Hayes Hydraulic lever pull question

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Alan McClure, Jun 21, 2003.

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  1. Alan McClure

    Alan McClure Guest

    Hey everyone, I recently installed a hayes mag on my front wheel. It brakes just fine, but the lever
    comes back further and feels softer than my v brake. I don't know if this is normal, because I've
    never had a hayes brake before. I have bled it 3 times just to make sure there are no air bubbles,
    and indeed, there seem to be none. I followed all the good steps including holding the bike at 45
    degrees with the lever facing directly upward etc. In short, I'm pretty sure that I did everything
    correctly. That leads me to think that the lever is just softer than what I'm used to. The lever
    comes back to about 1/2 cm from the grip though, which seems like quite a ways. Anyway, I can't seem
    to find any specific info. about the feeling of the lever or how far back it should come, so
    hopefully someone can give me a bit of guidance. As I mentioned, the brake works, but I want it set
    up correctly if there is indeed a problem.

    Thanks,

    Alan
     
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  2. Michael Dart

    Michael Dart Guest

    "Alan McClure" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hey everyone, I recently installed a hayes mag on my front wheel. It brakes just fine, but the
    > lever comes back further and feels softer than my v brake. I don't know if this is normal, because
    > I've never had a hayes brake before. I have bled it 3 times just to make sure there are no air
    > bubbles, and indeed, there seem to be none. I followed all the good steps including holding the
    > bike at 45 degrees with the lever facing directly upward etc. In short, I'm pretty sure that I did
    > everything correctly. That leads me to think that the lever is just softer than what I'm used to.
    > The lever comes back to about 1/2 cm from the grip though, which seems like quite a ways. Anyway,
    > I can't seem to find any specific info. about the feeling of the lever or how far back it should
    > come, so hopefully someone can give me a bit of guidance. As I mentioned, the brake works, but I
    > want it set up correctly if there is indeed a problem.
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Alan

    A properly set up Hayes lever should travel about an inch at the tip. There is a reach adjusment
    screw where the piston connects to the brass insert in the lever. If you go to bleed it again get a
    syringe (you can find them packaged with injectable maranades for meat at the grocery) to replace
    that squeeze bottle. During the bleed process have someone flick the lever and let it snap back.
    This 'shocks' the system and shakes loose any stubborn bubbles.

    Mike
     
  3. Alan McClure

    Alan McClure Guest

    After a nice morning ride, I have noticed that although the brake is working(as I mentioned), it
    isn't as strong as it should be--I'm using v brakes as a comparison which at this point seem quite a
    bit stronger which I know shouldn't be the case. It seems to me that if there were enough fluid in
    the system then the handle would be stiffer, and the caliper braking better. However, if there is
    some air, then obviously that is a problem, but as far as I can tell from bleeding the system 3
    times, there is no air. If there is, then it is stuck somewhere in the system, and I'm not able to
    remove it for some reason. Yet again, let me mention that I followed to the letter the hayes
    directions for bleeding the brake(3 times). So, I don't know why there would still be a problem. Any
    similar situations out there?

    Thanks again,

    Alan "The Confused"
     
  4. Slacker

    Slacker Guest

    "Alan McClure" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > After a nice morning ride, I have noticed that although the brake is working(as I mentioned), it
    > isn't as strong as it should be--I'm using v brakes as a comparison which at this point seem quite
    > a bit stronger which I know shouldn't be the case. It seems to me that if there were enough fluid
    > in the system then the handle would be stiffer, and the caliper braking better. However, if there
    > is some air, then obviously that is a problem, but as far as I can tell from bleeding the system 3
    > times, there is no air. If there is, then it is stuck somewhere in the system, and I'm not able to
    > remove it for some reason. Yet again, let me mention that I followed to the letter the hayes
    > directions for bleeding the brake(3 times). So, I don't know why there would still be a problem.
    > Any similar situations out there?
    >
    > Thanks again,
    >
    > Alan "The Confused"

    A few questions for you:

    Are these factory assembled or did you do it yourself?

