Hammerstrength v free weights

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by gman99, Feb 21, 2005.

  1. gman99

    gman99 Guest

    Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
    hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??

    For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
    scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
     
    Tags:


  2. Peter Allen

    Peter Allen Guest

    "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
    > hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    >
    > For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    > that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
    > scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.


    long answer:

    Assuming you mean the machine thingy, and assuming that pushing 200lb on the
    machine actually requires 200lb upwards force on the handles (which isn't
    necessarily true).

    There isn't really an answer. You might have enough tricep / pec strength to
    push 200lbs up, but not enough strength in other muscles to keep the bar
    from falling onto your stomach or over your head. In which case your max
    bench would be <200lbs.

    On the other hand, you might have developed the required stabilisers enough
    from some other exercise, and then you would be able to bench 200lbs. But
    having enough strength in the stabiliser muscles won't change what you do on
    the machine where they're not needed, so there won't be some formula you can
    use to compare.

    It's also possible that you could actually bench more free weight than on
    the machine, if your body doesn't like the path the machine forces you
    through. I can't squat more than about 60kg in a smith machine, and even
    then depth will be shite. I can squat 100kg to full depth with free weights,
    because my back isn't being shoved into a painful position.

    short answer:

    Get a couple of mates to spot you and find out.

    Peter
     
  3. Hobbes

    Hobbes Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
    > hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    >
    > For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    > that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
    > scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.


    It doesn't convert. Depends on the person, experience, etc.

    Go do a free weight bench and find out.
     
  4. Lee Michaels

    Lee Michaels Guest

    "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
    > hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    >
    > For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    > that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
    > scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
    >

    When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first to put
    curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for shipping and
    assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space each machine took
    up.

    Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am concerned, a
    great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of weights. Expecially
    if you are strong.

    Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
    hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many people
    have discovered this on their own.

    Totally different universes. This is in addition to the stabilizer muscles
    needed to do a real world lift.

    Gary Jones was a great designer and innovator. But the large investments in
    weights and the big need for lots of iron for advanced people have been well
    known among gym owners. But since most of the gym members are weak wanna
    be's, it probably doesn't matter all that much. And manny folks will never
    advance enough to do movements off of a machine.
     
  5. ATP*

    ATP* Guest

    "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
    >> hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    >>
    >> For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    >> that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
    >> scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
    >>

    > When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first to
    > put curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for shipping
    > and assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space each machine
    > took up.
    >
    > Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am concerned,
    > a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of weights.
    > Expecially if you are strong.

    Not sure what you mean here. You must be referring to the distance from the
    plates to the fulcrum?
    >
    > Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
    > hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many
    > people have discovered this on their own.
    >

    But they use real plates! So it's obviously better than a machine that uses
    rectangular weights and pins:)
     
  6. gman99

    gman99 Guest

    Peter Allen wrote:
    > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on

    a
    > > hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    > >
    > > For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    > > that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out

    the
    > > scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

    >
    > long answer:
    >
    > Assuming you mean the machine thingy,


    ?? Is that the technical term ?? No, that would be a universal...I'm
    talking about a specific piece of equipment which allows you to add
    plates. It is a regular flat bench but has the weights added to an arm
    that you lift.

    http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com/content.cfm/iso-lateralhorizontalbenchpress
     
  7. gman99

    gman99 Guest

    Hobbes wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on

    a
    > > hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    > >
    > > For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    > > that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out

    the
    > > scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

    >
    > It doesn't convert. Depends on the person, experience, etc.


    Why ?? I should be able to simply stick a scale underneath (if I had
    one) and weigh it. As long as the weight arm (lever) angle stays below
    the fulcrum the weight shouldn't change (if I remember my physics
    correctly).
     
  8. "ATP*" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>> Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
    >>> hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    >>>
    >>> For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    >>> that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
    >>> scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
    >>>

    >> When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first to
    >> put curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for
    >> shipping and assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space
    >> each machine took up.
    >>
    >> Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am
    >> concerned, a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of
    >> weights. Expecially if you are strong.

    > Not sure what you mean here. You must be referring to the distance from
    > the plates to the fulcrum?
    >>
    >> Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
    >> hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many
    >> people have discovered this on their own.
    >>

    > But they use real plates! So it's obviously better than a machine that
    > uses rectangular weights and pins:)
    >how?
     
  9. gman99

    gman99 Guest


    > > Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am

    concerned,
    > > a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of weights.


    > > Expecially if you are strong.


    that would be irrelevant...what counts is the position of the weight
    relative to the fulcrum. In this case I don;t beleive the weight ever
    goes above the fulcrum therefore there is no mechanical benefit...the
    ratio is 1 to 1 AFAICTd...but then I'm no physics major.
     
