hands and neck bothering me. Geometry?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Curt, Mar 4, 2004.

  1. Curt

    Curt Guest

    I started working out on my roller trainer. I have been spinning on a stationary for a little while
    and have not had any problems with my hands bothering me. Now on my bike and rollers my hands and
    neck are both bothering me. I am keeping my elbows bent and not gripping hard at all.and was
    wondering if there is something wrong with my bike geometry? Is there a site that goes over if you
    have a part of your body bothering you it could be this or that? Back and neck are not that
    comfortable either. Stem too low compared to seat?

    Thanks, Curt
     
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  2. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > I started working out on my roller trainer. I have been spinning on a stationary for a little
    > while and have not had any problems with my hands bothering me. Now on my bike and rollers my
    > hands and neck are both bothering me. I am keeping my elbows bent and not gripping hard at all.and
    > was wondering if there is something wrong with my bike geometry? Is there a site that goes over if
    > you have a part of your body bothering you it could be this or that? Back and neck are not that
    > comfortable either. Stem too low compared to seat?

    Possibly; or stem too long (stretching you out horizontally) will do it too. Try playing with your
    bar positioning; it costs you nothing but a few minutes to try lots of different setting.

    --
    Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the newsgroups if possible).
     
  3. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > I started working out on my roller trainer. I have been spinning on a stationary for a little
    > while and have not had any problems with my hands bothering me. Now on my bike and rollers my
    > hands and neck are both bothering me. I am keeping my elbows bent and not gripping hard at all.and
    > was wondering if there is something wrong with my bike geometry? Is there a site that goes over if
    > you have a part of your body bothering you it could be this or that? Back and neck are not that
    > comfortable either. Stem too low compared to seat?

    Possibly; or stem too long (stretching you out horizontally) will do it too. Try playing with your
    bar positioning; it costs you nothing but a few minutes to try lots of different setting.

    --
    Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the newsgroups if possible).
     
  4. Robert Canon

    Robert Canon Guest

    Curt wrote:
    > > Now on my bike and rollers my hands and neck are both bothering me. Back and neck are not that
    > > comfortable either. Stem too low compared to seat?

    "David Kerber" wrote:>
    > Possibly; or stem too long (stretching you out horizontally) will do it too. Try playing with your
    > bar positioning; it costs you nothing but a few minutes to try lots of different setting.

    With a threadless headset/stem it takes a little more effort/expense. In any case I'm with David in
    suspecting bars too low and/or too far away. I've recently stumbled upon a source of reasonably
    priced ($20) threadless steerer road stems (26.0 or 31.8 bar clamps) that come in geometries (40
    degrees, various reaches) usually reserved for MTB comfort stems.

    http://parts.spicercycles.com/site/intro.cfm?PageID=37&Category=1959

    Might be worth the $20 to see if it moves your position in the right direction by bringing the bars
    up and back...
     
  5. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    ...

    > With a threadless headset/stem it takes a little more effort/expense. In any case I'm with David
    > in suspecting bars too low and/or too far away. I've recently stumbled upon a source of reasonably
    > priced ($20) threadless steerer road stems (26.0 or 31.8 bar clamps) that come in geometries (40
    > degrees, various reaches) usually reserved for MTB comfort stems.
    >
    > http://parts.spicercycles.com/site/intro.cfm?PageID=37&Category=1959
    >
    > Might be worth the $20 to see if it moves your position in the right direction by bringing the
    > bars up and back...

    Boy, I wish you had posted that link about 6 weeks ago; it would have saved me a few bucks <GGG>.
    They also have adjustable ones, which would be even easier to try different things.

    --
    Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the newsgroups if possible).
     
  6. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    Somebody wrote:
    >> too. Try playing with your bar positioning; it costs you nothing but a few minutes to try lots of
    >> different setting.
    On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:09:26 -0600, "Robert Canon" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >With a threadless headset/stem it takes a little more effort/expense. In

    If it takes more expense to get the same amount of adjustment range, then you lack imagination. It
    definitely doesn't take more effort.

