Has anyone been to www.abovetopsecret.com?

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by Eldron, Sep 16, 2005.

  1. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    So you are admitting that you put him on the ignore list cause you couldn't respond to the truth...you can't handle the truth can you son?

    Ignore lists..undisclosed location ...what ya fraid of boxcar?
     


  2. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    I've got your "son" hanging, Flappy-lips. Or maybe you'd like that as a closet "Log Cabin" Rethug-lickin'?

    The ignore function exists because, "You can't argue with a sick mind."
     
  3. Colorado Ryder

    Colorado Ryder New Member

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    You sure are spending an awful lot of time trying to refute the fact that you do indeed read my posts.

    Wurmster - you should really consider putting JHusky on your ignore list. You've hurt his feelings and he so desperately wants to be ignored.
     
  4. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    Why get so flustered boxcar? BTW you have it all wrong. One uses the ignore function because they are afraid. In your case it's like you little electronic restraining order...just another example of your cowerdice...Here's to you "Mr. conspiracy theorist, carboard box, undisclosed location dweller" Yes, good idea for a budweiser commercial...
     
  5. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    You're a regular riot, Alice. :rolleyes: Any other denials you'd like to engage in today?
     
  6. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    yeah boxcar should.just put everyone on his ignore list...mommy mommy make them all go away......I can hear wurmy now...
     
  7. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    An Attempt to Uncover the Truth About September 11th, 2001

    We all know the official story of September 11th: four jetliners were hijacked by groups of four and five Arabic men armed with box cutters, who proceeded to fly three of the four jets into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. Subsequently the towers, weakened by the impacts and fires, collapsed into piles of rubble. Later in the afternoon 47-story Building 7, also weakened by fire, collapsed. (Or did you miss that detail?) The FBI had compiled a list of hijackers within two days, and it was so obvious that Osama bin Laden had masterminded the operation from caves in Afghanistan, that there was no need to seriously investigate the crime or produce evidence. The "retaliatory" attack on the Taliban would soon commence.

    Is this story true? Its central assumptions have never been seriously tested. There are numerous red flags in the official story, which requires a long series of highly improbable coincidences. Questioning that story is an act of responsible citizenship.

    '9/11' Anomalies

    Anomalies of the September 11th Attack, Its Run-Up, and Response

    Accepting the official story of the 9/11/01 attack requires one to accept a long series of anomalies -- extremely improbable events, amazing coincidences, and contradictions.

    Run-Up to the Attack

    Numerous incidents preceding the attack indicate many people had advance knowledge of the attack.
    • Put Options
      Stock trades bet on the fall in share values for the two airlines whose planes were used in the attack.
      • Put options purchases on United Airlines and American Airlines stock rose to six times normal levels in the days preceding the attack.
    • Avoidance of the Airlines, the WTC, and the Pentagon
      Government officials and executives avoided the targets of the attack.
      • Pentagon officials canceled travel plans on September 10th.
      • San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown received a warning not to fly on September 10th.
      • Scotland Yard prohibited Salman Rushdie from flying on September 11th.
      • Two employees of Odigo, the instant messaging service, received e-mail warnings of the attack two hours before the first assault on the WTC.
      • Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel, cancelled plans to address Israeli support groups in New York City on September 11th.
      • Business executives, some of whom worked in the WTC, were in Kansas to attend a meeting at Offutt Air Force Base hosted by billionaire Warren Buffett on the morning of September 11th.
    Hijacking Scenario