  10. ATP*

    ATP* Guest

    "Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "ATP*" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>>
    >>> "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]
    >>>> Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
    >>>> hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    >>>>
    >>>> For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    >>>> that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
    >>>> scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
    >>>>
    >>> When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first to
    >>> put curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for
    >>> shipping and assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space
    >>> each machine took up.
    >>>
    >>> Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am
    >>> concerned, a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of
    >>> weights. Expecially if you are strong.

    >> Not sure what you mean here. You must be referring to the distance from
    >> the plates to the fulcrum?
    >>>
    >>> Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
    >>> hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many
    >>> people have discovered this on their own.
    >>>

    >> But they use real plates! So it's obviously better than a machine that
    >> uses rectangular weights and pins:)


    >>how?

    >

    It's not, hence the smiley. The only advantage is you get a little exercise
    loading the plates. But it is apparently a great marketing tool.
     
  11. David  Cohen

    David Cohen Guest

    "Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email protected]> wrote
    > "ATP*" <[email protected]> wrote
    >> "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote
    >>> "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote
    >>>> Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
    >>>> hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    >>>>
    >>>> For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    >>>> that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
    >>>> scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
    >>>>
    >>> When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first to
    >>> put curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for
    >>> shipping and assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space
    >>> each machine took up.
    >>>
    >>> Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am
    >>> concerned, a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of
    >>> weights. Expecially if you are strong.

    >> Not sure what you mean here. You must be referring to the distance from
    >> the plates to the fulcrum?
    >>>
    >>> Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
    >>> hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many
    >>> people have discovered this on their own.
    >>>

    >> But they use real plates! So it's obviously better than a machine that
    >> uses rectangular weights and pins:)


    > how?


    Plates, being round, are a more fundamentally basic shape than rectangular
    weights in a stack.

    Spherical weights would be even better.

    Weights in a Calabi-Yau shape would be just a dream.

    David
     
  12. gman99

    gman99 Guest

    gman99 wrote:
    > Peter Allen wrote:
    > > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message


    > Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
    > hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    > For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    > that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
    > scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
    > >
    > > long answer:
    > >
    > > Assuming you mean the machine thingy,

    >
    > ?? Is that the technical term ?? No, that would be a universal...I'm
    > talking about a specific piece of equipment which allows you to add
    > plates. It is a regular flat bench but has the weights added to an

    arm
    > that you lift.
    >
    >

    http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com/content.cfm/iso-lateralhorizontalbenchpress

    Perhaps someone in the scientific world can help more easily...
     
  13. ATP*

    ATP* Guest

    "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Hobbes wrote:
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> > Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on

    > a
    >> > hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    >> >
    >> > For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    >> > that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out

    > the
    >> > scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

    >>
    >> It doesn't convert. Depends on the person, experience, etc.

    >
    > Why ?? I should be able to simply stick a scale underneath (if I had
    > one) and weigh it. As long as the weight arm (lever) angle stays below
    > the fulcrum the weight shouldn't change (if I remember my physics
    > correctly).


    The only way the weight would require close to the same force is if it was
    the same distance from the fulcrum as the handles(it would only be exactly
    the same when the lever is perfectly horizontal). Typically it's not, the
    weight is closer to the fulcrum, so you have a mechanical advantage. You are
    pushing on the long part of the lever, travelling a greater distance than
    the vertical increase in height for the weight.
     
  14. ATP*

    ATP* Guest

    "David Cohen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email protected]> wrote
    >> "ATP*" <[email protected]> wrote
    >>> "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote
    >>>> "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote
    >>>>> Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
    >>>>> hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    >>>>>
    >>>>> For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    >>>>> that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
    >>>>> scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
    >>>>>
    >>>> When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first
    >>>> to put curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for
    >>>> shipping and assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space
    >>>> each machine took up.
    >>>>
    >>>> Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am
    >>>> concerned, a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of
    >>>> weights. Expecially if you are strong.
    >>> Not sure what you mean here. You must be referring to the distance from
    >>> the plates to the fulcrum?
    >>>>
    >>>> Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
    >>>> hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many
    >>>> people have discovered this on their own.
    >>>>
    >>> But they use real plates! So it's obviously better than a machine that
    >>> uses rectangular weights and pins:)

    >
    >> how?

    >
    > Plates, being round, are a more fundamentally basic shape than rectangular
    > weights in a stack.
    >
    > Spherical weights would be even better.
    >
    > Weights in a Calabi-Yau shape would be just a dream.
    >
    > David

    They would be second only to the kettlebell shape.
     
  15. Lee Michaels

    Lee Michaels Guest

    "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    >> > Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am

    > concerned,
    >> > a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of weights.

    >
    >> > Expecially if you are strong.

    >
    > that would be irrelevant...what counts is the position of the weight
    > relative to the fulcrum. In this case I don;t beleive the weight ever
    > goes above the fulcrum therefore there is no mechanical benefit...the
    > ratio is 1 to 1 AFAICTd...but then I'm no physics major.
    >


    Since you do not live in the real world, it would be irrelevant.