    How new are the pads? Many people see a lack of power till new pads are burned in although mine have
    always been 100% from the beginning.

    Some fairly common problems could be over tightening of the compression sleeve, if your sleeve is
    even or protruding out of the compression nut, it's over torqued. A kinked hose...this had me
    scratching my head for awhile when I kinked mine because no fluid leaked and the brake worked fine
    at first. The inner hose lining was cracked but the fluid stayed within the outer sheath. Sticky
    piston(s)....are they fully retracting after your let off the brakes?

    You sound like you're pretty thorough with Hayes' bleed directions, but just to double check did
    you make sure to do the "squeeze for 5 sec - let off for 3 sec, repeat" because this is the most
    critical part to make sure you have a good air free bleed. Also, when you had the squeeze bottle
    attached and all the air bubbles out, did you watch the master bleed hose to make sure it always
    had fluid in it so it did have a chance to suck air into the master while you closed the caliper
    bleeder screw?

    Then there's always the possibility that they are just defective from the factory. Hopefully, this
    isn't the case, but failures happen. Hayes has always been very helpful the couple times I've
    called them.
    --
    Slacker
     
  5. Alan McClure

    Alan McClure Guest

    "Slacker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Alan McClure" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > After a nice morning ride, I have noticed that although the brake is working(as I mentioned), it
    > > isn't as strong as it should be--I'm using v brakes as a comparison which at this point seem
    > > quite a bit stronger which I know shouldn't be the case. It seems to me that if there were
    > > enough fluid in the system then the handle would be stiffer, and the caliper braking better.
    > > However, if there is some air, then obviously that is a problem, but as far as I can tell from
    > > bleeding the system 3 times, there is no air. If there is, then it is stuck somewhere in the
    > > system, and I'm not able to remove it for some reason. Yet again, let me mention that I followed
    > > to the letter the hayes directions for bleeding the brake(3 times). So, I don't know why there
    > > would still be a problem. Any similar situations out there?
    > >
    > > Thanks again,
    > >
    > > Alan "The Confused"
    >
    > A few questions for you:
    >
    > Are these factory assembled or did you do it yourself?
    >
    > How new are the pads? Many people see a lack of power till new pads are burned in although mine
    > have always been 100% from the beginning.
    >
    > Some fairly common problems could be over tightening of the compression sleeve, if your sleeve is
    > even or protruding out of the compression nut, it's over torqued. A kinked hose...this had me
    > scratching my head for awhile when I kinked mine because no fluid leaked and the brake worked fine
    > at first. The inner hose lining was cracked but the fluid stayed within the outer sheath. Sticky
    > piston(s)....are they fully retracting after your let off the brakes?
    >
    > You sound like you're pretty thorough with Hayes' bleed directions, but just to double check did
    > you make sure to do the "squeeze for 5 sec - let off for 3 sec, repeat" because this is the most
    > critical part to make sure you have a good air free bleed. Also, when you had the squeeze bottle
    > attached and all the air bubbles out, did you watch the master bleed hose to make sure it always
    > had fluid in it so it did have a chance to suck air into the master while you closed the caliper
    > bleeder screw?
    >
    > Then there's always the possibility that they are just defective from the factory. Hopefully, this
    > isn't the case, but failures happen. Hayes has always been very helpful the couple times I've
    > called them.

