Hammerstrength v free weights



Gregory L. Hansen wrote:


> Also you usually don't include the weight of the bar when you do free
> weights,

Who doesn't include the weight of the bar? Everyone I know does.

Bruce
 
"gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Hobbes wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on
> a
> > > hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
> > >
> > > For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
> > > that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out
> the
> > > scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
> >
> > It doesn't convert. Depends on the person, experience, etc.
>
> Why ?? I should be able to simply stick a scale underneath (if I had
> one) and weigh it. As long as the weight arm (lever) angle stays below
> the fulcrum the weight shouldn't change (if I remember my physics
> correctly).

Quit being a ***** and get on a bench. Do your own damn math and
experiments. Quit *****ing at others trying to tell you there is no
comparison.
 
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:49:34 -0600, "Jim Ranieri" <nah,> wrote:

>
>"Gregory L. Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Also you usually don't include the weight of the bar when you do free
>> weights,
>
>what the hell are you talking about?

I hear that light-weight carbon-fiber bars will be the next big thing
in gear. Early reports are that some guys are getting 20lbs,
sometimes even 30lbs increases in their lifts.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane
 
> There's no simple conversion because they're different exercises.

Not really...they're both most chest exercises....Jesus people...I get
that when using a fixed bar like Hammer Strenght that the stabilizers
aren't used but it's STILL a freakin bench press...still hits the pecs
pretty hard.

> Machines in general define a trajectory that you can't deviate from,
while
> free weights require more work from auxiliary muscles to balance and
> support the load. If you've been working the Hammer machine and not
free
> weights, try loading up the bar and doing a free weight bench press
and
> before you hit 200 pounds your arms will likely be shaking and
swaying.
> And I can almost guarantee you'll feel uncomfortable with the
movement; it
> can take some time to find your "groove" with free weights.

I've worked with free weights for 20 years...thanks...I know what a
free weight feels like. If you want better leave the barbell alone and
use dumbbells.

> Also you usually don't include the weight of the bar when you do free

> weights

Since when ?? If I bench 300 lbs that INCLUDES the weight of the bar,
not just the plates.

, but when a machine is on zero they really do mean zero. An
> olympic bar weighs 45 pounds, a K-Mart bar weighs around 25.

Huh ??

> If you can bench 200 pounds free weights, you can do 200 pounds on
the
> Hammer machine, and possibly more. If you can do 200 pounds on the
Hammer
> machine, you'll probably be doing around 150, give or take, on the
free
> weights for the first week or two. Then when you think you have the
> barbell bench press down, try dumbbells for another ego adjustment.
It
> doesn't seem like it should be so much harder to lift the same amount
of
> weight...

It's amazing how thick people really are....
 
Jim Ranieri wrote:
> "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Jim Ranieri wrote:
> > > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If I'm interpreting the picture correctly, it looks like the
x
> > > > distance from
> > > > > the fulcrum to the weight is about 20" or so, and the
distance
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > fulcrum to the handle is maybe 32-34" - so there is a
definite
> > > > mechanical
> > > > > advantage to the machine.
> > > >
> > > > I don't think that picture does justice...the weight is actuall
> > forward
> > > > of the halfway point...the weight is perhaps 30" from the
fulcrum
> > and
> > > > only about 14-16" from the handle...
> > > >
> > >
> > > If the weight were situated directly over your hands - there
would be
> > no
> > > mech. advantage. The closer it moves to the fulcrum, the greater
the
> > > mechanical advantage.
> > >
> > > To make that arm rotate on the fulcrum pin, you have to generate
more
> > torque
> > > (ft-lbs) than the weight is providing. So, 100 lbs located 2 feet
> > from the
> > > pivot pin is 200 ft-lbs, if you are pressing from a lever arm 3
ft
> > long, you
> > > need only apply 67lbs to generate the same amount of torque.
Capeesh?
> >
> > Gotcha....what's the formula ? Is it that simple....
> > A = distance between weight and fulcrum
> > B = distance between weight and handle
> >
> > tourque = (A / A+B) * weight ??
> >
>
> T = F * d, where
> T = Torque
> F = Force ( the force applied perpendicular to the fulcrum pin)
>
> d = Distance
>
> but again, this isn't going to yield a number that will predict your
> free-weight bench with a high degree of accuracy

