Has anyone besides Savoldelli ever won a Grand Tour

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Kurgan Gringioni, May 7, 2006.

  1. because of descending skills?

    One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    year's Giro. In the stage to Zoldo Alto, he dropped the other three
    major contenders on the final descent and Basso went ballistic on the
    subsequent final climb to bridge the gap. Simoni blew, it was worth 21
    seconds there and one minute one second to DiLuca.

    The penultimate stage saw Savoldelli get dropped for 2:30 on the
    penultimate climb by Simoni/DiLuca/Rujano, but Savoldelli's descending
    skills brought together the remnants of the early break and the final,
    shallow climb saw the larger group bring back all but 1 minute of that
    gap to preserve Savoldelli's lead.

    Can anyone recall someone winning a GT like this because of descending
    skills? The only other race where I can recall descending skills being
    a decisive factor was the 1991 Milan-San Remo when Kelly caught
    Argentin on the descent of the Poggio.


    thanks,

    K. Gringioni.
     
    Tags:


  2. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > because of descending skills?
    >
    > One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    > possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    > year's Giro. In the stage to Zoldo Alto, he dropped the other three
    > major contenders on the final descent and Basso went ballistic on the
    > subsequent final climb to bridge the gap. Simoni blew, it was worth 21
    > seconds there and one minute one second to DiLuca.
    >
    > The penultimate stage saw Savoldelli get dropped for 2:30 on the
    > penultimate climb by Simoni/DiLuca/Rujano, but Savoldelli's descending
    > skills brought together the remnants of the early break and the final,
    > shallow climb saw the larger group bring back all but 1 minute of that
    > gap to preserve Savoldelli's lead.
    >
    > Can anyone recall someone winning a GT like this because of descending
    > skills? The only other race where I can recall descending skills being
    > a decisive factor was the 1991 Milan-San Remo when Kelly caught
    > Argentin on the descent of the Poggio.
    >
    >
    > thanks,
    >
    > K. Gringioni.
    >

    Arguably, Eddy Merckx in 1972.
     
  3. Tuschinski

    Tuschinski Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > K. Gringioni.


    I'm sure I read about at least one or two other TdF winners that used
    their descent skills to win. Wasn't it Aimar or Pingeon that minimized
    the time loss in descents?

    I'm sure someone can correct me:)
     
  4. benjo maso

    benjo maso Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > because of descending skills?
    >
    > One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    > possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    > year's Giro. In the stage to Zoldo Alto, he dropped the other three
    > major contenders on the final descent and Basso went ballistic on the
    > subsequent final climb to bridge the gap. Simoni blew, it was worth 21
    > seconds there and one minute one second to DiLuca.
    >
    > The penultimate stage saw Savoldelli get dropped for 2:30 on the
    > penultimate climb by Simoni/DiLuca/Rujano, but Savoldelli's descending
    > skills brought together the remnants of the early break and the final,
    > shallow climb saw the larger group bring back all but 1 minute of that
    > gap to preserve Savoldelli's lead.
    >
    > Can anyone recall someone winning a GT like this because of descending
    > skills? The only other race where I can recall descending skills being
    > a decisive factor was the 1991 Milan-San Remo when Kelly caught
    > Argentin on the descent of the Poggio.



    There are several examples. For instance, Fiorenzo Magni, of of the best
    descenders ever ("When I'm pinning the race number I forget I am mortal"),
    in the stage to Bolzano in the Giro of 1951 (beating Van Steenbergen not in
    the climb, but in the descent). One of the most sensational is the Tour 1964
    when in the stage Andorra-Toulouse Anquetil lost 4 minutes to Poulidor in
    the climb of the Envilira. There was a thick fog and everybody was
    descending very cautiously, except Anquetil, who was descending which such a
    speed than nobody even dared to take his wheel. In the valley he had already
    overtaken Poulidor (who because of bad-luck even lost almost tthree minutes
    in the last kilometers). On the other hand, in spite of his descending
    skills Anquetil in the descent of the Gavia (not yet paved) he almost lost
    the Giro 1960 to Gastone Nencini ("For Gastone the descent was what the
    violin was for Paganini"), losing in one of the most impressive descents
    ever no less that 3'34" to the Italian. Unfortunately for Nencini, in the
    last few miles on the flat, Anquetil suddenly got help from some other
    Italians (Lires? French francs? Swiss francs? Dollars? Who knows?) and at
    the finish Nencini's lead was reduced to 2'30", which was not enough - he
    needed 28 seconds more.