    Here's the strategy for trying stuff with a threadless:
    - Spacers allow fine adjustment of height
    - Flip the stem for a larger adjustment, unless it's exactly 90 degrees from the steerer (which
    is uncommon)
    - You only need one allen wrench for the 4 or 6 screws you'll use
    - You won't need to adjust anything or re-wrap your bar

    Now, it's arguably as easy to adjust height with a threaded stem; some people are quick with the
    headset wrench and quick with re-adjusting the headset. Correct me if I'm wrong about what's
    required to change the height of a threaded stem. Also, threaded stems _can_ be had with removable
    plates as are common on threadless, so you don't have to slide the stem off the bar, although
    threaded stems more commonly do not have the two-bolt removable plate.

    However, it's a big project to try a different reach with threaded. With threadless, it's no more
    effort than is height on either system, _and_ it's cheaper too (not "a little more effort/expense").

    Some threadless road stem prices @ Nashbar: Nashbar, 7 degree, 5 reach options, $10 each. ITM, 5
    degree, 140mm, $10. Profile, 16 degree, 120mm, $13 Profile, 74 degree, 120 or 130mm, $13 Profile, 0
    degree, 7 reach options, $13 each These are the first stems to come up when sorted by price.

    The first _threaded_ road stem prices @ Nashbar: Zoom, unspecified (appears 0 degree), 5 reach
    options, $15 Giant, 17 degree _drop_, 5 reach options, $15 These are followed by one more
    inexpensive threadless and then the prices go up steeply.

    I'll note that EVERY stem listed above, of either type, has a two-bolt removable handlebar clamp,
    except the ITM threadless, which has the slide-off clamp more commonly found on threaded.

    However, neither of the inexpensive threaded stems offer a rise angle, nor the adjustment range
    available in the threadless stems, which can rise _or_ drop, depending on how you mount them. Is
    there anybody here who really needs to drop? I suppose Fabrizio, who must have a '7'-shaped stem;
    and maybe a TT-specific or ultra-aggressive race bike needs bars _lower_ than the headset. OTOH,
    many people need to rise -- for example, the OP of this thread, myself, and most other people who
    find themselves fooling around with their stem.

    So, the price is nearly the same, close enough to call it even. The height adjustment range of a
    cheap threadless is as much or more than that of a cheap threaded, unless your steerer is cut so
    short that no spacers at all can be fit (be pretty angry at whoever sold you that fork or bike for
    that!). The reach adjustment is a 90 second job with the threadless stems; can you say the same
    for threaded?

    Both systems are fine, but to say that adjustment is more difficult and/or more expensive with
    threadless is fallacious. The opposite is quite true for many, but even for the retrogrouches,
    threadless, is certainly no worse (once they become rational).

    I've just checked Nashbar for MTB stems, and the threaded MTB stems are much more competitive on
    price, as well as offering rise instead of drop.

    Adjustable threadless stems are easily found for $15 or $20 (depending which model) at Nashbar.
    Adjustable threaded stems exist, but seem a bit difficult to find lately. This is the only way to
    adjust reach without trying lots of different stems, but then height changes with reach.

    I found all this out when I bought my road bike. I had some difficulty with handlebar position, and
    was able to futz around with it myself rather easily, thanks to threadless stems. At the time, I did
    not know what I know now, and was not capable of doing much on the bike, but the stem was easy.

    Since then, I've amassed quite a collection of bikes, and have realized something else about a
    modern thing commonly described as 100% market hype and detrimental: compact geometry. The bike with
    the threadless stem has compact geometry, which works better for my compact body geometry -- my
    inseam is a bit short for my reach, so the lower top tube protects my sensitive bits when I make
    sudden moves off of the saddle to a stop. The clearance is close on regular-geometry bikes that fit
    my reach. It's not terrible, I can ride both types safely; but somebody with even more compact
    dimensions than myself would require a compact frame, or a regular frame too small with an _really_
    long stem.
    --
    Rick "Let the stem war begin!" Onanian
     
  7. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Now, it's arguably as easy to adjust height with a threaded stem; some people are quick with the
    >headset wrench and quick with re-adjusting the headset. Correct me if I'm wrong about what's
    >required to change the height of a threaded stem.