    The attack scenario was irrational on the part of the alleged hijackers, and its execution is incomprehensible in light of their behavior. There is no credible evidence that Arab hijackers were involved in the September 11th attack.
    • Attack Plan
      By flying from remote airports and going far out of their way, the attack planners exposed their plan to almost certain ruin, had the air defense system operated normally.
      • The originating airport for Flights 11 and 175 was Boston Logan instead of any of several airports near New York City. This created about 40 minutes of exposure to interception for each flight.
      • Flight 77 flew to the Midwest before turning around to return to Washington D.C.. It was airborne an hour and 23 minutes before allegedly attacking the Pentagon. That would provide ample opportunity for interception even if the air defense system were 95% disabled.
      • Flight 93 flew to the Midwest before turning around to fly toward Washington D.C. Had it reached the capital, it would have been airborne over an hour and a half. The odds of escaping interception with that plan would be infinitesimal under standard operating procedures.
    • Behavior of Villains
      The behavior of the alleged hijackers preceding the attack is inconsistent with skill and discipline needed to have a hope of pulling off such an attack.
      • Mohammed Atta allegedly barely caught Flight 11, a key flight in the event that he was supposedly planning for years.
      • The alleged hijackers partied at topless bars and drank alcohol, despite being portrayed as fundamentalist Muslims, for whom such behavior would be surprising.
    • Evidence Void
      There is no hard evidence that any of the alleged hijackers were on any of the doomed flights, and substantial evidence that some weren't involved.
      • No video of any of the 19 hijackers at any of the three originating airports of the four flights has been made public, except for a video allegedly showing hijackers of Flight 77.
      • None of the alleged hijackers' names appeared on the airlines' passenger lists.
      • At least six of the alleged hijackers have turned up alive since the attack.
      • None of the four flight crews radioed Air Traffic Control about hijackings in progress.
      • None of the four flight crews punched in the four-digit hijacking code.
      • No public evidence indicates that the remains of any of the hijackers was identified at any of the crash sites.
    • Phenomenal Success
      The success with which hijackers allegedly took over four jets with knives and then piloted the jets to small targets is simply miraculous.
      • None of the four flight crews were able to stop the alleged hijackers, in spite of several of the pilots being Vietnam veterans.
      • None of the alleged hijackers were good pilots, yet the three buildings were hit with phenomenal precision.
    (Lack of) Military Response

    Despite normal intercept times of between 10 and 20 minutes for errant domestic flights, the airliners commandeered on 9/11/01 roamed the skies for over an hour without interference.
    • Failures to Report
      According to NORAD's timeline the FAA reported errant airliners after inexplicable delays.
      • The FAA took 18 minutes to report Flight 11's loss of communication and deviation from its flight plan.
      • The FAA took 39 minutes to report Flight 77's deviation from its flight plan.
    • Failures to Scramble
      Interceptors were only scrambled from distant bases after long delays.
      • Despite the fact that Flights 11 and 175 were headed for New York City, no interceptors were scrambled from nearby La Guardia, or from Langley, Virginia.
      • Despite NORAD's having received formal notification of the first hijacking at 8:38, no interceptors were scrambled from Andrews to protect the nearby Pentagon until after it was hit at 9:37.
    • Failures to Intercept
      Once in the air, interceptors flew at only small fractions of their top speeds, assuring they would fail to intercept the airliners.
      • The two F-15s scrambled from Otis AFB to chase Flight 11 flew at an average of 447 mph, about 23.8% their top speed of 1875 mph.
      • The two F-16s scrambled from Langley to protect the capital flew at an average of 410.5 mph, about 27.4% of their top speed of 1500 mph.
    • Failures to Redeploy
      Nearby fighters on routine patrol duty were not redeployed to intercept the airliners, nor were fighters that belatedly reached Manhattan sent to defend the capital.
      • Two F-15s flying off the coast of Long Island were not redeployed to Manhattan until after the second tower was hit.
      • The two F-15s scrambled from Otis AFB to protect Manhattan could have reached the capital in 9.6 minutes once they arrived over New York City. That was still 34 minutes before the Pentagon was hit.
    Building Collapses

