Has the UCI dumped Armstrong ?

[poulidor]

Labs should be completely and utterly beyond reproach. LLND has had many cases where atheletes have gotten off because of suspect procedures and documentation and they don't seem to have taken much of a hit...

Have a little read of this and see what goes on with samples, that are probably the most important samples that LLND had ever taken:

http://www.arniebakercycling.com/floyd/book_main/The%20Wiki%20Defense%202.0.pdf

Have a read a pages 25 and 26 in particular and prepare to wince...It's truely cringeworthy. Even if only 1/2 of what's claimed in that document is true, that case should have been thrown out in short order. If I couldn't get away with stuff like that in my English or Biology homework for my O levels when I was 15 and 16, then professionals whose procedures can determine the livelyhood of atheletes shouldn't be allowed to get away with documentation that sloppy. Their work should be held to a very, very high standard - one that's beyond question.

If the labs don't know the identity of an athelete, how come the LLND tech who tested Landis's sample knew it was his and curiously admited that she knew it was when questioned? Unfortunately for Floyd, he took a seldom used drug for his necrotic hip that made his tests stand out like a lighthouse of a foggy night... Sometimes Theraputic Use exemptions are just as good as a printed name and signature...

And riders should be clean... everyone would have a clean world but that will never happen, so don't say we need a perfect case to punish someone, or you would only punish the porr guy enough stupid to not find an error in a big procedure. That is why there is a middle between the ideal and the worst.

About knowing Landis'sample, it's very simple because it was the B sample for which Floyd's people were there to supervise the retesting. Not difficult to guess what was on with all media circus made by Landis' PR.

 

[limerickman]

Then how come he got a two year ban and lost his appeal at CAS?

Yeah, if the labs were as corrupt, as certain accused riders and accused riders supporters claim, both USADA and CAS upheld the tests and the test results.

 

[musette]

A sports lab testing athletes should have to show itself to have integrity and reliability (and not be susceptible to leaks), before it should be entitled to try and get a testing assignment from a national cycling organization or major race or a governmental agency. Because the consequences of a false positive (or leaked information regarding purported positives or procedural allegations) can have such a detrimental effect on an athlete's career, a lab of undemonstrated quality should not be deferred to ***** nilly.

In the case of LA, certain labs in France do have a history with LA. For example, LA demonstrated that at least one lab had very bad procedures and had results that could not be trusted, through the arbitration process and favorable arbitration decision for LA we all know about. It is also widely known that many French people did not like that LA won all those TdFs in a row and the way LA raced (focusing only on the Tour and using his team to the maximum to create a more controlled race). So, we are not operating in a vacuum here. French labs have not always handled LA like any other cyclist, so why should LA defer to the French labs?

 

[limerickman]

Paris Roubaix is on !

 

[slovakguy]

A sports lab testing athletes should have to show itself to have integrity and reliability (and not be susceptible to leaks), before it should be entitled to try and get a testing assignment from a national cycling organization or major race or a governmental agency. Because the consequences of a false positive (or leaked information regarding purported positives or procedural allegations) can have such a detrimental effect on an athlete's career, a lab of undemonstrated quality should not be deferred to ***** nilly.

In the case of LA, certain labs in France do have a history with LA. For example, LA demonstrated that at least one lab had very bad procedures and had results that could not be trusted, through the arbitration process and favorable arbitration decision for LA we all know about. It is also widely known that many French people did not like that LA won all those TdFs in a row and the way LA raced (focusing only on the Tour and using his team to the maximum to create a more controlled race). So, we are not operating in a vacuum here. French labs have not always handled LA like any other cyclist, so why should LA defer to the French labs?

dear, god, not this angle again...

 

[poulidor]

A sports lab testing athletes should have to show itself to have integrity and reliability (and not be susceptible to leaks), before it should be entitled to try and get a testing assignment from a national cycling organization or major race or a governmental agency. Because the consequences of a false positive (or leaked information regarding purported positives or procedural allegations) can have such a detrimental effect on an athlete's career, a lab of undemonstrated quality should not be deferred to ***** nilly.

In the case of LA, certain labs in France do have a history with LA. For example, LA demonstrated that at least one lab had very bad procedures and had results that could not be trusted, through the arbitration process and favorable arbitration decision for LA we all know about. It is also widely known that many French people did not like that LA won all those TdFs in a row and the way LA raced (focusing only on the Tour and using his team to the maximum to create a more controlled race). So, we are not operating in a vacuum here. French labs have not always handled LA like any other cyclist, so why should LA defer to the French labs?

You seems to ignore the cycling history...

May you explain us what happened in 1999 during the second rest day? Why were the French already upset with the first BIG LIES of Lance who had still not won a TDF?

What you widely known is the tales that Lance told you. Without making your own investigation you will stay abused by the 2 liars and cheaters who are Lance and Bruyneel.

 

[swampy1970]

Then how come he got a two year ban and lost his appeal at CAS?

Good question...

