Hamilton - why did he crash?



C

Callistus Valerius

Guest
Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often? Was
he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start late,
in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
mystery for me.
 
S

Scott

Guest
He probably didn't crash that much more often than many other riders.
But, since he had become a top rider his actions were covered in the
media moreso than others, so we were made aware of each and every one
of his crashes.

He did have a knack for falling off when it really mattered that he
didn't.
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
One of the problems with extreme training and dieting is that unless
you've inherited very strong bones you will lose calcium and get
progressively weaker bones. I think that most of the guys on the top
rung of the ladder are close to having osteoporosis.

I'm lucky to have very strong bones. Often I wonder if that was because
I was clumsy growing up and fell a whole lot or whether that has no
connection whatsoever. I was always the smallest one in school until
near my senior year in which I grew about a foot. I even grew two
inches between 19 and 22 while in the Air Force.

Notice that when Jan and Lance fall they often don't even seem to get
road rash! Now that's something I always had a problem with. If I touch
the ground I'm bleeding. Thin skin perhaps but of course not exactly in
that way.
 
J

jerry in vermont

Guest
Callistus Valerius wrote:
> Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
> But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often? Was
> he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start late,
> in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
> mystery for me.


I think its because you dont realize how tiny he is till you see him up
close. I think that part of it is just get shoved around in the pack,
or being nervous anticipating getting shoved around and then you crash
your own self.

J
 
R

RicodJour

Guest
Tom Kunich wrote:
> One of the problems with extreme training and dieting is that unless
> you've inherited very strong bones you will lose calcium and get
> progressively weaker bones. I think that most of the guys on the top
> rung of the ladder are close to having osteoporosis.
>
> I'm lucky to have very strong bones. Often I wonder if that was because
> I was clumsy growing up and fell a whole lot or whether that has no
> connection whatsoever. I was always the smallest one in school until
> near my senior year in which I grew about a foot. I even grew two
> inches between 19 and 22 while in the Air Force.
>
> Notice that when Jan and Lance fall they often don't even seem to get
> road rash! Now that's something I always had a problem with. If I touch
> the ground I'm bleeding. Thin skin perhaps but of course not exactly in
> that way.


It's always been apparent that you were boneheaded and thin-skinned.
:)

R
 
M

Michael Press

Guest
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote:

> One of the problems with extreme training and dieting is that unless
> you've inherited very strong bones you will lose calcium and get
> progressively weaker bones. I think that most of the guys on the top
> rung of the ladder are close to having osteoporosis.
>
> I'm lucky to have very strong bones. Often I wonder if that was because
> I was clumsy growing up and fell a whole lot or whether that has no


Could be nutrition. Youth, early and late, is when we grow
bones and develop nutrition habits. Bones develop from
use, but not over-use.

> connection whatsoever. I was always the smallest one in school until
> near my senior year in which I grew about a foot. I even grew two
> inches between 19 and 22 while in the Air Force.
>
> Notice that when Jan and Lance fall they often don't even seem to get
> road rash! Now that's something I always had a problem with. If I touch
> the ground I'm bleeding. Thin skin perhaps but of course not exactly in
> that way.


When I was very young my Dad taught me to do forward and
reverse somersaults. Later I took a few months of judo.
I've taken some hairy falls, but the worst result was a
cracked rib. I've heard that airborne training helps also.
The idea is not to resist the fall.

--
Michael Press
 
C

Curtis L. Russell

Guest
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:47:51 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

>The idea is not to resist the fall.


You a Satanist or something?

BTW, a word of warning to all - noses aren't bone, they're cartilage.
They don't get stronger, they just keep breaking...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
S

Scott

Guest
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > One of the problems with extreme training and dieting is that unless
> > you've inherited very strong bones you will lose calcium and get
> > progressively weaker bones. I think that most of the guys on the top
> > rung of the ladder are close to having osteoporosis.
> >
> > I'm lucky to have very strong bones. Often I wonder if that was because
> > I was clumsy growing up and fell a whole lot or whether that has no

>
> Could be nutrition. Youth, early and late, is when we grow
> bones and develop nutrition habits. Bones develop from
> use, but not over-use.
>
> > connection whatsoever. I was always the smallest one in school until
> > near my senior year in which I grew about a foot. I even grew two
> > inches between 19 and 22 while in the Air Force.
> >
> > Notice that when Jan and Lance fall they often don't even seem to get
> > road rash! Now that's something I always had a problem with. If I touch
> > the ground I'm bleeding. Thin skin perhaps but of course not exactly in
> > that way.