    On 9/11/01 three skyscrapers totally collapsed with fire given as the sole or primary cause. Fires and bombings have never before or since caused steel-frame buildings to collapse.
    • Building 7
      Building 7 imploded late on 9/11/01. It was not hit by an aircraft.
      • Building 7 experienced total collapse, allegedly because of fires, when no steel-frame building before or since has ever collapsed, totally or even partially, due to fires. Building 7 was an over-engineered 47-story steel-frame skyscraper, standing over 350 feet from the nearest of the Twin Towers. Only small fires burned in it on September 11th.
      • Building 7 collapsed in a nearly perfectly vertical fall, leaving the buildings only 60 feet on either side virtually unscathed.
      • Building 7 collapsed into a remarkably small rubble pile of mostly pulverized remains, when no steel building falling for any reason has ever pulverized itself.
      • Building 7 contained a 23-million-dollar emergency command center, but instead of using it for its ostensible purpose, then-Mayor Giuliani evacuated his team to a makeshift command center as soon as the September 11th attack started.
      • The emergency command center was pulverized along with the rest of the building, even though it was constructed as a bomb-hardened shelter.
      • The remains of Building 7 were rapidly removed and the steel recycled, evidently without any on-site and only extremely limited off-site examination. The rapid disposal operation proceeded despite the fact that no one was believed buried in the rubble, and the tidy rubble pile was not blocking adjacent roads.
    • Twin Towers
      The Twin Towers exploded into dust and shattered steel, a behavior inconsistent with the known behavior of steel structures outside of explosive demolition.
      • The South Tower was struck 17 minutes after the North Tower, and in a less damaging manner, and it had less severe fires, yet it collapsed 29 minutes before the North Tower.
      • The South Tower's core structure was largely undamaged by the off-centered jet impact, unlike the North Tower, yet it collapsed sooner.
      • The South Tower had much less severe fires than the North Tower, and yet collapsed sooner.
      • Smoke from the fires in the South Tower became progressively darker up to the time it collapsed.
      • Firefighters reached the crash zone of the South Tower and calmly described controllable fires.
      • Both towers started to crumble at regions well above the crash zones in the first seconds of their falls.
      • Both towers fell straight down, through themselves, following the path of maximum resistance, a behavior never before observed in spontaneous collapses of any type of vertical structure.
    Pentagon Attack

    The Pentagon attack occurred well over an hour into the crisis despite its close proximity to Andrews Air Force Base, was alegedly piloted through an extreme and precision attack maneuver by an incompetent, and resulted in the one relatively unoccupied portion of the building being hit.
    • Wide-Open Target
      The Pentagon -- the heart of the military establishment of the world's greatest super-power -- was hit well over an hour into the attack without being protected by any defensive action.
      • The Pentagon is within 11 miles of Andrews Air Force Base, which apparently had two combat-ready fighter wings on 9/11/01.
      • The attack plane was monitored on radar as it approached the capital.
    • Unlikely Super-pilot
      Alleged Flight 77 pilot Hani Hanjour was not up to the task.
      • The spiral dive approach to the Pentagon was such an extreme maneuver that experienced air traffic controllers thought it was military jet. The tree-top final approach skimmed objects in the yard and crashed the plane into the first floor of the building. Experienced pilots have wondered if any human pilot could have executed the maneuver.
      • Hani Hanjour was considered incompetent by his flight school instructors, and was denied rental of a single-engine plane.
    • Evidence Vacuum
      Authorities systematically confiscated or destroyed the evidence.
      • Video recordings from adjacent businesses were seized by the FBI shortly after the attack and have never been seen since.
      • Only five frames of video have been released by the Pentagon (and then only as an unofficial leak) from all the security cameras that monitor its periphery. Those frames show signs of forgery.
      • Investigators were not allowed access to the crash site until well into October.
    • More than Just a Crash
      Was the crash engineered?
      • A photographed scrap of aircraft debris that has markings similar to an American Airlines 757 corresponds to the forward portion of the starboard (right) side of the plane, yet the scrap was far to the left of the plane's path.
      • Eyewitnesses reported the smell of cordite.
      • Several eyewitnesses reported that the jetliner exploded before reaching the facade of the Pentagon.
      • Portions of the facade where the wing ends and tail of a 757 would have collided show no gouging. Were these parts shredded by explosives before they reached the facade?
    Death Toll

    The death toll of the attack, though horrific, was much lower than it would have been if not for numerous aspects of target selection and timing.
    • Flights
      All four flights were unusually empty.
      • Flights 11, 175, 77, and 93 were only at 47%, 31%, 28%, and 16% occupancy, respectively.
    • World Trade Center
      The towers were attacked before most people had arrived, and were hit high enough to allow most people to escape.
      • When Flight 11 hit the North Tower at 8:46 AM, the World Trade Center buildings were at less than half the occupancy of a typical mid-day.
      • The first tower to be attacked was hit just 15 stories below the top, and trapped people mostly between the 95th and 110th floors.
      • The second tower to be attacked was hit only 30 stories below the top, and the plane missed the core, allowing people to evacuate from above the impact zone. The 17 minutes that elapsed since the first hit allowed many people to escape the second tower while the elevators were still working.
    • Pentagon
      125 people were killed in a building with 20,000 people.
      • The portion of the Pentagon that was attacked, the West Block, was in the process of being renovated, and so was at low occupancy.
      • No high-level Pentagon officials were killed in the attack.
    Response