    Benjo
     
  5. trg

    trg Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email protected]...
    > because of descending skills?
    >
    > One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    > possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    > year's Giro. In the stage to Zoldo Alto, he dropped the other three
    > major contenders on the final descent and Basso went ballistic on the
    > subsequent final climb to bridge the gap. Simoni blew, it was worth 21
    > seconds there and one minute one second to DiLuca.
    >
    > The penultimate stage saw Savoldelli get dropped for 2:30 on the
    > penultimate climb by Simoni/DiLuca/Rujano, but Savoldelli's descending
    > skills brought together the remnants of the early break and the final,
    > shallow climb saw the larger group bring back all but 1 minute of that
    > gap to preserve Savoldelli's lead.
    >
    > Can anyone recall someone winning a GT like this because of descending
    > skills? The only other race where I can recall descending skills being
    > a decisive factor was the 1991 Milan-San Remo when Kelly caught
    > Argentin on the descent of the Poggio.
    >
    >
    > thanks,
    >
    > K. Gringioni.
    >


    Roberto Heras*, 2005 Vuelta, Stage 15, La Colladiella
     
  6. Jenko

    Jenko Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > because of descending skills?


    Heras last year in the Vuelta, although he then lost it and there were other
    skills involved.

    In 1987, Roche took 21 seconds on the yellow jersey Delgado down the Joux-Plane,
    thanks to his teammate Schepers deliberately letting a gap open and obstructing
    the chase. Eventually those seconds were not as decisive, as the Irish easilly
    beat Delgado in the final TT to take the victory by a margin of 40".

    Jenko
     
  7. Jenko

    Jenko Guest

    trg wrote:
    >
    > Roberto Heras*, 2005 Vuelta, Stage 15, La Colladiella


    Talking about rainy descents in Asturias, there's the stage towards the
    Alto del Naranco where Rominger seized the 1993 Vuelta, based not so
    much on his descending skills but on his main rival lack of them. Zülle
    lost 44" that day and ended the race at only 29".

    Jenko
     
  8. Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > because of descending skills?
    >
    > One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    > possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    > year's Giro. In the stage to Zoldo Alto, he dropped the other three
    > major contenders on the final descent and Basso went ballistic on the
    > subsequent final climb to bridge the gap. Simoni blew, it was worth 21
    > seconds there and one minute one second to DiLuca.


    In the 2002 Giro, on stage 6 to Varazze where Jens Heppner
    was in the break and took the pink jersey, there was a wet
    descent to the finish. The favorites in the main bunch took
    it a little easy, but Savoldelli slipped off the front, and nobody
    appeared to regard him as a threat. He finished well back
    of the break but got 44 seconds on the main bunch.
    His winning margin over Tyler Hamilton was 1:41, so
    that descent wasn't the decider, but a significant chunk
    of the time gap. He also put a few seconds on the other
    contenders and got a 2nd place time bonus on stage 16
    to Corvara in Badia with a descent that was amazing to watch.
     
  9. Let's not forget Savoldelli is no mean climber either, on a good day...
    didn't he take a mountain top finish as well, pipping Basso to the line in
    the last Giro?

    I'd love to see a descending shootout between Savoldelli and Samuel Sanchez
    sometime.

    Alexander
    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email protected]
    > because of descending skills?
    >
    > One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    > possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    > year's Giro. In the stage to Zoldo Alto, he dropped the other three
    > major contenders on the final descent and Basso went ballistic on the
    > subsequent final climb to bridge the gap. Simoni blew, it was worth 21
    > seconds there and one minute one second to DiLuca.
    >
    > The penultimate stage saw Savoldelli get dropped for 2:30 on the
    > penultimate climb by Simoni/DiLuca/Rujano, but Savoldelli's descending
    > skills brought together the remnants of the early break and the final,
    > shallow climb saw the larger group bring back all but 1 minute of that
    > gap to preserve Savoldelli's lead.
    >
    > Can anyone recall someone winning a GT like this because of descending
    > skills? The only other race where I can recall descending skills being
    > a decisive factor was the 1991 Milan-San Remo when Kelly caught
    > Argentin on the descent of the Poggio.
    >
    >
    > thanks,
    >
    > K. Gringioni.
    >
     
  10. Alexander Lackner wrote:
    > Let's not forget Savoldelli is no mean climber either, on a good day...
    > didn't he take a mountain top finish as well, pipping Basso to the line in
    > the last Giro?