>
> When I was very young my Dad taught me to do forward and
> reverse somersaults. Later I took a few months of judo.
> I've taken some hairy falls, but the worst result was a
> cracked rib. I've heard that airborne training helps also.
> The idea is not to resist the fall.
>
> --
> Michael Press


I don't buy your assertion. I spent two years in high school doing
judo, then spent 3 years as a paratrooper after college, so I 've had
tons of experience either falling down or being thrown down. I've
also had some pretty nasty crashes while cycling, to include banging up
my shoulders pretty badly. Ever other cyclist I've ever seen fall in
such a way as my last three crashes broke a collarbone. Most people
don't have road rash on top of their shoulders, but I've got it on
both.

I don't think I landed all that well or rolled out of the crashes all
that gracefully. If my ability to fall well has anything to do with
not hurting myself, it's probably more because my reflexes are so
frikkin slow that it's over before I have time to tense up.

Luckily, I've never broken any bones (ever, not just cycling) but I
attribute that to a diet very high in calcium rich foods (e.g. lots of
dairy) and a life spent in some sort of contact sport or weight
training (both of which are alleged to contribute to dense bones). Or,
maybe I was just really lucky that I haven't broken anything yet.
 
R

routebeer

Guest
"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> One of the problems with extreme training and dieting is that unless
> you've inherited very strong bones you will lose calcium and get
> progressively weaker bones.


Little bit of jogging or mtn. biking will help to mitigate that...
 
R

routebeer

Guest
"Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]
> Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
> But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often?

Was
> he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start

late,
> in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
> mystery for me.


I'm sure the guilt of being a cheater kept him from keeping the focus needed
not to crash and burn. The only question that should be asked is, does
ekimov deserve gold?
 
S

sonarrat

Guest
Callistus Valerius wrote:

> Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
> But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often? Was
> he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start late,
> in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
> mystery for me.


He did start late, but I don't think that had much to do with it.
 
L

Laz

Guest
"sonarrat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>
> > Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about

him.
> > But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often?

Was
> > he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start

late,
> > in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always

a
> > mystery for me.

>
> He did start late, but I don't think that had much to do with it.


some crash-prone riders (Bobby Julich, for example) have been critised for
being so (crash-prone) because the position they adopted on their bike is
less stable

Laz
 
K

Ken Prager

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
"Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
> But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often? Was
> he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start late,
> in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
> mystery for me.


I think in Tyler's case a factor is that he doesn't learn that fast.
Two or three seasons ago, when he had a diary on VeloNews, I recall
reading that he crashed at least three times in potholes while
motopacing behind Haven. I remember thinking at the time that the first
one was an "accident" but that the other two were because he was a
dumbass.

KP
 
B

B. Lafferty

Guest
"Ken Prager" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
>> But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often?
>> Was
>> he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start
>> late,
>> in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always
>> a
>> mystery for me.

>
> I think in Tyler's case a factor is that he doesn't learn that fast.
> Two or three seasons ago, when he had a diary on VeloNews, I recall
> reading that he crashed at least three times in potholes while
> motopacing behind Haven. I remember thinking at the time that the first
> one was an "accident" but that the other two were because he was a
> dumbass.
>
> KP


Doesn't that indicate that Haven is the dumbass? When you're pacing behind
a vehicle you really do rely on the pilot to keep you safe from things like
that.
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On 13 Dec 2005 14:23:36 -0800, "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:


>I don't buy your assertion. I spent two years in high school doing
>judo, then spent 3 years as a paratrooper after college, so I 've had
>tons of experience either falling down or being thrown down. I've
>also had some pretty nasty crashes while cycling, to include banging up
>my shoulders pretty badly. Ever other cyclist I've ever seen fall in
>such a way as my last three crashes broke a collarbone. Most people
>don't have road rash on top of their shoulders, but I've got it on
>both.


You contradict yourself - the unbroken collarbones and scuffed back and
shoulders tell me that you fall relatively skillfully.

>I don't think I landed all that well or rolled out of the crashes all
>that gracefully. If my ability to fall well has anything to do with
>not hurting myself, it's probably more because my reflexes are so
>frikkin slow that it's over before I have time to tense up.


Here's the thing, in a real crash nobody's going to do a smooth and elegant
rollout like some kid in a parkours video; and as awkward as it might look, it
always feels worse. Truth is, there's a tremendous difference between a skilled
and unskilled fall, even if the skilled faller feels like it went very badly.
The lack of broken wrists and collarbones alone is telling.