    Despite the worst failure in history of the military to protect American civilians, there were no consequences for the responsible authorities, and no honest investigations.
    • Air Defense Failures
      No one was held to account for the numerous unprecedented failures in air defense.
      • General Richard Myers, Acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on September 11th, was confirmed as Chairman on September 13th in spite of being unable to provide any meaningful answers to questions regarding the air defense failures.
      • General Richard Eberhard, commander of NORAD on September 11th, was promoted to head the newly created NORTHCOM.
      • NORAD's press release contradicted early statements by high-ranking officials that no interceptors had been scrambled on 9/11/01.
      • NORAD's vague timeline raises far more questions than it answers, yet officials have never been required to give a full account.
    • Building Collapse Inquiry
      The total collapses of WTC 1, 2, and 7 were the three largest engineering failures in history (based on the official story). How were they investigated?
      • FEMA was given the sole authority to investigate the collapses even though it is not an investigative agency.
      • The investigative team assembled by FEMA consisted of unpaid volunteers.
      • The investigators were not allowed access to Ground Zero.
      • The investigators were not provided with the blueprints of the buildings.
      • FEMA's report states the causes of the collapse "remain unknown at this time". (By the time the report was released the steel had been entirely disposed of.) The fact that Building 7 (supposedly) failed in a way that contradicts 100 years of engineering experience makes it the largest and least understood structural failure in history.
     
  8. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    Eyewitness Accounts

    Eyewitnesses Recalled Explosions, No Alarms or Sprinklers

    Louie Cacchioli, was one of the first firefighters to enter the South Tower as it burned. A 20-year veteran of the fire department, Cacchioli told People Weekly: [size=-1] 1 [/size]

    I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there were bombs set in the building. Eyewitness Jeff Birnbaum, president of Broadway Electrical Supply Co., New York, recalled events in the South Tower:

    When we got to about 50 feet from the South Tower, we heard the most eerie sound that you would ever hear. A high-pitched noise and a popping noise made everyone stop. We all looked up. At the point, it all let go. The way I see it, it had to be the rivets. The building let go. There was an explosion and the whole top leaned toward us and started coming down. [size=-1] 2 [/size] Eyewitness Neil deGrasse Tyson recounted his recollection of explosions at the onset of the collapses in an e-mail he sent to his family on the day after the attack:

    I hear a second explosion in WTC 2, then a loud, low-frequency rumble that precipitates the unthinkable -- a collapse of all the floors above the point of explosion. First the top surface, containing the helipad, tips sideways in full view. Then the upper floors fall straight down in a demolition-style implosion, taking all lower floors with it, even those below the point of the explosion. [size=-1] 3 [/size]
    ...
    As I dress for survival: boots, flashlight, wet towels, swimming goggles, bicycle helmet, gloves, I hear another explosion followed by a now all-too familiar rumble that signaled the collapse of WTC 1, the first of the two towers to have been hit. I saw the iconic antenna on this building descend straight down in an implosion twinning the first. The video 9/11, The Greatest Lie Ever Sold contains several excerpts of video reports in which witnesses describe what they saw and heard. In the first, a reporter gives the following account:

    The chief of safety of the fire department of New York City told me he recieved word of the possibility of a secondary device: that is another bomb going off. He tried to get his men out as quickly as he could, but he said that there was another explosion which took place and according to his theory he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted within the building. The second excerpt records the impressions of an amerature videographer

    45 minutes into the taping that we were doing there was an explosion -- it was way up where the fire was -- and the whole building at that point bellyed out, in flames, and everybody ran. The third excerpt, a man in talk-show format panel states:

    I was about five blocks away when I heard explosions -- three thuds -- and turned around to see the building we just got out of tend to tip over and fold in on itself. The final clip shows a man in a hospital bed, with a video banner reading "AMERICA RESPONDS". He states:

    and all of a suddend it sounded like gunfire -- you know, bang bang bang bang bang -- then all of a sudden three big explosions. Neil deGrasse Tyson provided a graphic description of the South Tower collapase in an e-mail sent to his family and friends on 9/12/01.