I understand that...I guess I didn't state the question clearly
enough...seemingly you are the only person to figure out what I was
looking for. I was curious how much work I'm doing with a hammer
strength. If I load up 4 plates a side am I really lifting 360 lbs or
only 300lbs or 250lbs. My new gym doesn't have a barbell / bench free
weights which is fine with me. I can't lift heavy barbell because of a
bum shoulder so I'd likely use the hammer strength anyway. I do incline
dumbbell presses with the 90 lbs (max the gym has) but sometimes have
trouble with the bum shoulder side..I kick the weight up to my start
position but on the first rep my right arm is up but the bum shoulder
is struggling...once I get that first rep outta the way I'm fine. This
isn't much weight though...I do 15 reps but don't have a choice as it
is the max the gym has but it is a free weight movement...
 
> >
> > Yeah, that is the correct measurement for torgue.
> >
> > However, how the person is built and where they sit on the bench
can also
> > affect the leverage (your F from the person). In short - with a
machine
> > you can change the force perpendicular as well as the moment arm.
>
> I'm not sure if the handle on this thing is fixed or not. If it is
fixed,
> the only thing that'll change with the lifter's position on the bench
is how
> efficiently they're able to apply the required force.

The handle is fixed. I try to lay with the handles above my upper
chest.
 

>
> Torque = weight * A. You don't care about the torque, but it's how
you
> calculate the effective weight.
>
> Effective weight for you = formula you gave, although there will be
some
> issues with what happens when the bar isn't dead horizontal (if you
push
> perpendicular to the bar then effective weight will decrease the
further you
> are from horizontal, if you really do push vertical it's accurate).
>
> If you want to be told you're right you would be best to post to a
support
> group, if you want accurate answers post here and you'll get some,
but have
> the decency to accept them even when they aren't to your liking.

Who the hell are you, the NG police ?? Bite me !!

Perhaps if people weren't so god damned sensitive...someone asked
"machine thingy ?"...sounds very precise to me...NOT !!
 
Bob Falooley wrote:
> Lee Michaels wrote:
> > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on
a
> >>hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
>
> Seing people use those hammer strength mahcines at the gym, i figured

> they are designed so that an average person can stack a decent pile
of
> plates on them and lift it. Thus making the person feel better about

> them selves, and then people start liking the hammer machine causes
it
> makes them feel strong. I mean, look at all those plates they are
moving.
>
> Those machines are all BS and take up too much room. This is why
there
> is no room to do cleans or deadlifts in my gym and they make you do
them
> in the cage, which you have to wait on as we all know.

There's a seriously open minded remark with NO basis in fact. So it
might take more plates to work the same muscle more effectively...big
deal. The bench I use takes up the same amount of floor space as a
regular bench...I suspect it's because it's less of a gym / more of a
health club but it is convenient for me and suits my needs. I also like
it because I often workout by myself because my schedule is a little
eradic, don't need a spot...it IS safer.
 
"gman99" babbled
>
> It's amazing how thick people really are....
>
Which is why you won Idiot of the Month.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"gman99" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Jim Ranieri wrote:
> > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Jim Ranieri wrote:
> > > > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I'm interpreting the picture correctly, it looks like the
> x
> > > > > distance from
> > > > > > the fulcrum to the weight is about 20" or so, and the
> distance
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > fulcrum to the handle is maybe 32-34" - so there is a
> definite
> > > > > mechanical
> > > > > > advantage to the machine.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think that picture does justice...the weight is actuall
> > > forward
> > > > > of the halfway point...the weight is perhaps 30" from the
> fulcrum
> > > and
> > > > > only about 14-16" from the handle...
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If the weight were situated directly over your hands - there
> would be
> > > no
> > > > mech. advantage. The closer it moves to the fulcrum, the greater
> the
> > > > mechanical advantage.
> > > >
> > > > To make that arm rotate on the fulcrum pin, you have to generate
> more
> > > torque
> > > > (ft-lbs) than the weight is providing. So, 100 lbs located 2 feet
> > > from the
> > > > pivot pin is 200 ft-lbs, if you are pressing from a lever arm 3
> ft
> > > long, you
> > > > need only apply 67lbs to generate the same amount of torque.
> Capeesh?
> > >
> > > Gotcha....what's the formula ? Is it that simple....
> > > A = distance between weight and fulcrum
> > > B = distance between weight and handle
> > >
> > > tourque = (A / A+B) * weight ??
> > >
> >
> > T = F * d, where
> > T = Torque
> > F = Force ( the force applied perpendicular to the fulcrum pin)
> >
> > d = Distance
> >
> > but again, this isn't going to yield a number that will predict your
> > free-weight bench with a high degree of accuracy
>
> I understand that...I guess I didn't state the question clearly
> enough...seemingly you are the only person to figure out what I was
> looking for. I was curious how much work I'm doing with a hammer
> strength. If I load up 4 plates a side am I really lifting 360 lbs or
> only 300lbs or 250lbs.

