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
    mystery for me.
     
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  2. Scott

    Scott Guest

    He probably didn't crash that much more often than many other riders.
    But, since he had become a top rider his actions were covered in the
    media moreso than others, so we were made aware of each and every one
    of his crashes.

    He did have a knack for falling off when it really mattered that he
    didn't.
     
  3. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    One of the problems with extreme training and dieting is that unless
    you've inherited very strong bones you will lose calcium and get
    progressively weaker bones. I think that most of the guys on the top
    rung of the ladder are close to having osteoporosis.

    I'm lucky to have very strong bones. Often I wonder if that was because
    I was clumsy growing up and fell a whole lot or whether that has no
    connection whatsoever. I was always the smallest one in school until
    near my senior year in which I grew about a foot. I even grew two
    inches between 19 and 22 while in the Air Force.

    Notice that when Jan and Lance fall they often don't even seem to get
    road rash! Now that's something I always had a problem with. If I touch
    the ground I'm bleeding. Thin skin perhaps but of course not exactly in
    that way.
     
  4. Callistus Valerius wrote:
    > Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
    > But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often? Was
    > he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start late,
    > in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
    > mystery for me.


    I think its because you dont realize how tiny he is till you see him up
    close. I think that part of it is just get shoved around in the pack,
    or being nervous anticipating getting shoved around and then you crash
    your own self.

    J
     
  5. RicodJour

    RicodJour Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote:
    > One of the problems with extreme training and dieting is that unless
    > you've inherited very strong bones you will lose calcium and get
    > progressively weaker bones. I think that most of the guys on the top
    > rung of the ladder are close to having osteoporosis.
    >
    > I'm lucky to have very strong bones. Often I wonder if that was because
    > I was clumsy growing up and fell a whole lot or whether that has no
    > connection whatsoever. I was always the smallest one in school until
    > near my senior year in which I grew about a foot. I even grew two
    > inches between 19 and 22 while in the Air Force.
    >
    > Notice that when Jan and Lance fall they often don't even seem to get
    > road rash! Now that's something I always had a problem with. If I touch
    > the ground I'm bleeding. Thin skin perhaps but of course not exactly in
    > that way.


    It's always been apparent that you were boneheaded and thin-skinned.
    :)

    R
     
  6. In article
    <[email protected]>,
    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > One of the problems with extreme training and dieting is that unless
    > you've inherited very strong bones you will lose calcium and get
    > progressively weaker bones. I think that most of the guys on the top
    > rung of the ladder are close to having osteoporosis.
    >
    > I'm lucky to have very strong bones. Often I wonder if that was because
    > I was clumsy growing up and fell a whole lot or whether that has no


    Could be nutrition. Youth, early and late, is when we grow
    bones and develop nutrition habits. Bones develop from
    use, but not over-use.

    > connection whatsoever. I was always the smallest one in school until
    > near my senior year in which I grew about a foot. I even grew two
    > inches between 19 and 22 while in the Air Force.
    >
    > Notice that when Jan and Lance fall they often don't even seem to get
    > road rash! Now that's something I always had a problem with. If I touch
    > the ground I'm bleeding. Thin skin perhaps but of course not exactly in
    > that way.


    When I was very young my Dad taught me to do forward and
    reverse somersaults. Later I took a few months of judo.
    I've taken some hairy falls, but the worst result was a
    cracked rib. I've heard that airborne training helps also.
    The idea is not to resist the fall.

    --
    Michael Press
     
  7. On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:47:51 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

    >The idea is not to resist the fall.


    You a Satanist or something?

    BTW, a word of warning to all - noses aren't bone, they're cartilage.
    They don't get stronger, they just keep breaking...

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...
     
  8. Scott

    Scott Guest

    Michael Press wrote:
    > In article
    > <[email protected]>,
    > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > One of the problems with extreme training and dieting is that unless
    > > you've inherited very strong bones you will lose calcium and get
    > > progressively weaker bones. I think that most of the guys on the top
    > > rung of the ladder are close to having osteoporosis.
    > >
    > > I'm lucky to have very strong bones. Often I wonder if that was because
    > > I was clumsy growing up and fell a whole lot or whether that has no

    >
    > Could be nutrition. Youth, early and late, is when we grow
    > bones and develop nutrition habits. Bones develop from
    > use, but not over-use.
    >
    > > connection whatsoever. I was always the smallest one in school until
    > > near my senior year in which I grew about a foot. I even grew two
    > > inches between 19 and 22 while in the Air Force.
    > >
    > > Notice that when Jan and Lance fall they often don't even seem to get
    > > road rash! Now that's something I always had a problem with. If I touch
    > > the ground I'm bleeding. Thin skin perhaps but of course not exactly in
    > > that way.