    Dumbass -


    That was the stage to Zoldo Alto. He dropped Simoni, DiLuca and Basso
    on the descent. Basso went into the red to get up to Savoldelli,
    dropping Simoni and DiLuca in the process. Advantage: Salvodelli,
    because he was able to ride within himself. Then he drafted Basso the
    rest of the way up and took him at the line.

    Basso had incentive to ride that way because he was in pink at the
    time. Obviously Savoldelli is a good climber, but I doubt that he would
    have been able to win that stage if he didn't have the head start into
    the climb.

    I like his style because he's makes full use of all his talents and the
    dropping everyone on the descent tactic is something that hardly anyone
    can do. Plus he always sprays the podium girls with champagne.


    thanks,

    K. Gringioni.
     
  11. benjo maso wrote:
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > because of descending skills?
    > >
    > > One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    > > possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    > > year's Giro. In the stage to Zoldo Alto, he dropped the other three
    > > major contenders on the final descent and Basso went ballistic on the
    > > subsequent final climb to bridge the gap. Simoni blew, it was worth 21
    > > seconds there and one minute one second to DiLuca.
    > >
    > > The penultimate stage saw Savoldelli get dropped for 2:30 on the
    > > penultimate climb by Simoni/DiLuca/Rujano, but Savoldelli's descending
    > > skills brought together the remnants of the early break and the final,
    > > shallow climb saw the larger group bring back all but 1 minute of that
    > > gap to preserve Savoldelli's lead.
    > >
    > > Can anyone recall someone winning a GT like this because of descending
    > > skills? The only other race where I can recall descending skills being
    > > a decisive factor was the 1991 Milan-San Remo when Kelly caught
    > > Argentin on the descent of the Poggio.

    >
    >
    > There are several examples. For instance, Fiorenzo Magni, of of the best
    > descenders ever ("When I'm pinning the race number I forget I am mortal"),
    > in the stage to Bolzano in the Giro of 1951 (beating Van Steenbergen not in
    > the climb, but in the descent). One of the most sensational is the Tour 1964
    > when in the stage Andorra-Toulouse Anquetil lost 4 minutes to Poulidor in
    > the climb of the Envilira. There was a thick fog and everybody was
    > descending very cautiously, except Anquetil, who was descending which such a
    > speed than nobody even dared to take his wheel. In the valley he had already
    > overtaken Poulidor (who because of bad-luck even lost almost tthree minutes
    > in the last kilometers). On the other hand, in spite of his descending
    > skills Anquetil in the descent of the Gavia (not yet paved) he almost lost
    > the Giro 1960 to Gastone Nencini ("For Gastone the descent was what the
    > violin was for Paganini"), losing in one of the most impressive descents
    > ever no less that 3'34" to the Italian. Unfortunately for Nencini, in the
    > last few miles on the flat, Anquetil suddenly got help from some other
    > Italians (Lires? French francs? Swiss francs? Dollars? Who knows?) and at
    > the finish Nencini's lead was reduced to 2'30", which was not enough - he
    > needed 28 seconds more.




    Dumbass -

    I suppose the only place to read about these exploits is in one of your
    books?

    thanks,

    K. Gringioni.
     
  12. benjo maso

    benjo maso Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > benjo maso wrote:
    >> "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >> > because of descending skills?
    >> >
    >> > One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    >> > possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    >> > year's Giro. In the stage to Zoldo Alto, he dropped the other three
    >> > major contenders on the final descent and Basso went ballistic on the
    >> > subsequent final climb to bridge the gap. Simoni blew, it was worth 21
    >> > seconds there and one minute one second to DiLuca.
    >> >
    >> > The penultimate stage saw Savoldelli get dropped for 2:30 on the
    >> > penultimate climb by Simoni/DiLuca/Rujano, but Savoldelli's descending
    >> > skills brought together the remnants of the early break and the final,
    >> > shallow climb saw the larger group bring back all but 1 minute of that
    >> > gap to preserve Savoldelli's lead.
    >> >
    >> > Can anyone recall someone winning a GT like this because of descending
    >> > skills? The only other race where I can recall descending skills being
    >> > a decisive factor was the 1991 Milan-San Remo when Kelly caught
    >> > Argentin on the descent of the Poggio.