    John Bussey, foreign editor for the Wall Street Journal described the collapse of the South Tower thusly:

    I heard this metallic roar, looked up and saw what I thought was just a peculiar site of individual floors, one after the other exploding outward. I thought to myself, “My God, they’re going to bring the building down.” And they, whoever they are, had set charges. In fact the building was imploding down. I saw the explosions, and I thought, ‘This is not a good place to be, because we’re too close to the building, and it’s too easy for the building to topple over.’ [size=-1] 4 [/size] Firefighter Videos

    Other accounts are in the form of video records. One is of firefighters recalling detonations in the South Tower, in a firehouse discussion:

    fireman2: We made it outside, we made it about a block.
    fireman1: We made it at least 2 blocks.
    fireman2: 2 blocks.
    fireman1: and we started runnin'
    fireman2: poch-poch-poch-poch-poch-poch-poch
    fireman1: Floor by floor it started poppin' out ..
    fireman2: It was as if as if they had detonated, det..
    fireman1: yea detonated yea
    fireman2: as if they had planned to take down a building,
    boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom ...
    fireman1: All the way down, I was watchin it, and runnin'
    fireman3: Just ran up west street.
    fireman1: Then you just sort of ... this cloud of s___
    just chasin' you down
    fireman4: Where did you go?
    fireman3: Just ran up west street.
    fireman2: You couldn't outrun it.
    fireman1: You couldn't outrun it.
    fireman4: So what did you do?
    fireman2: I jumped behind a battalion car,
    I hid under the car, I was waitin' to die.
    In another video, a worker at Ground Zero describes what was found in the rubble in the way of objects other than the Towers' steel.

    You have two 110 story office buildings.
    You don't find a desk.
    You don't find a chair.
    You don't find a telephone, a computer.
    The biggest piece of a telephone I found was half of a keypad,
    and it was about this big:
    (makes a shape with his hand about 4 inches in diameter)
    The building collapsed to dust.
    Other Eyewitness Reports

    The following eyewitness compared the scene to a Hollywood disaster movie, as did many other people.

    When we got to about 50 feet from the South Tower, we heard the most eerie sound that you would ever hear. A high-pitched noise and a popping noise made everyone stop. We all looked up. At the point, it all let go. The way I see it, it had to be the rivets. The building let go. There was an explosion and the whole top leaned toward us and started coming down.

    I stood there for a second in total awe, and then said, "What the F_____?" I honestly thought it was Hollywood. [size=-1] 5
    [/size]

    [size=-1]
    [/size]
     
  9. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    Unthinkable Collapses

    Too Shocking for Rational Analysis

    In fifteen seconds the huge permanent steel structure disintegrated from top to bottom into a growing cloud of dust. Do buildings really fall through themselves like that, turning to dust in seconds? Is that really supposed to happen to a steel structure because of impacts and fires near the top? Perhaps not too many people were asking such questions because none of the series of events leading up to that were supposed to happen. We witnessed an increasingly improbable series of events, from a hijacking with knives, to a jet hitting a World Trade Center tower, to multiple hijackings, to a second jet hitting the other tower, to yet more hijackings, and a plane hitting the heart of the nation's military establishment. Each event in this series was more improbable than the last. So by the time we got to the collapsing skyscrapers part, we were conditioned to expect the unbelievable.

    A rational look at the Twin Tower collapses reveals that the official story contradicts the laws of physics and the most basic knowledge of the behavior of steel structures, and matter itself.



    The Fires

    The Twin Towers' Fires and Their Possible Effects

    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/fires/docs/burning2c.jpg [size=-1] The South Tower's fires burned hot enough at produce visible flames and light smoke (photograph) until the jet fuel burned off less than ten minutes after the crash. Thereafter the fires dwindled and the smoke darkened. When it collapsd 56 minutes after the crash, the invisible fires were emitting only a thin veil of black smoke. [/size] Much was made of the severity of the fires in the Twin Towers, since fires were invoked to explain failures they had never before caused. Some reports compared the heat produced by the fires to that of nuclear power plants. In fact the fires were not as severe as many other highrise fires, none of which caused the buildings to collapse. Furthermore, the fires became less severe over time, at least in the South Tower, whose smoke became thin and nearly black by the time it collapsed.

    Fire-induced column failure collapse theories assume scenarios in which fires consume entire floors and burn for extended periods at temperatures of over 800º C. There are several problems with such scenarios.


