Have some hard choices to make



bgoetz

Active Member
Nov 25, 2010
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I am in need of a new race bike. I have done tons of racing this year with just one bike for both training and racing, but I am realizing that I need a second bike. I am plan to buy a new bike and have my current as my training/nasty (dirt/pave race) bike. I want to be reasonable with what I buy with the perspective that I have taken a 2006 model 9spd aluminum bike, invested in a couple of great wheel set options that get it just under 18lbs and have done really well this season. It is just NOT about the bike, but I think with newer technology I can gain some stiffness, will have a 10spd for neutral wheel car days, and will have 2 race bikes. I pretty much have my mind made up on a Caad 10 3 (ultegra/FSA SLK), and the new colors (white with a little red) are exactly what I am looking for. I can pick one up for $2100, sell the wheels for $200 (I don't need more wheels) for a net $1900.

However, today I was in my LBS and they have a Caad 10 5 (105/FSA gossomer) that has a small paint chip on the top tube that I can pick up for $1000!! However, it is red with some white, which is my least favorite color. I could pick this bike up, sell the wheels and components, swap over to (Ultegra/FSA SLK) and have around $1450 in the bike, so the same bike as the Caad 10 3 for $450 less.

I have also been doing some stage races and time trials and it seems that I really enjoy time trials and am pretty good at them, but I don't have a time trial bike. At this point I will not be able to do any of the above options and get a TT bike and I will just continue using a road bike with aero bars and a seat/seatpost change. But if I just keep the Caad 10 5 "as is", I will only have $850 in it after I sell off the wheels, if I went this route I could swing a Cannondale Slice with the 105 components and have a TT bike and 2 road bikes. This option will get me minimal to no weight savings from what I have currently.

I am just not sure what to do:

option #1- wait and get the bike that I want in the exact color that I want

option #2- get the Caad 10 5, swap components and have the bike that I would like just not the same color, and with a paint chip.

option #3- get the Caad 10 5, figure 105 components will perform nearly as well as Ultegra (likely better than my 2006 ultegra), and then buy a TT bike with average components.

Wheels should not be a consideration with any of my options, I have some Ksyrium SLs and Easton EC 90s.

If you think that there is a better "other" option, let me know, but I am only really in the market for a Cannondale as that is what my LBS has to offer.
 
Originally Posted by bgoetz .

I am in need of a new race bike. I have done tons of racing this year with just one bike for both training and racing, but I am realizing that I need a second bike. I am plan to buy a new bike and have my current as my training/nasty (dirt/pave race) bike. I want to be reasonable with what I buy with the perspective that I have taken a 2006 model 9spd aluminum bike, invested in a couple of great wheel set options that get it just under 18lbs and have done really well this season. It is just NOT about the bike, but I think with newer technology I can gain some stiffness, will have a 10spd for neutral wheel car days, and will have 2 race bikes. I pretty much have my mind made up on a Caad 10 3 (ultegra/FSA SLK), and the new colors (white with a little red) are exactly what I am looking for. I can pick one up for $2100, sell the wheels for $200 (I don't need more wheels) for a net $1900.

However, today I was in my LBS and they have a Caad 10 5 (105/FSA gossomer) that has a small paint chip on the top tube that I can pick up for $1000!! However, it is red with some white, which is my least favorite color. I could pick this bike up, sell the wheels and components, swap over to (Ultegra/FSA SLK) and have around $1450 in the bike, so the same bike as the Caad 10 3 for $450 less.

I have also been doing some stage races and time trials and it seems that I really enjoy time trials and am pretty good at them, but I don't have a time trial bike. At this point I will not be able to do any of the above options and get a TT bike and I will just continue using a road bike with aero bars and a seat/seatpost change. But if I just keep the Caad 10 5 "as is", I will only have $850 in it after I sell off the wheels, if I went this route I could swing a Cannondale Slice with the 105 components and have a TT bike and 2 road bikes. This option will get me minimal to no weight savings from what I have currently.

I am just not sure what to do:

option #1- wait and get the bike that I want in the exact color that I want

option #2- get the Caad 10 5, swap components and have the bike that I would like just not the same color, and with a paint chip.

option #3- get the Caad 10 5, figure 105 components will perform nearly as well as Ultegra (likely better than my 2006 ultegra), and then buy a TT bike with average components.

Wheels should not be a consideration with any of my options, I have some Ksyrium SLs and Easton EC 90s.