    >>
    >>
    >> There are several examples. For instance, Fiorenzo Magni, of of the best
    >> descenders ever ("When I'm pinning the race number I forget I am
    >> mortal"),
    >> in the stage to Bolzano in the Giro of 1951 (beating Van Steenbergen not
    >> in
    >> the climb, but in the descent). One of the most sensational is the Tour
    >> 1964
    >> when in the stage Andorra-Toulouse Anquetil lost 4 minutes to Poulidor in
    >> the climb of the Envilira. There was a thick fog and everybody was
    >> descending very cautiously, except Anquetil, who was descending which
    >> such a
    >> speed than nobody even dared to take his wheel. In the valley he had
    >> already
    >> overtaken Poulidor (who because of bad-luck even lost almost tthree
    >> minutes
    >> in the last kilometers). On the other hand, in spite of his descending
    >> skills Anquetil in the descent of the Gavia (not yet paved) he almost
    >> lost
    >> the Giro 1960 to Gastone Nencini ("For Gastone the descent was what the
    >> violin was for Paganini"), losing in one of the most impressive descents
    >> ever no less that 3'34" to the Italian. Unfortunately for Nencini, in the
    >> last few miles on the flat, Anquetil suddenly got help from some other
    >> Italians (Lires? French francs? Swiss francs? Dollars? Who knows?) and at
    >> the finish Nencini's lead was reduced to 2'30", which was not enough - he
    >> needed 28 seconds more.

    >
    >
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > I suppose the only place to read about these exploits is in one of your
    > books?


    No, I'm afraid I don't mention them in one my books on bicycle racing (I've
    written only two). About the Giro 1951 I've heard from Rik Van Steenbergen
    himself. He also told me that the night before, Magni had offered him a lot
    of lires to bribe him, but - contrary to his usual practice - he had
    refused, being convinced thinking Magni couldn't drop him in the climb
    (which he couldn't), but Rik just didn't have the nerve and the technique to
    descend as fast as Magni, who was really a virtuoso (in 1951 Wim van Est was
    following Magni in the descent of the Aubisque, until a certain bend which
    Magni could take and Wim not (so he fell into a ravine). About the Envilera
    and the Gavia can be find in several books about Anquetil (Roger Bastide's
    for instance). In the Gavia also in Riccardo Nencini's excellent book on his
    uncle Gastone: "Il giallo e il rosa" (the quote on Paganini is from that
    book).

    Benjo
     
  13. Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > because of descending skills?
    >
    > One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    > possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    > year's Giro. In the stage to Zoldo Alto, he dropped the other three
    > major contenders on the final descent and Basso went ballistic on the
    > subsequent final climb to bridge the gap. Simoni blew, it was worth 21
    > seconds there and one minute one second to DiLuca.
    >
    > The penultimate stage saw Savoldelli get dropped for 2:30 on the
    > penultimate climb by Simoni/DiLuca/Rujano, but Savoldelli's descending
    > skills brought together the remnants of the early break and the final,
    > shallow climb saw the larger group bring back all but 1 minute of that
    > gap to preserve Savoldelli's lead.
    >
    > Can anyone recall someone winning a GT like this because of descending
    > skills? The only other race where I can recall descending skills being
    > a decisive factor was the 1991 Milan-San Remo when Kelly caught
    > Argentin on the descent of the Poggio.
    >
    >
    > thanks,
    >
    > K. Gringioni.


    Savoldelli didn't win because he descended well, he won because he
    didn't try to climb with the pure climbers. He had the patience and
    maturity to climb within his limits rather than digging too deep and
    blowing up. He didn't lose too much time, and he made it up on the
    descents. If he'd blown, and lost huge chunks of time, he wouldn't
    have been able to make it up on the descents. It was pacing, not
    descending, that allowed him to win.