Take a read of it. It's obviously a one sided document, given that it's pretty much all of Landis' defense but you gotta wonder to what standards some of these labs work...

 

[swampy1970]

You seems to ignore the cycling history...

May you explain us what happened in 1999 during the second rest day? Why were the French already upset with the first BIG LIES of Lance who had still not won a TDF?

What you widely known is the tales that Lance told you. Without making your own investigation you will stay abused by the 2 liars and cheaters who are Lance and Bruyneel.

You talking about the traces of corticosteroids, that were below the amounts required for a positive with or without the theraputic use exemption, that were found during the 1999 Tour? Or should we really be talking about yet another occaison where French labs leaked a story to the press? I think the front page of L'Equippe was "Amstrong Le Dopage en Corticosteroids" and somewhere on page 32 in uber small font was "but not enough to classify as a positive"...

 

[bing181]

These testing facilities are wholly dependent upon their professional reputation to carry out all sorts of tests, in a clinical/objective way.

And it has to be stressed that these laboratories are independent labs - they're not setup by, or controlled by, WADA or any other antii-doping body.
They're independent clinical facilities.

Woah there ... independent? These labs are commercial enterprises, 100% dependant on their clients for their survival. i.e. Wada etc. etc.

It's in the labs' interests to find "cheats" (whether they're there or not). On the other hand, it's not in their interest to be found making mistakes or using sloppy work practises.

As you were.

B

 

[Leafer]

Woah there ... independent? These labs are commercial enterprises, 100% dependant on their clients for their survival. i.e. Wada etc. etc.

It's in the labs' interests to find "cheats" (whether they're there or not). On the other hand, it's not in their interest to be found making mistakes or using sloppy work practises.

As you were.

B

LNDD is a national lab, ie it's owned, operated, and funded by the French government.

 

[jimmypop]

A sports lab testing athletes should have to show itself to have integrity and reliability (and not be susceptible to leaks), before it should be entitled to try and get a testing assignment from a national cycling organization or major race or a governmental agency. Because the consequences of a false positive (or leaked information regarding purported positives or procedural allegations) can have such a detrimental effect on an athlete's career, a lab of undemonstrated quality should not be deferred to ***** nilly.

In the case of LA, certain labs in France do have a history with LA. For example, LA demonstrated that at least one lab had very bad procedures and had results that could not be trusted, through the arbitration process and favorable arbitration decision for LA we all know about. It is also widely known that many French people did not like that LA won all those TdFs in a row and the way LA raced (focusing only on the Tour and using his team to the maximum to create a more controlled race). So, we are not operating in a vacuum here. French labs have not always handled LA like any other cyclist, so why should LA defer to the French labs?

You're too simple for this discussion. Move on.

 

[limerickman]

Woah there ... independent? These labs are commercial enterprises, 100% dependant on their clients for their survival. i.e. Wada etc. etc.

It's in the labs' interests to find "cheats" (whether they're there or not). On the other hand, it's not in their interest to be found making mistakes or using sloppy work practises.

As you were.

B

Commercial enterprise?

Chatennay Malabry is a state funding testing facility.

WADA did not setup Chatennay Malabry.


Before trying to caste apersions about this or that laboratory......laboratories accredited by WADA, were not set up by, or funded by WADA.
The laboratories accredited by WADA are, in most cases, laboratories which have been carrying out clinical tests for years, decades.

 

[classic1]

Good question...

Take a read of it. It's obviously a one sided document, given that it's pretty much all of Landis' defense but you gotta wonder to what standards some of these labs work...

My understanding was that there were legitimate questions about handling of samples for the first test over the T/E ratios (not corrupt, more like amateur hour), but the results for tests for the artificial testosterone (the more thorough isotape testing) were all above board.

I did read some of the CAS stuff when it was available but my eyes started glazing over. Life is to short. Here are a couple of stories from Velonews about the ban. First one is the initial case, the second the CAS decision. Both have links to the findings and links to other stories. CAS basically tore Landis and his legal team a new ********.

http://velonews.com/article/13354

http://velonews.com/article/79029

 

[swampy1970]

My understanding was that there were legitimate questions about handling of samples for the first test over the T/E ratios (not corrupt, more like amateur hour), but the results for tests for the artificial testosterone (the more thorough isotape testing) were all above board.

I did read some of the CAS stuff when it was available but my eyes started glazing over. Life is to short. Here are a couple of stories from Velonews about the ban. First one is the initial case, the second the CAS decision. Both have links to the findings and links to other stories. CAS basically tore Landis and his legal team a new ********.

http://velonews.com/article/13354

http://velonews.com/article/79029

The actual test itself may have been above board and spot on but the documentation that followed had dozens of errors such as incorrect sample numbers, samples done out of sequence, errors not notated or initialed, lab techs knowing who's sample it was (and testified to this under oath), data on harddrives wiped prior to inspection, data from harddrives copied to CD and hardrives moved to other devices thus negating any chance of digital forensics being possible and thus leaving the data open to the possibility of tampering.... Hardly the kind of thing you'd expect from a world class lab. And given that quite a few atheletes from other sports have got their cases dropped due to such errors from said lab, then it's not a unique situation.