If you think that there is a better "other" option, let me know, but I am only really in the market for a Cannondale as that is what my LBS has to offer.
If you are already <18LBS with your aluminum road bike, you will gain almost no advantage upgrading your road bike frame. You already said that wheels are a separate issue, with which I agree. You will, however, gain a huge advantage in TTs with a TT frame and setup. You simply can't get in the most aero position on a road bike with TT bars and you pay a big price for being in a suboptimal position. Also, you didn't say anything about a power meter so I don't know what you have. But, if you don't now have a PM, I would put that investment ahead of everything else, including the TT bike. If your racing includes a lot of climbing, you may eventually want to get a new road bike configuration to get down to ~13LBS, but that has more to do with components than frame. BTW, if you decide to get a TT bike, be sure you ride the actual frame before you buy it. Handling in the aero position is a big deal and there are some TT bikes that I feel unsafe on at anything >20mph and there are others that I feel rock solid on at 50mph. And, when I say test ride the actual frame, I don't mean cruise around the parking lot. Find a hill where you can get up to at least 40mph and get in the aero position. You should feel as though you're riding on rails. BTW, well done on your progress this year.
 
Thanks! I have considered a PM and think it would be good for me, it is just that they are such an investment. If you get a Cycleopps then you have to get a powertap for each wheelset, if you get a SRM then you have to get one for each bike you have and all new bikes you buy. I am just not sure that I am ready to make the jump to training with power. The main reason I need a 2nd bike is to have 2 bikes, so I can use my current road bike for training in bad weather and have a road bike that is more dedicated to racing. With regards to weight, we did actually weigh the 2 yesterday and the Caad 10 105 is around 8 ounces lighter than my bike. I also hope to gain a considerable amount of stiffness with the Caad 10 over my bike, as it is just a better built frame and it has BB30. If I decided to go with the Caad 10 ultegra I would guess it to be well over 1lb lighter than my current bike.

I do really feel that a TT bike would be good for me, which is still leading me to option #3. Heck if I buy the bike and decide I don't want a TT bike, I could always switch to option #2, so I am still kinda leaning towards pulling the trigger on this bike.
 
Originally Posted by bgoetz .

Thanks! I have considered a PM and think it would be good for me, it is just that they are such an investment. If you get a Cycleopps then you have to get a powertap for each wheelset, if you get a SRM then you have to get one for each bike you have and all new bikes you buy. I am just not sure that I am ready to make the jump to training with power. The main reason I need a 2nd bike is to have 2 bikes, so I can use my current road bike for training in bad weather and have a road bike that is more dedicated to racing. With regards to weight, we did actually weigh the 2 yesterday and the Caad 10 105 is around 8 ounces lighter than my bike. I also hope to gain a considerable amount of stiffness with the Caad 10 over my bike, as it is just a better built frame and it has BB30. If I decided to go with the Caad 10 ultegra I would guess it to be well over 1lb lighter than my current bike.

I do really feel that a TT bike would be good for me, which is still leading me to option #3. Heck if I buy the bike and decide I don't want a TT bike, I could always switch to option #2, so I am still kinda leaning towards pulling the trigger on this bike.
The tradeoffs you cite regarding power are true, although I train and race on the same rear wheel -- a 46mm carbon clincher rim with PT hub. I have a couple of different front rims, depending on wind, but that is not affected by choice of PM. You will soon have the option of pedal spindles from Garmin. It will be the least expensive option to have power on multiple bikes. But, as a disclaimer, I have no direct experience with the Garmin pedal spindle PM (renamed Vector). I assume it will be launched at Interbike in September. I plan to take a look at it then. I'm guessing they will price it at about $500 to position it as the low-cost PM.

I don't think gaining a 1LB weight advantage is worth much. Slashing 5LBs is a big deal on climbs, but to do that you have to buy some pricey components. Frames <1KG are widely available today, but you have to be prepared to spend some bucks to slash weight on components (fork, wheels, drivetrain, bars, etc.).

If you're serious about TTs, there just aren't any good options to getting a dedicated TT rig. It's all about reducing resistance everywhere you can and reducing wind resistance is mostly about riding position. You just can't get there on a road bike, so you're spotting the other competitors a couple of minutes in a 40K TT before the start signal.
 