    Since I (and many others) DO live in the real world, it is totally relevant.
    Having to load eight plates on a machine to do what cam be done on a bar
    with four plates means that you spend much more time playing with weights
    instead of exercisng. It makes many kinds of movement totally impractical.
    Expecially if there are a limited supply of weights.

    And as for your scale thingy, it is still totally irrelevant. A controlled
    movement with a machine is NEVER comparable to a free weight movement
    through the air.

    You are still an idiot.

    There is NO comparison between the two.

    But many morons and retards keep asking about it. It is probably the
    millionth time it has been brought up. And never by anybody who is
    intelligent or knowledgable.

    Let it rest.
     
  16. Jim Ranieri

    Jim Ranieri Guest

    "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > > > Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am

    > concerned,
    > > > a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of weights.

    >
    > > > Expecially if you are strong.

    >
    > that would be irrelevant...what counts is the position of the weight
    > relative to the fulcrum. In this case I don;t beleive the weight ever
    > goes above the fulcrum therefore there is no mechanical benefit...the
    > ratio is 1 to 1 AFAICTd...but then I'm no physics major.
    >


    If I'm interpreting the picture correctly, it looks like the x distance from
    the fulcrum to the weight is about 20" or so, and the distance from the
    fulcrum to the handle is maybe 32-34" - so there is a definite mechanical
    advantage to the machine.

    As for finding a scale to put under the handle to measure the downward force
    at a given angle - that would not take into account the stabilization
    required on a free weight lift, as others have pointed out. It's apples and
    oranges. Do you not have access to a free weight bench?
     
  17. gman99

    gman99 Guest

    > You are still an idiot.

    Fruit of the looms a little too tight ??

    > There is NO comparison between the two.


    The WEIGHT you moron...ALL I asked was about the WEIGHT....there IS a
    comparison...ok...so stabilizers are not being used...the CHEST muscle
    must still contract to move the weight....the question, apparently not
    clearly enough asked, was am I pushing the same amount if weight...am I
    losing anything in the mechanical load on the Hammer Strength bench ??

    Well then DO NOT ANSWER the post if you're upset or otherwise
    miffed...I don't want to hear from you if all you have is this shit...
     
  18. gman99

    gman99 Guest


    >
    > If I'm interpreting the picture correctly, it looks like the x

    distance from
    > the fulcrum to the weight is about 20" or so, and the distance from

    the
    > fulcrum to the handle is maybe 32-34" - so there is a definite

    mechanical
    > advantage to the machine.


    I don't think that picture does justice...the weight is actuall forward
    of the halfway point...the weight is perhaps 30" from the fulcrum and
    only about 14-16" from the handle...

    > As for finding a scale to put under the handle to measure the

    downward force
    > at a given angle - that would not take into account the stabilization
    > required on a free weight lift, as others have pointed out. It's

    apples and
    > oranges. Do you not have access to a free weight bench?


    It's not complete apples and oranges, afterall the purpose is to build
    the chest muscle. No there is not free weight bench and the dumbbells
    only go to 90 lbs....
     
  19. Peter Allen

    Peter Allen Guest

    "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Peter Allen wrote:
    >> "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >> > Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on

    > a
    >> > hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
    >> >
    >> > For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
    >> > that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out

    > the
    >> > scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

    >>
    >> long answer:
    >>
    >> Assuming you mean the machine thingy,

    >
    > ?? Is that the technical term ?? No, that would be a universal...I'm
    > talking about a specific piece of equipment which allows you to add
    > plates. It is a regular flat bench but has the weights added to an arm
    > that you lift.
    >
    > http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com/content.cfm/iso-lateralhorizontalbenchpress


    Yes, that is a machine thingy.

    Peter
     
  20. Jim Ranieri

    Jim Ranieri Guest

    "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > >
    > > If I'm interpreting the picture correctly, it looks like the x

    > distance from
    > > the fulcrum to the weight is about 20" or so, and the distance from

    > the
    > > fulcrum to the handle is maybe 32-34" - so there is a definite

    > mechanical
    > > advantage to the machine.

    >
    > I don't think that picture does justice...the weight is actuall forward
    > of the halfway point...the weight is perhaps 30" from the fulcrum and
    > only about 14-16" from the handle...
    >


    If the weight were situated directly over your hands - there would be no
    mech. advantage. The closer it moves to the fulcrum, the greater the
    mechanical advantage.

    To make that arm rotate on the fulcrum pin, you have to generate more torque
    (ft-lbs) than the weight is providing. So, 100 lbs located 2 feet from the
    pivot pin is 200 ft-lbs, if you are pressing from a lever arm 3 ft long, you
    need only apply 67lbs to generate the same amount of torque. Capeesh?
     
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