    • 800º C is near the maximum flame temperature of hydrocarbons burning in air without pre-heating or pressurization of the air. Even those temperatures are usually reached only with premixed (blue) flames, such as in gas stoves and blowtorches. Diffuse flames, of the type in the WTC, tend to be far cooler.
    • Widespread fires reaching 700º C would have caused extensive window breakage and would have made the steel glow red-hot. No such events were observed. [size=-1] 1 [/size]
    • Fires would have to be very extensive to raise the temperatures of columns to near the fire temperatures, given the thermal sinks of the steel structures. Columns of the perimeter walls and of the core structures were well coupled thermally. In order to soften columns, fires would have to exceed the capacity of the 100,000 tons of steel in each building to draw away the heat. In fact the fires did not even consume entire floors of either tower.
    • Heating the external columns would be especially difficult because the columns were situated outside the interior volume, with only one of the four sides adjacent to the building's interior.
    • Heating of core columns would be especially difficult given the apparently poor ventilation of the core regions, being further from any air supply.
    • As the jet fuel burned off and the fires became less severe, the columns would have cooled and regained most strength lost to elevated temperatures.
    Even if such hot and widespread fires existed, they would still be unlikely to cause failures of the columns in either of the towers.

    The incompatibility of any fire-triggered column-failure scenario with the observed characteristics of the fires created the need for the truss theory.
     
  10. Eldron

    Eldron New Member

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    Nice postings - now can you show us the factual evidence?

    Lot's of I think, could be, possibly, potentially, under the right conditions, if it were, maybe, I might be mistakens but not one scientific fact.

    Oh yeah it was all a government conspiracy because Mr. Joe Governement employee didn't make it to work on time....

    fact (făkt) n. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences....

    Please can you show us some.
     
  11. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    Click on the links in the text. I don't know how much more evidence is required to at least open an independent special investigation, and not the sham that was the 9/11 Commission Report.

    There is much more to this case than that, as can clearly be seen. How are all of these "coincidences" explained, Eldron? "Scientific facts"? For starters, look at the timeline of the jets being scrambled, where they were sent, and why they didn't intercept any of the 4 flights. I guess no matter what, some of you will always make excuses for and denials of simple facts.

    If you want to go into much more depth with the documentation/factual evidence, check out Michael C. Ruppert's book, "Crossing the Rubicon". You might also look at David Ray Griffin's "9/11 Commission: Omissions and Distortions", and "The New Pearl Harbor". You can't reasonably expect me to post all of the various evidence here, which would mean that you'll have to do some reading/research on your own.

    BTW, if you think 9/11 is the only time the gov't has manufactured a "reason" to go to war, you're woefully uninformed.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8765.htm

    http://www.fromthewilderness.com/store/books.shtml#ruby
     
  12. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    Boxcar Wurmy won't post the links that prove that We really didn't invade Iraq. Iraq invaded themselves and made it look like a U.S. invasion.....
     
  13. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    What's the matter, Flappy - can't deal with the facts?

    Unless you have something of substance that refutes any of the above - instead of your typical litany of inane drivel - you should shove your head back into the sand and continue with your delusions.
     
  14. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    The irrefutable fact is that the buildings collapsed.

    The blame game adopted by the Bush goverment tries to accentuate the positives ie "we didn't know about the attack, we did all we could etc etc".
    They would say this regardless.

    Maybe the US goverment did do all it could to prevent the attacks and the collapse.
    Maybe it didn't.

    There is enough evidence as to how the Bush goverment operates to conclude that in fact, it (the Bush Goverment) didn't do enough to prevent
    September 11th.
    As to how little or how much culpability on the part of the Bush goverment
    has to apportioned is what is in question here.
     
  15. BassDave

    BassDave New Member

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    I can only see a problem with Tower 7. You can conclude that Towers 1 & 2 came down because of the airliners and their fuel combustion, but Tower & is a bit of an anomaly. :confused:
     
  16. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    Nor did the Clinton Government for that matter.. I find it odd that after 9/11, there was so much attention on homeland security all across the globe yet, there have been attacks in the U.K., Spain etc…So, who is to blame for those European attacks?Uh, let me guess Lance Armstrong, George Bush are to blame…
     
  17. Eldron

    Eldron New Member

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    Fair point.

    I'm happy to admit that Bush and co. didn't do enought to prevent the attacks - with or without good reason.