    Fred
     
  14. Raptor

    Raptor Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > In the 2002 Giro,... He also put a few seconds on the other
    > contenders and got a 2nd place time bonus on stage 16
    > to Corvara in Badia with a descent that was amazing to watch.


    I believe I saw that ride. He left zero margin for error on those
    hairpin turns. Sadly, it seems it's not available on DVD, or VHS.

    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
    I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the
    trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view,
    the most insidious of traitors."
    George H.W. Bush, April 16, 1999,
     
  15. Donald Munro

    Donald Munro Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >> One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    >> possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    >> year's Giro.


    fred.garvin wrote:
    > Savoldelli didn't win because he descended well, he won because he
    > didn't try to climb with the pure climbers. He had the patience and
    > maturity to climb within his limits rather than digging too deep and
    > blowing up.


    But if he wasn't such a good descender he would not have won regardless of
    how well he paced himself.
     
  16. Donald Munro

    Donald Munro Guest

    benjo maso wrote:
    > No, I'm afraid I don't mention them in one my books on bicycle racing (I've
    > written only two). About the Giro 1951 I've heard from Rik Van Steenbergen
    > himself. He also told me that the night before, Magni had offered him a lot
    > of lires to bribe him, but - contrary to his usual practice - he had
    > refused, being convinced thinking Magni couldn't drop him in the climb
    > (which he couldn't), but Rik just didn't have the nerve and the technique to
    > descend as fast as Magni, who was really a virtuoso (in 1951 Wim van Est was
    > following Magni in the descent of the Aubisque, until a certain bend which
    > Magni could take and Wim not (so he fell into a ravine). About the Envilera
    > and the Gavia can be find in several books about Anquetil (Roger Bastide's
    > for instance). In the Gavia also in Riccardo Nencini's excellent book on his
    > uncle Gastone: "Il giallo e il rosa" (the quote on Paganini is from that
    > book).


    Thanks. Who said rbr is not worth reading now and then.
     
  17. On 7 May 2006 14:33:16 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

    >Savoldelli didn't win because he descended well, he won because he
    >didn't try to climb with the pure climbers. He had the patience and
    >maturity to climb within his limits rather than digging too deep and
    >blowing up. He didn't lose too much time, and he made it up on the
    >descents. If he'd blown, and lost huge chunks of time, he wouldn't
    >have been able to make it up on the descents. It was pacing, not
    >descending, that allowed him to win.


    Question for those that know more than I do: how much does blowing up
    on the climb impair a descender going down? Just wondering, knowing
    that I'm definitely not as safe if I descend when hammered - but it
    generally isn't an issue whether I ride the brake levers or not.

    I've seen a few adrenaline-impaired descents almost go over a stone
    wall, so there must be some impact.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...
     
  18. Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > because of descending skills?


    Your pal Lemond with his alleged 70 mph descent of the Tourmalet in the
    1990 TdF.
     
  19. Donald Munro wrote:
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > >> One can make a very convincing argument that if Savoldelli did not
    > >> possess his awesome descending skills, he would not have won last
    > >> year's Giro.

    >
    > fred.garvin wrote:
    > > Savoldelli didn't win because he descended well, he won because he
    > > didn't try to climb with the pure climbers. He had the patience and
    > > maturity to climb within his limits rather than digging too deep and
    > > blowing up.

    >
    > But if he wasn't such a good descender he would not have won regardless of
    > how well he paced himself.


    Not really. He could've perhaps ridden just a tiny bit harder, losing
    a little less time on the climb, and therefore wouldn't have needed to
    descend as well as he does.

    I'll admit, one thing that may contribute to his willingness to watch
    the leaders ride away from him on the climbs, resisting the urge to
    follow at all costs, is the confidence he has that he can probably
    catch them on the way down.

    Anyway, it's a chicken v. egg sort of thing, I guess. If hadn't paced
    well, he'd have lost more time, if he paced even better and lost a
    little less time on the way up, he wouldn't have needed to descend as
    well.

    The impressive thing, I think, is that he shows the maturity NOT to
    ride above his limits, whether uphill or downhill.

    Fred
     
  20. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    Anybody else notice that Henry was ALMOST human there for a second?
     
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