And this matters - why?
 
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> gman99 <[email protected]> wrote:
> >gman99 wrote:
> >> Peter Allen wrote:
> >> > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> Also you usually don't include the weight of the bar when you do free

> weights

Of course you include the weight of the bar. Why would it not count?
20 kg is 20 kg.


Stephen
 
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "gman99" babbled
> >
> > It's amazing how thick people really are....
> >
> Which is why you won Idiot of the Month.

Do you really think I care what a bunch of morons think of me ??
Obviously not because I still answer YOUR posts...get over it **** for
brains...your acceptance or rejection of me or my posts means NOTHING
to me. You mean NOTHING to me other than being a source of
entertainment (fun teasing the chimps / chumps)...
 
In article <[email protected]>, Jim Ranieri <nah,> wrote:
>
>"Gregory L. Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Also you usually don't include the weight of the bar when you do free
>> weights,
>
>what the hell are you talking about?

I guess I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, it's been a few
years.

--
"No one need be surprised that the subject of contagion was not clear to
our ancestors."-- Heironymus Fracastorius, 1546
 
In article <[email protected]>,
gman99 <[email protected]> wrote:
>> There's no simple conversion because they're different exercises.
>
>Not really...they're both most chest exercises....Jesus people...I get
>that when using a fixed bar like Hammer Strenght that the stabilizers
>aren't used but it's STILL a freakin bench press...still hits the pecs
>pretty hard.
>
>> Machines in general define a trajectory that you can't deviate from,
>while
>> free weights require more work from auxiliary muscles to balance and
>> support the load. If you've been working the Hammer machine and not
>free
>> weights, try loading up the bar and doing a free weight bench press
>and
>> before you hit 200 pounds your arms will likely be shaking and
>swaying.
>> And I can almost guarantee you'll feel uncomfortable with the
>movement; it
>> can take some time to find your "groove" with free weights.
>
>I've worked with free weights for 20 years...thanks...I know what a
>free weight feels like. If you want better leave the barbell alone and
>use dumbbells.

And I'd worked on machines before I started using free weights. No, the
Hammer machine is not still a freakin bench press. If you *hadn't* been
doing free weights for 20 years, it would take some time to get the shake
out of your arms and get the barbell lift as high as the Hammer lift was.

--
"When the fool walks through the street, in his lack of understanding he
calls everything foolish." -- Ecclesiastes 10:3, New American Bible
 
gman99 wrote:

>
> There's a seriously open minded remark with NO basis in fact. So it
> might take more plates to work the same muscle more effectively...big
> deal. The bench I use takes up the same amount of floor space as a
> regular bench...I suspect it's because it's less of a gym / more of a
> health club but it is convenient for me and suits my needs. I also
> like it because I often workout by myself because my schedule is a
> little eradic, don't need a spot...it IS safer.
>

All I saying is the reason those machines are popular is because people
like the idea of moving big plates around, and the Machines make it easy
to move big plates around. Way easier than putting those same plates on
a bar.

Sure the bench might take the same space as a regular bench, but there
are 5,000 other hammer strength machines in there too (at my gym), way
more of those machines then regular benches.

Spotters are good, but not necessary for most training needs. That
point is the crutch for so many machine users it makes me sick.

You are correct, I have no basis for fact, I don't even use these
machines, just observe people using them.

Just trust me and switch to free weights, you will get a much better
feeling, and confidence to know that you are in control of the weight.
Much better for functional real world strength applications too.

--Falooley
 
Bob Falooley wrote:
> gman99 wrote:
>
> All I saying is the reason those machines are popular is because
people
> like the idea of moving big plates around, and the Machines make it
easy
> to move big plates around. Way easier than putting those same plates
on
> a bar.

I wouldn't know as I've never asked why people like them. I like them
because they are easy to load up (weight racked right on the machine),
safer to use solo.