What you and I would consider "not all that skillful" is an entire world of
agility beyond the abject lack of gymnastic skills found in many endurance sport
athletes. Guys don't gravitate toward the suffer sports because they're nimble.
Add in the borderline malnutrition of a guy like Tyler Hamilton and it isn't
even close. Then, there's no way on earth either of us could climb with him. The
same healthy, high-density skeleton and upper body strength that keeps us unhurt
is pretty well wasted in his specialty.

Ron

>Luckily, I've never broken any bones (ever, not just cycling) but I
>attribute that to a diet very high in calcium rich foods (e.g. lots of
>dairy) and a life spent in some sort of contact sport or weight
>training (both of which are alleged to contribute to dense bones). Or,
>maybe I was just really lucky that I haven't broken anything yet.
 
R

RicodJour

Guest
B. Lafferty wrote:
> "Ken Prager" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > I think in Tyler's case a factor is that he doesn't learn that fast.
> > Two or three seasons ago, when he had a diary on VeloNews, I recall
> > reading that he crashed at least three times in potholes while
> > motopacing behind Haven. I remember thinking at the time that the first
> > one was an "accident" but that the other two were because he was a
> > dumbass.
> >
> > KP

>
> Doesn't that indicate that Haven is the dumbass? When you're pacing behind
> a vehicle you really do rely on the pilot to keep you safe from things like
> that.


Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Maybe she was hoping to collect some insurance money.

R
 
B

B. Lafferty

Guest
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> B. Lafferty wrote:
>> "Ken Prager" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >
>> > I think in Tyler's case a factor is that he doesn't learn that fast.
>> > Two or three seasons ago, when he had a diary on VeloNews, I recall
>> > reading that he crashed at least three times in potholes while
>> > motopacing behind Haven. I remember thinking at the time that the
>> > first
>> > one was an "accident" but that the other two were because he was a
>> > dumbass.
>> >
>> > KP

>>
>> Doesn't that indicate that Haven is the dumbass? When you're pacing
>> behind
>> a vehicle you really do rely on the pilot to keep you safe from things
>> like
>> that.

>
> Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
>
> Maybe she was hoping to collect some insurance money.
>
> R


Interesting point. Perhaps she was also channeling Tugboat.
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:36:36 GMT, "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Since Tyler is out of cycling, there isn't much discussion about him.
>But I was always curious, or if anyone knows, why he crashed so often? Was
>he a poor descender, poor bicycling skills? If so, why? Did he start late,
>in cycling? Had to take more risks, to be competitive? That was always a
>mystery for me.


He lacks the upper body strength to throw the bike and himself around in a
critical moment and lacks the strength and bone mass to avoid injury when that
critical moment turns into a crash. You can knock him off the bike with a well
flung ping pong ball.

He belongs to a style, a class of extremely emaciated, somewhat malnourished
riders that has always sort of puzzled me.

Obviously, excess body mass is a detriment. But it is not the stick figures like
Rasmussen and Hamilton winning big races is it, not the big tours and certainly
not the classics. Hamilton could TT on dope, but we know that's not his normal
mode and we know how many other people didn't show up that day. Guys like
Ullrich and Armstrong are freeking linebackers by comparison and beat them in
every discipline.

Anyway, I'm not an expert, but a lot of the starvation approach seems highly
counterproductive. Ya gotta be relatively healthy and uninjured on raceday to
win. If an extra 3 kilos of muscle make that possible you just have to make
that trade-off - it slows you less than broken bones will.

Now maybe Hamilton truly sucks if he picks up a few pounds, I don't believe it.
Or, maybe he and others indulging in some anorexic tendencies. Either way, I
just don't get it.

Ron
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
Maybe you ought to try motorpacing behind Haven some time. Totally
aside from certain physical characteristics that might cause one to
lose concentration, you cannot see ahead and have to rely upon the pace
driver to keep you clear of danger. Potholes that a motorbike can't
even feel can crash a bicycle at speed.
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
RonSonic
"it is not the stick figures like Rasmussen and Hamilton winning big
races is it, not the big tours and certainly not the classics."

You mean like the Olympic TT, L-B-L and Tour de Suisse?

Ron, get real, there isn't a lot of distinguishing features about the
physique of winning riders except that they generally have low body fat
indexes. Indurain was a really tall and relatively large guy while
Hinault is small. LeMond was sort of chunky for a Touer winner in '89
and '90 and Anqutil was thin as a rail.

And even that begs the question - how is Petacchi and before him
Cipolini winning? Who would tip a monster like Axel Merckx or Magnus
Backstedt to win major races? And how do you compare them to Roberto
Heras? Or Marco Pantani?