    There is a good chance that Bush himself didn't even know about the attack. If it feasible to phone bush every few minutes/hours about the latest threat. Even if it were - he isn't the best person to take action. Someone trained in terrorism would be.

    Some ideas:
    - the US government receives hundreds of threats through various sources. Is it practical to deploy hundreds of employees and evacuate buildings for every threat?
    - Based on the severity of the threat they would evacuate layers of people (top level staff first then lower levels, then the general population).

    A fair amount of the info that Wurm posted stated that the 9/11 plan had too many flaws to be a terrorist attack. Would you have taken a seriously flawed threat seriously? I wouldn't.
     
  18. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Speculative.

    Sept 11th 2001 : Bush was in office, not Clinton.


    homeland security across the globe ??????????????
    Dunno what you're referring to.

    Blair and Aznar's policy of supporting the illegal invasion of Iraq by the USA, was the justification for the respective bombings.

    Not that the taking of innocent life can be justified, of course.

    But it is an explanation as to why those countries made themselves targets.


    Terrorism - be it state terrorism or paramiltary terrorism - cannot be justified.
    As to who is to blame for those attacks ? The USA.
     
  19. Wurm

    Wurm New Member

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    That is hardly the meaning of what I posted. It has been stated by many that the attacks could not have been carried out by terrorists alone in the manner put forth by the official U.S. gov't version of events; that the gov't was complicit in the attacks was the only way they could have succeeded.

    The usual mantra of 'blame Clinton', or diverting from the topic by associating other actual terrorist attacks around the world with 9/11 is an attempt to cloud the issue. The issue here is the evidence and unanswered questions that supports gov't complicity in the 9/11 attacks, or more to the original point: that WTC 1 & 2 could not have fallen from the relatively small and short-lived fires they had. It just doesn't happen with steel-framed buildings - never did before 9/11 and hasn't since. Certainly WTC 7 didn't fall that way from its tiny fires.

    If you read the books that I've pointed out, which I have, you'll see that the evidence is insurmountable that the U.S. gov't aided and abetted the attacks on 9/11.

    From Ruppert:
    "1. I name Vice President Richard Cheney as the prime suspect in the mass murders of 9/11 and will establish that, not only was he a planner in the attacks, but also that on the day of the attacks he was running a completely separate Command, Control and Communications system which was superceding any orders being issued by the FAA, the Pentagon, or the White House Situation Room;

    2. I establish conclusively that in May of 2001, by presidential order, Richard Cheney was put in direct command and control of all wargame and field exercise training and scheduling through several agencies, especially FEMA. This also extended to all of the conflicting and overlapping NORAD drills -- some involving hijack simulations -- taking place on that day.

    3. I demonstrate that the TRIPOD II exercise being set up on Sept. 10th in Manhattan was directly connected to Cheney's role in the above.

    4. I also prove conclusively that a number of public officials, at the national and New York City levels, including then-Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, were aware that flight 175 was en route to lower Manhattan for 20 minutes and did nothing to order the evacuation of, or warn the occupants of the South Tower. One military officer was forced to leave his post in the middle of the attacks and place a private call to his brother - who worked at the WTC - warning him to get out. That was because no other part of the system was taking action.

    5. I also show that the Israeli and British governments acted as partners with the highest levels of the American government to help in the preparation and, very possibly, the actual execution of the attacks."

     
  20. Colorado Ryder

    Colorado Ryder New Member

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    Is it really speculative? Let's look at some facts from the so-called "independent"
    reporters that the Wurmster loves to quote. Some of the facts come directly from the "vaunted" Guardian.

    2/26/93 - WTC bombed.

    4/19/95 - OKC Murrah building bombed.

    June 1995 - US government declines offer of Sudan's intelligence on Bin-Laden and Al-Queda.

    6/25/96 - Khobar Towers bombed.

    8/07/98 - US Embassies in Africa bombed.

    1998 - FBI agent warns of numerous Arab males taking flight training in the US. Top FBI officials dismiss report.

    November 1998 - based on warnings from German government, US and German intelligence begin surveillance of Atta in Germany.

    June 2000 - all hijackers are in the US receiving flight training at private schools. Another FBI agent warns about the numbers of Arab males taking flight training in US. Memo dismissed as unsubstantiated.

    10/12/00 - USS Cole bombed.

    Looks like there is plenty of blame to go around.
     
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