    >
    > When I was very young my Dad taught me to do forward and
    > reverse somersaults. Later I took a few months of judo.
    > I've taken some hairy falls, but the worst result was a
    > cracked rib. I've heard that airborne training helps also.
    > The idea is not to resist the fall.
    >
    > --
    > Michael Press


    I don't buy your assertion. I spent two years in high school doing
    judo, then spent 3 years as a paratrooper after college, so I 've had
    tons of experience either falling down or being thrown down. I've
    also had some pretty nasty crashes while cycling, to include banging up
    my shoulders pretty badly. Ever other cyclist I've ever seen fall in
    such a way as my last three crashes broke a collarbone. Most people
    don't have road rash on top of their shoulders, but I've got it on
    both.

    I don't think I landed all that well or rolled out of the crashes all
    that gracefully. If my ability to fall well has anything to do with
    not hurting myself, it's probably more because my reflexes are so
    frikkin slow that it's over before I have time to tense up.

    Luckily, I've never broken any bones (ever, not just cycling) but I
    attribute that to a diet very high in calcium rich foods (e.g. lots of
    dairy) and a life spent in some sort of contact sport or weight
    training (both of which are alleged to contribute to dense bones). Or,
    maybe I was just really lucky that I haven't broken anything yet.
     
  9. routebeer

    routebeer Guest

    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > One of the problems with extreme training and dieting is that unless
    > you've inherited very strong bones you will lose calcium and get
    > progressively weaker bones.


    Little bit of jogging or mtn. biking will help to mitigate that...
     
  10. routebeer

    routebeer Guest

    "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:eek:[email protected]
    > Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
    > But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often?

    Was
    > he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start

    late,
    > in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
    > mystery for me.


    I'm sure the guilt of being a cheater kept him from keeping the focus needed
    not to crash and burn. The only question that should be asked is, does
    ekimov deserve gold?
     
  11. sonarrat

    sonarrat Guest

    Callistus Valerius wrote:

    > Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
    > But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often? Was
    > he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start late,
    > in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
    > mystery for me.


    He did start late, but I don't think that had much to do with it.
     
  12. Laz

    Laz Guest

    "sonarrat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Callistus Valerius wrote:
    >
    > > Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about

    him.
    > > But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often?

    Was
    > > he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start

    late,
    > > in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always

    a
    > > mystery for me.

    >
    > He did start late, but I don't think that had much to do with it.


    some crash-prone riders (Bobby Julich, for example) have been critised for
    being so (crash-prone) because the position they adopted on their bike is
    less stable

    Laz
     
  13. Ken Prager

    Ken Prager Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
    > But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often? Was
    > he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start late,
    > in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
    > mystery for me.


    I think in Tyler's case a factor is that he doesn't learn that fast.
    Two or three seasons ago, when he had a diary on VeloNews, I recall
    reading that he crashed at least three times in potholes while
    motopacing behind Haven. I remember thinking at the time that the first
    one was an "accident" but that the other two were because he was a
    dumbass.

    KP
     
  14. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "Ken Prager" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
    >> But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often?
    >> Was
    >> he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start
    >> late,
    >> in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always
    >> a
    >> mystery for me.

    >
    > I think in Tyler's case a factor is that he doesn't learn that fast.
    > Two or three seasons ago, when he had a diary on VeloNews, I recall
    > reading that he crashed at least three times in potholes while
    > motopacing behind Haven. I remember thinking at the time that the first
    > one was an "accident" but that the other two were because he was a
    > dumbass.
    >
    > KP


    Doesn't that indicate that Haven is the dumbass? When you're pacing behind
    a vehicle you really do rely on the pilot to keep you safe from things like
    that.
     
  15. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On 13 Dec 2005 14:23:36 -0800, "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:


    >I don't buy your assertion. I spent two years in high school doing
    >judo, then spent 3 years as a paratrooper after college, so I 've had
    >tons of experience either falling down or being thrown down. I've
    >also had some pretty nasty crashes while cycling, to include banging up
    >my shoulders pretty badly. Ever other cyclist I've ever seen fall in
    >such a way as my last three crashes broke a collarbone. Most people
    >don't have road rash on top of their shoulders, but I've got it on
    >both.


    You contradict yourself - the unbroken collarbones and scuffed back and
    shoulders tell me that you fall relatively skillfully.

    >I don't think I landed all that well or rolled out of the crashes all
    >that gracefully. If my ability to fall well has anything to do with
    >not hurting myself, it's probably more because my reflexes are so
    >frikkin slow that it's over before I have time to tense up.


    Here's the thing, in a real crash nobody's going to do a smooth and elegant
    rollout like some kid in a parkours video; and as awkward as it might look, it
    always feels worse. Truth is, there's a tremendous difference between a skilled
    and unskilled fall, even if the skilled faller feels like it went very badly.
    The lack of broken wrists and collarbones alone is telling.