    OK, I will. ;-) It's much EASIER to change the height of the bars with a threaded stem. Loosen the
    binder bolt, move the stem up or down, retighten the binder bolt. You can do this in 5-10 seconds if
    you've got the allen wrench in your hand.

    > Also, threaded stems _can_ be had with removable plates as are common on threadless, so you don't
    > have to slide the stem off the bar, although threaded stems more commonly do not have the two-bolt
    > removable plate.

    True enough... but...

    >However, it's a big project to try a different reach with threaded. With threadless, it's no more
    >effort than is height on either system, _and_ it's cheaper too (not "a little more
    >effort/expense").

    If you have one of the stems you describe above (pop-front, threaded), changing reach is easier than
    with a threadless setup since you don't have to futz around with the headset preload or spacers.

    >Both systems are fine, but to say that adjustment is more difficult and/or more expensive with
    >threadless is fallacious. The opposite is quite true for many, but even for the retrogrouches,
    >threadless, is certainly no worse (once they become rational).

    Wanna race? I can easily change the height of my stem in 5-10 seconds. Can you:

    Loosen the stem binder bolt(s) Remove the top cap Pull the stem off the steer tube Reposition the
    spacers Reinstall the stem Reinstall the top cap Reset the headset bearing preload Snug up the
    stem's binder bolt(s)...

    ... in 5 to 10 seconds? If so, your hands must be a virtual blur!

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  8. On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 16:05:48 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Wanna race? I can easily change the height of my stem in 5-10 seconds. Can you:

    <SNIP wrench mastery sequence>

    >... in 5 to 10 seconds? If so, your hands must be a virtual blur!

    "S#!+. I know bicycle maintenance!"

    "Show me." *diffident taunting gesture*

    -Luigi
     
  9. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    ...

    > Wanna race? I can easily change the height of my stem in 5-10 seconds. Can you:
    >
    > Loosen the stem binder bolt(s) Remove the top cap Pull the stem off the steer tube Reposition the
    > spacers Reinstall the stem Reinstall the top cap Reset the headset bearing preload Snug up the
    > stem's binder bolt(s)...
    >
    > ... in 5 to 10 seconds? If so, your hands must be a virtual blur!

    The best of all is my setup, with a threaded fork with a threadless adapter: I can swap just the
    stem for reach, and can raise or lower the height just like a threaded stem, and I never have to
    mess with bearings. A little heavier, but a lot more versatile.

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
     
  10. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 16:05:48 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>re-adjusting the headset. Correct me if I'm wrong about what's required to change the height of a
    >>threaded stem.
    >
    >OK, I will. ;-) It's much EASIER to change the height of the bars with a threaded stem. Loosen the
    >binder bolt, move the stem up or down, retighten the binder bolt. You can do this in 5-10 seconds
    >if you've got the allen wrench in your hand.

    I stand corrected. That procedure has never worked that easily for me; I've always had to
    futz around with the headset lockring nuts and such. It's never been a simple turn the allen
    screw and pull.

    >>However, it's a big project to try a different reach with threaded. With threadless, it's no more
    >>effort than is height on either system, _and_ it's cheaper too (not "a little more
    >>effort/expense").
    >
    >If you have one of the stems you describe above (pop-front, threaded), changing reach is
    >easier than with a threadless setup since you don't have to futz around with the headset
    >preload or spacers.

    Why would you be bothered with preload or spacers just to change the reach on threadless? If preload
    and spacers were configured well before, and you only want to change reach, just change the reach.

    >Wanna race? I can easily change the height of my stem in 5-10 seconds. Can you: Remove the top cap
    <snip> I forgot about the top cap. That adds another second and a half.

    >... in 5 to 10 seconds? If so, your hands must be a virtual blur!