Wow that is a tough decision. To be honest, $2000 isn't a lot to work with, especially for two bikes. I sort of agree with RapDaddyo that the Caad 10 probably won't buy you any more speed. It's a nicer bike and it might be stiffer but honestly that's not going to make a world of difference unless you are bending the frame so much in a sprint that it's wrecking the handling or the fork is bending and the brake pads are rubbing. The main advantage of it in a race, frankly, is that it's 10 speed so you will have more wheel support options. To get more speed you need to drop a few pounds or get more aero.

I think you should look for used bikes instead. What I do is to look for people who bought a really nice brand new bike and then never used it. There are a fair number of people like this around and you can get great deals. Take your time looking though. You'll know when you find the right thing because it will be a screaming deal. E.g., this past year I bought a hardly used (but couple year old) Look 496 TT bike w/DA 7800 for $1800 from a guy who wanted to do triathlons and then never had the time, and then bought some spotless HED Stinger 6/9 wheels for $1000 from another tri guy to put on it (they are $2500ish new and these were pristine!), so now I have a fantastic looking >$5000 TT setup that cost me half that. Just start poking around the internet and asking around in your club and you'll find something great I'm sure. Another option would be to buy a used 7800 groupset and put in on your current frame (should probably be able to find something nearly new for like $750). That'll drop your bike weight by one lb or so (versus 105 anyway) and give you 10 speed and would be pretty cheap, and you can always look for a new frame over the winter when there are usually really good used deals around from people upgrading.


The other thing people vastly underestimate is tire rolling resistance. I don't know what kind of tires you use, but it can make a 1mph difference on the flats, which is HUGE. (Check here for rolling resistance data: http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf.) It's well worth looking into if you're racing.
 
I would have $1000 in the road bike and then $2100 in the TT bike, so I actually would have $3100 to work with if I went that route. The $2100 number would be for the Caad 10 Ultegra, and yeah "the boss" would not be ok with me forking out another $2100 for a TT bike on top of that. I just picked up a set of Easton EC90s and have spent quite a bit on racing this year, so she has set her limits.

I would really like to buy new from my LBS, they have been so good to me this entire season, dropping everything to work on my stuff and charging me for just parts in most cases. It is really hard to put a price on what they have done for me this season.

I have Continental Sprinters on my Eastons, they will make it through this season, but I will certainly be in the market for something new for next season. On my Mavics I am using some Kendas that I won at a race and I actually like them quite a bit, I doubt I will need to replace them until mid-season next year and am honestly hoping to win another set at some point. I will take a look at the link you posted to get an idea of what tire to buy, I was thinking Vittoria Corsa Evos.
 
Originally Posted by bgoetz .

I would have $1000 in the road bike and then $2100 in the TT bike, so I actually would have $3100 to work with if I went that route. The $2100 number would be for the Caad 10 Ultegra, and yeah "the boss" would not be ok with me forking out another $2100 for a TT bike on top of that. I just picked up a set of Easton EC90s and have spent quite a bit on racing this year, so she has set her limits.

I would really like to buy new from my LBS, they have been so good to me this entire season, dropping everything to work on my stuff and charging me for just parts in most cases. It is really hard to put a price on what they have done for me this season.

I have Continental Sprinters on my Eastons, they will make it through this season, but I will certainly be in the market for something new for next season. On my Mavics I am using some Kendas that I won at a race and I actually like them quite a bit, I doubt I will need to replace them until mid-season next year and am honestly hoping to win another set at some point. I will take a look at the link you posted to get an idea of what tire to buy, I was thinking Vittoria Corsa Evos.
I agree with lanierb about the importance of tires. The best tire data I have seen was done by a French cycling magazine a few years ago, here: http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-1503651.html.

Unfortunately, these data are now 5 years old and don't include more recent tires such as the Michelin Pro3 Race. But, they do include two important pieces of data not in the Bike Tech Review data: rolling performance in watts and puncture resistance. The rolling performance in watts is pretty amazing. You have a 20 watt difference between the top and bottom of the the list of clinchers. Anybody who trains and races with a power meter knows how hard it is to gain 20 watts. Do you really want to throw away all that effort by uninformed tire selection? FWIW, I use the Michelin Pro3 Race tire for races because it is a good blend of low rolling resistance, pretty good puncture resistance and good handling even in the wet. For training, I like the Maxxis Detonator because they last a long time and come off and go on easy.

To do well in races, you need to do three things: gain power, get light and eliminate resistance where you can within your budget. Gaining experience helps, but I'll take more power over more experience any day. With 200W of power and the knowledge of a touring pro, I don't have a chance. With 350W of power and the knowledge of a day license holder, I'll probably win.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapDaddyo .

Unfortunately, these data are now 5 years old and don't include more recent tires such as the Michelin Pro3 Race. But, they do include two important pieces of data not in the Bike Tech Review data: rolling performance in watts and puncture resistance.

Here is the formula to convert Crr (coefficient of rolling resistance) to watts:

Prr = Vg * Crr * Mt * g * Cos(tan-1(Gr))

where Prr = Power required to overcome rolling resistance, in watts
Vg = ground speed, in meters/second
Mt = totall mass of bike+rider system, in kg
g = acceleration due to gravity (9.81 m/s2)
Gr = road gradient

So, at 25mph, assuming a rider+bike weight of about 90kgs, and on a flat road, to convert to watts you multiply by approximately 10,000. That means that going from Crr=0.002 to Crr=0.004 is worth about 20 watts (consistently over the whole race, whether you are drafting or not, so that's HUGE).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgoetz .
I would really like to buy new from my LBS, they have been so good to me this entire season, dropping everything to work on my stuff and charging me for just parts in most cases. It is really hard to put a price on what they have done for me this season.
Sounds like you are buddies with them. You could ask them to keep an eye out for a really good deal for you, either something they want to close out or a used bike that comes in.

BTW your original plan isn't a bad one -- I just don't think it's going to make you faster. It may make your life easier and you might enjoy riding the new bike more though.
 
Originally Posted by lanierb .

Quote:

Here is the formula to convert Crr (coefficient of rolling resistance) to watts:

Prr = Vg * Crr * Mt * g * Cos(tan-1(Gr))

where Prr = Power required to overcome rolling resistance, in watts
Vg = ground speed, in meters/second
Mt = totall mass of bike+rider system, in kg
g = acceleration due to gravity (9.81 m/s2)
Gr = road gradient

So, at 25mph, assuming a rider+bike weight of about 90kgs, and on a flat road, to convert to watts you multiply by approximately 10,000. That means that going from Crr=0.002 to Crr=0.004 is worth about 20 watts (consistently over the whole race, whether you are drafting or not, so that's HUGE).
Thanks for the formula. And, yes, that's HUGE. I can never understand why people want to work so hard to gain 20 watts in training and then give it away in their choice of the cheapest component on their bike (except maybe the water bottle).
 
Originally Posted by lanierb .

Quote:
Sounds like you are buddies with them. You could ask them to keep an eye out for a really good deal for you, either something they want to close out or a used bike that comes in.

BTW your original plan isn't a bad one -- I just don't think it's going to make you faster. It may make your life easier and you might enjoy riding the new bike more though.
So when you say "original plan" do you mean option #3? Because that is the way I am kinda leaning, I think I will get the most for my $ on the road bike and a TT bike will most deffinately make me faster in time trials
 
Originally Posted by bgoetz .




So when you say "original plan" do you mean option #3? Because that is the way I am kinda leaning, I think I will get the most for my $ on the road bike and a TT bike will most deffinately make me faster in time trials
That does sound like a good plan, but even with your shop loyalties you might consider plan 3b...

Buy the road bike from your LBS, maybe even with higher end components if it comes in at a reasonable price. Then find a good TT bike on the used market. You'll still honor some good old shop loyalty but TT bikes lose a ton of market value the day people take them home, they rarely get abused or crashed the way road bikes do and they're readily available on Craigslist or eBay.

It kinda splits the difference on bringing some retail business to your friends at the shop and finding a nice TT bike at a good price and makes a lot of sense in that roadies tend to spend a heck of a lot more time and do many more of their races on the road bike as opposed to the TT bike which tends to get a lot less use. I suspect the folks down at your shop would totally understand that decision as it's the sort of thing most shop employees I've worked with would do if they couldn't get a screaming shop deal on a new TT bike.

-Dave
 
Hey, thanks Dave!! My wife and I have actually discussed an option very much like this, with yet another modified version in which I still go with the great deal on the 105 bike. This will give me many different options down the road, like going with the new TT bike, buying a used TT bike, or actually taking the components off of the 105 bike and using them to build a TT bike frame up and upgrading the components on the road bike. I already have to swap out the crank on the 105 bike because it is a compact, so I was thinking I could use it on a TT build, although in looking at the #s I am not sure if the compact on a TT bike is such a good idea.

In the end I really want a TT bike and a road bike, but I just can't fit spending $4,500 on bikes this year in to our priorities, so going with the great deal and working from there seems to leave me with many more options depending on how much $ I end up having to work with.