    What you and I would consider "not all that skillful" is an entire world of
    agility beyond the abject lack of gymnastic skills found in many endurance sport
    athletes. Guys don't gravitate toward the suffer sports because they're nimble.
    Add in the borderline malnutrition of a guy like Tyler Hamilton and it isn't
    even close. Then, there's no way on earth either of us could climb with him. The
    same healthy, high-density skeleton and upper body strength that keeps us unhurt
    is pretty well wasted in his specialty.

    Ron

    >Luckily, I've never broken any bones (ever, not just cycling) but I
    >attribute that to a diet very high in calcium rich foods (e.g. lots of
    >dairy) and a life spent in some sort of contact sport or weight
    >training (both of which are alleged to contribute to dense bones). Or,
    >maybe I was just really lucky that I haven't broken anything yet.
     
  16. RicodJour

    RicodJour Guest

    B. Lafferty wrote:
    > "Ken Prager" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > I think in Tyler's case a factor is that he doesn't learn that fast.
    > > Two or three seasons ago, when he had a diary on VeloNews, I recall
    > > reading that he crashed at least three times in potholes while
    > > motopacing behind Haven. I remember thinking at the time that the first
    > > one was an "accident" but that the other two were because he was a
    > > dumbass.
    > >
    > > KP

    >
    > Doesn't that indicate that Haven is the dumbass? When you're pacing behind
    > a vehicle you really do rely on the pilot to keep you safe from things like
    > that.


    Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

    Maybe she was hoping to collect some insurance money.

    R
     
  17. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > B. Lafferty wrote:
    >> "Ken Prager" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> >
    >> > I think in Tyler's case a factor is that he doesn't learn that fast.
    >> > Two or three seasons ago, when he had a diary on VeloNews, I recall
    >> > reading that he crashed at least three times in potholes while
    >> > motopacing behind Haven. I remember thinking at the time that the
    >> > first
    >> > one was an "accident" but that the other two were because he was a
    >> > dumbass.
    >> >
    >> > KP

    >>
    >> Doesn't that indicate that Haven is the dumbass? When you're pacing
    >> behind
    >> a vehicle you really do rely on the pilot to keep you safe from things
    >> like
    >> that.

    >
    > Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
    >
    > Maybe she was hoping to collect some insurance money.
    >
    > R


    Interesting point. Perhaps she was also channeling Tugboat.
     
  18. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:36:36 GMT, "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    > Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
    >But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often? Was
    >he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start late,
    >in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
    >mystery for me.


    He lacks the upper body strength to throw the bike and himself around in a
    critical moment and lacks the strength and bone mass to avoid injury when that
    critical moment turns into a crash. You can knock him off the bike with a well
    flung ping pong ball.

    He belongs to a style, a class of extremely emaciated, somewhat malnourished
    riders that has always sort of puzzled me.

    Obviously, excess body mass is a detriment. But it is not the stick figures like
    Rasmussen and Hamilton winning big races is it, not the big tours and certainly
    not the classics. Hamilton could TT on dope, but we know that's not his normal
    mode and we know how many other people didn't show up that day. Guys like
    Ullrich and Armstrong are freeking linebackers by comparison and beat them in
    every discipline.

    Anyway, I'm not an expert, but a lot of the starvation approach seems highly
    counterproductive. Ya gotta be relatively healthy and uninjured on raceday to
    win. If an extra 3 kilos of muscle make that possible you just have to make
    that trade-off - it slows you less than broken bones will.

    Now maybe Hamilton truly sucks if he picks up a few pounds, I don't believe it.
    Or, maybe he and others indulging in some anorexic tendencies. Either way, I
    just don't get it.

    Ron
     
  19. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    Maybe you ought to try motorpacing behind Haven some time. Totally
    aside from certain physical characteristics that might cause one to
    lose concentration, you cannot see ahead and have to rely upon the pace
    driver to keep you clear of danger. Potholes that a motorbike can't
    even feel can crash a bicycle at speed.
     
  20. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    RonSonic
    "it is not the stick figures like Rasmussen and Hamilton winning big
    races is it, not the big tours and certainly not the classics."

    You mean like the Olympic TT, L-B-L and Tour de Suisse?

    Ron, get real, there isn't a lot of distinguishing features about the
    physique of winning riders except that they generally have low body fat
    indexes. Indurain was a really tall and relatively large guy while
    Hinault is small. LeMond was sort of chunky for a Touer winner in '89
    and '90 and Anqutil was thin as a rail.

    And even that begs the question - how is Petacchi and before him
    Cipolini winning? Who would tip a monster like Axel Merckx or Magnus
    Backstedt to win major races? And how do you compare them to Roberto
    Heras? Or Marco Pantani?
     
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