    I can't do it in 5 to 10 seconds, but I can do it in under two minutes. I've never done anything to
    a threaded stem so quickly, nor was it as intuitive. No instructions required for threadless.
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  11. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    David Kerber <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote:

    >[email protected] says...
    >
    >> Wanna race? I can easily change the height of my stem in 5-10 seconds. Can you:
    >>
    >> Loosen the stem binder bolt(s) Remove the top cap Pull the stem off the steer tube Reposition the
    >> spacers Reinstall the stem Reinstall the top cap Reset the headset bearing preload Snug up the
    >> stem's binder bolt(s)...
    >>
    >> ... in 5 to 10 seconds? If so, your hands must be a virtual blur!
    >
    >The best of all is my setup, with a threaded fork with a threadless adapter: I can swap just the
    >stem for reach, and can raise or lower the height just like a threaded stem, and I never have to
    >mess with bearings. A little heavier, but a lot more versatile.

    I had one of those on my wife's bike (because I was constantly changing the stem on it). Just like
    you say, it was the "ultimate pizza combo" in terms of adjustment - not to mention you could move
    the "threaded part" up and down as well as the stem up and down the shaft (without futzing around
    with the spacers).

    But yeah... it WAS kind of heavy.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  12. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 16:05:48 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>re-adjusting the headset. Correct me if I'm wrong about what's required to change the height of a
    >>>threaded stem.
    >>
    >>OK, I will. ;-) It's much EASIER to change the height of the bars with a threaded stem. Loosen the
    >>binder bolt, move the stem up or down, retighten the binder bolt. You can do this in 5-10 seconds
    >>if you've got the allen wrench in your hand.
    >
    >I stand corrected. That procedure has never worked that easily for me; I've always had to futz
    >around with the headset lockring nuts and such. It's never been a simple turn the allen screw
    >and pull.

    Something's wrong - changing the height of the stem doesn't do anything to affect the headset
    preload. Perhaps your locknut was VERY loose and being held on by the stem? Scary...

    >>>However, it's a big project to try a different reach with threaded. With threadless, it's no more
    >>>effort than is height on either system, _and_ it's cheaper too (not "a little more
    >>>effort/expense").
    >>
    >>If you have one of the stems you describe above (pop-front, threaded), changing reach is easier
    >>than with a threadless setup since you don't have to futz around with the headset preload or
    >>spacers.
    >
    >Why would you be bothered with preload or spacers just to change the reach on threadless? If
    >preload and spacers were configured well before, and you only want to change reach, just change
    >the reach.

    I'll bite. How are you going to do that without having to readjust the preload (start typing out the
    sequence - it'll hit you...).

    >>Wanna race? I can easily change the height of my stem in 5-10 seconds. Can you: Remove the top cap
    ><snip> I forgot about the top cap. That adds another second and a half.
    >
    >>... in 5 to 10 seconds? If so, your hands must be a virtual blur!
    >
    >I can't do it in 5 to 10 seconds, but I can do it in under two minutes. I've never done anything to
    >a threaded stem so quickly, nor was it as intuitive. No instructions required for threadless.

    You need to have someone check that bike if you still have it.

    1) Insert wrench into binder bolt
    2) Turn 1/2 rotation to left
    3) Pull / push stem up/down as desired
    4) Insert wrench into binder bolt
    5) Turn 1/2 rotation to right
    6) Pocket allen wrench
    7) Ride bike

    OK, the last bit takes longer than 10 seconds... ;-)

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  13. Ez

    Ez Guest

    I have one of Mark Hickey's bikes. It has a threaded stem and it drove me nuts when I wanted to try
    different stem geometry. It is hard to find threaded stems with a two-bolt handlebar clamp. I got a
    threaded-to-threadless adapter, which worked very well, but it is ugly and looks funny. When I
    figured out what I wanted I got one of these: http://tinyurl.com/yvxs6 it isn't real pretty but the
    price is good and I am satisfied with it.

    Mark- I am still happy with the Habanero.
     