Flip the coin and you get situtations where someone like Petacchi, who has a theraputic exemption for the asthma drug salbutamol, was ever so slightly over the limit on one stage of the Giro in 2007, probably due to taking his meds once too much during a stage. He was banned, despite the fact that it is well recognised in the scientific community that in non-asthmatic atheletes salbutamol doesn't really have an effect and in asthmatics, once you get over the regular dose the effects of an additional inhilation are minimal.

One press of the inhaler too many = ban. A whole slew of lab errors = oh well, nevermind.

... and yes, I suffer from a pulmonary condition and take salbutamol before exercise and from data from the ol' powermeter, speedometer and heart rate - there aint no difference to be found taking that extra dose. I was kinda curious at the time if what I read was really true. ... and it turned out to be.
It's the fact that labs and riders are seemingly not held to the same standards that pisses me of the most.

That and the French and their willingness to "leak" test information to the press almost immediately when a non-French rider is involved.

 

[poulidor]

The actual test itself may have been above board and spot on but the documentation that followed had dozens of errors such as incorrect sample numbers, samples done out of sequence, errors not notated or initialed, lab techs knowing who's sample it was (and testified to this under oath), data on harddrives wiped prior to inspection, data from harddrives copied to CD and hardrives moved to other devices thus negating any chance of digital forensics being possible and thus leaving the data open to the possibility of tampering.... Hardly the kind of thing you'd expect from a world class lab. And given that quite a few atheletes from other sports have got their cases dropped due to such errors from said lab, then it's not a unique situation.

I don't know what kind of job you do, but try to put a 1000pages document without errors... and then come back to discuss of that.
All those reported errors have been considered to not affect the case, and, as you pointed, some doping cases have been cleared by past when errors were to big.
( lab's tech were knowing that samples belonged to Floyd because of Landis' PR announcing the retesting and his witnesses were present to control the retesting. Maybe do you want to isolate the tech of the media world when a doping case has been found?)

That and the French and their willingness to "leak" test information to the press almost immediately when a non-French rider is involved.

There is no leak of french riders cases because they only didn't exist since a while!

 

[Flyer]

I don't know what kind of job you do, but try to put a 1000pages document without errors... and then come back to discuss of that.
All those reported errors have been considered to not affect the case, and, as you pointed, some doping cases have been cleared by past when errors were to big.
( lab's tech were knowing that samples belonged to Floyd because of Landis' PR announcing the retesting and his witnesses were present to control the retesting. Maybe do you want to isolate the tech of the media world when a doping case has been found?)

There is no leak of french riders cases because they only didn't exist since a while!

wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

 

[Leafer]

That and the French and their willingness to "leak" test information to the press almost immediately when a non-French rider is involved.

What "test information" did they leak, exactly? It was Armstrong who first posted that all the tests came back negative.

This blame the French and the French labs is getting really old. Armstrong was - probably still is - a doper. That's not the labs fault, it's not the fault of the French, it's not Kimmage's or Lemond's or Walsh's fault. It was his own choice. Well, Ferrari and Bruyneel probably had a hand in it, too.

Jesus, just deal with it.

 

[earth_dweller]

Jesus, just deal with it.

ah there's the crux. Many have somehow linked their own self to Armstrong. They became fan of the man for his comeback from cancer and winning the Tour de France, have embraced the mythology behind the PR and somehow the connection became more than being a fan, it became part of their own self worth. If they admit now that Armstrong doped and cheated, it means that they were wrong and that is unacceptable.

well that's my opinion.

 

[tonyzackery]

To stir the pot a little more,

With regard to people that still believe in the innocence of Hamilton, Landis, Armstrong, etc...listening to their followers/supporters/retinue you can readily understand the how and why OJ got off in his criminal trial. Find a technicality here, cast some reasonable doubt there, attack the lab/police/detectives, leak information to sway public opinion, play like the victim, and voila - who got people convinced you couldn't be guilty of killing a fly irrespective of that gorilla-sized amount of evidence sitting in the room...

In Los Angeles, OJ got off. In America, Lance Armstrong will forever wear the teflon suit. Take OJ to Simi Valley, a vastly different demographic than Los Angeles, and you got your conviction. Now if Lance was ever charged with something in France and tried in France, you better believe he goes down just like OJ.

The phase 'we believe what we want to believe' and the converse couldn't be any more veracious in these cases...

 

[jimmypop]

ah there's the crux. Many have somehow linked their own self to Armstrong. They became fan of the man for his comeback from cancer and winning the Tour de France, have embraced the mythology behind the PR and somehow the connection became more than being a fan, it became part of their own self worth. If they admit now that Armstrong doped and cheated, it means that they were wrong and that is unacceptable.

well that's my opinion.

Hero-worship always leads to the same place: disappointment.