> Sure the bench might take the same space as a regular bench, but
there
> are 5,000 other hammer strength machines in there too (at my gym),
way
> more of those machines then regular benches.

There are a lot but they all have a different function the same as
olympic benches. We have an incline bench, shoulder press and the flat
bench. There are some other unique equipment too...preacher curl bench,
tricep...some leg machines. My only free weight options are dumbbell to
90 lbs or some fixed weight barbells to 100 lbs. The only bar in the
gym that can take the plates is the EZ-Curl bar...unless I'm doing a
tricep press that's much use.
>
> Spotters are good, but not necessary for most training needs. That
> point is the crutch for so many machine users it makes me sick.
>
> You are correct, I have no basis for fact, I don't even use these
> machines, just observe people using them.
>
> Just trust me and switch to free weights, you will get a much better
> feeling, and confidence to know that you are in control of the
weight.
> Much better for functional real world strength applications too.

Like I said, I've been lifting for a long time. I mix it up between
free weights and machines. I'm at the point where my goals have
changed, I'm not looking to build but to maintain...the equipment I
have access to is suitable.
 
"gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Jim Ranieri wrote:
>> "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > Jim Ranieri wrote:
>> > > "gman99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > > news:[email protected]...
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If I'm interpreting the picture correctly, it looks like the
> x
>> > > > distance from
>> > > > > the fulcrum to the weight is about 20" or so, and the
> distance
>> > from
>> > > > the
>> > > > > fulcrum to the handle is maybe 32-34" - so there is a
> definite
>> > > > mechanical
>> > > > > advantage to the machine.
>> > > >
>> > > > I don't think that picture does justice...the weight is actuall
>> > forward
>> > > > of the halfway point...the weight is perhaps 30" from the
> fulcrum
>> > and
>> > > > only about 14-16" from the handle...
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > If the weight were situated directly over your hands - there
> would be
>> > no
>> > > mech. advantage. The closer it moves to the fulcrum, the greater
> the
>> > > mechanical advantage.
>> > >
>> > > To make that arm rotate on the fulcrum pin, you have to generate
> more
>> > torque
>> > > (ft-lbs) than the weight is providing. So, 100 lbs located 2 feet
>> > from the
>> > > pivot pin is 200 ft-lbs, if you are pressing from a lever arm 3
> ft
>> > long, you
>> > > need only apply 67lbs to generate the same amount of torque.
> Capeesh?
>> >
>> > Gotcha....what's the formula ? Is it that simple....
>> > A = distance between weight and fulcrum
>> > B = distance between weight and handle
>> >
>> > tourque = (A / A+B) * weight ??
>> >
>>
>> T = F * d, where
>> T = Torque
>> F = Force ( the force applied perpendicular to the fulcrum pin)
>>
>> d = Distance
>>
>> but again, this isn't going to yield a number that will predict your
>> free-weight bench with a high degree of accuracy
>
> I understand that...I guess I didn't state the question clearly
> enough...seemingly you are the only person to figure out what I was
> looking for. I was curious how much work I'm doing with a hammer
> strength. If I load up 4 plates a side am I really lifting 360 lbs or
> only 300lbs or 250lbs. My new gym doesn't have a barbell / bench free
> weights which is fine with me. I can't lift heavy barbell because of a
> bum shoulder so I'd likely use the hammer strength anyway. I do incline
> dumbbell presses with the 90 lbs (max the gym has) but sometimes have
> trouble with the bum shoulder side..I kick the weight up to my start
> position but on the first rep my right arm is up but the bum shoulder
> is struggling...once I get that first rep outta the way I'm fine. This
> isn't much weight though...I do 15 reps but don't have a choice as it
> is the max the gym has but it is a free weight movement...

If getting the dumbbells into position is difficult buy a set of powerhooks.
www.powerhooks.com
 
"Gregory L. Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Jim Ranieri <nah,> wrote:
> >
> >"Gregory L. Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> >> Also you usually don't include the weight of the bar when you do free
> >> weights,
> >
> >what the hell are you talking about?
>
> I guess I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, it's been a few
> years.
>

That's okay - I'll cut you some slack, being a Hoosier and all.
 

>
> If getting the dumbbells into position is difficult buy a set of
powerhooks.
> www.powerhooks.com

Interesting but no good at my gym...no where to use them...plus, the
weights only go to 90lbs so it's not much of an issue anymore.
 
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