  14. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    I wrote:
    >>I stand corrected. That procedure has never worked that easily for me; I've always had to futz
    >>around with the headset lockring nuts and such. It's never been a simple turn the allen screw
    >>and pull.
    On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:49:16 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Something's wrong - changing the height of the stem doesn't do anything to affect the headset
    >preload. Perhaps your locknut was VERY loose and being held on by the stem? Scary...

    I don't recall, but I'll give it a try on my mountain bike. That's the only bike I have with a
    threaded stem that I don't expect to be frozen or jammed -- which, BTW, is another point for
    threadless, which simply do not seize.

    [gone for a couple minutes to try it]

    Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. It was exactly as easy as you said. Is reach as easy too?

    >>Why would you be bothered with preload or spacers just to change the reach on threadless? If
    >>preload and spacers were configured well before, and you only want to change reach, just change
    >>the reach.
    >
    >I'll bite. How are you going to do that without having to readjust the preload (start typing out
    >the sequence - it'll hit you...).

    OIC. I forgot: The cap bolt sets the preload...which, BTW, takes literally less than 5 seconds.

    1. Unscrew cap
    2. Unscrew two stem bolts at steerer
    3. Unscrew two or four stem bolts at bars
    4. Pull stem
    5. Drop new stem in
    6. Screw cap in
    7. Tighten bolts loosened in 2 and 3

    This is all done with a single allen wrench, BTW. You could, if you please, remove the cap once
    you're done, as the preload stays set once you tighten the stem.

    >7) Ride bike
    >
    >OK, the last bit takes longer than 10 seconds... ;-)

    That's the important step, and is the same regardless of your stem type.

    So far, we've determined that minor height adjustment is slightly quicker with threaded; but I stand
    by my other points:
    - Reach is quicker with threadless, and slightly cheaper
    - Large height adjustments with threadless: quicker, cheaper too
    - A threadless stem won't be found seized, regardless of grease.

    and my original point:
    - Either system is fine. To say that one is useless, terrible, or only marketerware (did I just
    invent a term?) is fallacious.
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  15. "curt" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > I started working out on my roller trainer. I have been spinning on a
    > stationary for a little while and have not had any problems with my hands
    > bothering me. Now on my bike and rollers my hands and neck are both bothering
    > me. I am keeping my elbows bent and not gripping hard at all.and was wondering
    > if there is something wrong with my bike geometry? Is there a site that goes
    > over if you have a part of your body bothering you it could be this or that?
    > Back and neck are not that comfortable either. Stem too low compared to seat?
    >
    > Thanks, Curt
    >
    >
    There is a little more stress/tension generated by riding rollers relative a
    stationary, appreciating the fact that you are trying to relax, but this may
    explain the diffence. Basically on a trainer you can go to sleep, but on rollers
    that is not an options so try and sit up every 5 minutes and ride no hands, and
    when you get comfortable with this the back and neck issues may go away.
     
  16. Curt

    Curt Guest

    Thank you for all the replies here. I moved the stem up a
    bit and moved the seat forward just a little and today rode
    for 40 minutes without any problems. It sure felt good to
    ride in comfort. Can't wait to really get going and do a
    century. I will be riding over 80 miles and the following
    day over 60 in the MS 150 in June.

    Enjoy, Curt

    "David Kerber" <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] says...
    > > I started working out on my roller trainer. I have been
    > > spinning on a stationary for a little while and have not
    > > had any problems with my
    hands
    > > bothering me. Now on my bike and rollers my hands and
    > > neck are both bothering me. I am keeping my elbows bent
    > > and not gripping hard at
    all.and
    > > was wondering if there is something wrong with my bike
    > > geometry? Is
    there a
    > > site that goes over if you have a part of your body
    > > bothering you it
    could
    > > be this or that? Back and neck are not that comfortable
    > > either. Stem
    too
    > > low compared to seat?
    >
    > Possibly; or stem too long (stretching you out
    > horizontally) will do it too. Try playing with your bar
    > positioning; it costs you nothing but a few minutes to try
    > lots of different setting.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts
    > in the newsgroups if possible).
     
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