    Thanks for the feedback guys. Well, I bled the system one more time, and then when there was no
    change I just gave up and took it to my LBS. They pointed out what michael Dart mentioned about the
    adjustment screw for the reach which for some stupid reason I could manage to see. I didn't see that
    it had a very small allen wrench fitting in it, and thought it was just a protruding piece that was
    part of the lever. Well, anyway, now I know. Because the lever is perfectly fine now. To think that
    I spent at least 2-3 hours total bleeding the system over and over, and it was such a simple thing.
    Well, you know, I'll never make that mistake again. Thanks for the feedback though, and Slacker, I
    did notice that my sleeve is even with the compression nut. I didn't have a torque wrench available,
    so I just tightened it too much I suppose. Should I loosen it slightly? What problems can this
    cause? Anyway, I suppose that I should invest in a torque wrench even though I just had a LBS talk
    me out of it. Thanks again guys, this is one of those bike projects that took far more time than it
    needed to, but yet is invaluable for learning how to do future brake work and installations.

    Alan
     
  6. Slacker

    Slacker Guest

    > Thanks for the feedback guys. Well, I bled the system one more time, and then when there was no
    > change I just gave up and took it to my LBS. They pointed out what michael Dart mentioned about
    > the adjustment screw for the reach which for some stupid reason I could manage to see. I didn't
    > see that it had a very small allen wrench fitting in it, and thought it was just a protruding
    > piece that was part of the lever. Well, anyway, now I know. Because the lever is perfectly fine
    > now. To think that I spent at least 2-3 hours total bleeding the system over and over, and it was
    > such a simple thing. Well, you know, I'll never make that mistake again. Thanks for the feedback
    > though, and Slacker, I did notice that my sleeve is even with the compression nut. I didn't have a
    > torque wrench available, so I just tightened it too much I suppose. Should I loosen it slightly?
    > What problems can this cause? Anyway, I suppose that I should invest in a torque wrench even
    > though I just had a LBS talk me out of it. Thanks again guys, this is one of those bike projects
    > that took far more time than it needed to, but yet is invaluable for learning how to do future
    > brake work and installations.
    >
    > Alan

    Whatever you do, DO NOT loosen the compression nut....just leave it as is. It may not even pose a
    problem, it's just something that could, but if it aint broke then don't sweat it.

    I think we've all make similar mistakes. Nothing like first hand experience learning.
    --
    Slacker
     
  7. Michael Dart

    Michael Dart Guest

    "Slacker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Thanks for the feedback guys. Well, I bled the system one more time, and then when there was no
    > > change I just gave up and took it to my LBS. They pointed out what michael Dart mentioned about
    > > the adjustment screw for the reach which for some stupid reason I could manage to see. I didn't
    > > see that it had a very small allen wrench fitting in it, and thought it was just a protruding
    > > piece that was part of the lever. Well, anyway, now I know. Because the lever is perfectly fine
    > > now. To think that I spent at least 2-3 hours total bleeding the system over and over, and it
    > > was such a simple thing. Well, you know, I'll never make that mistake again. Thanks for the
    > > feedback though, and Slacker, I did notice that my sleeve is even with the compression nut. I
    > > didn't have a torque wrench available, so I just tightened it too much I suppose. Should I
    > > loosen it slightly? What problems can this cause? Anyway, I suppose that I should invest in a
    > > torque wrench even though I just had a LBS talk me out of it. Thanks again guys, this is one of
    > > those bike projects that took far more time than it needed to, but yet is invaluable for
    > > learning how to do future brake work and installations.
    > >
    > > Alan
    >
    > Whatever you do, DO NOT loosen the compression nut....just leave it as is.
    It may not even pose a problem, it's just something that
    > could, but if it aint broke then don't sweat it.
    >
    > I think we've all make similar mistakes. Nothing like first hand
    experience learning.
    > --
    > Slacker
    >
    >

    A Hayes tech told me that lacking a torque wrench (and crows foot) that the nut should be tightened
    until the compression sleeve just shows out from under the nut. You heard something different?

    Mike
     
  8. Technician

    Technician Guest

    Slacker <[email protected]> spoke thusly...
    > > Thanks for the feedback guys. Well, I bled the system one more time, and then when there was no
    > > change I just gave up and took it to my LBS. They pointed out what michael Dart mentioned about
    > > the adjustment screw for the reach which for some stupid reason I could manage to see. I didn't
    > > see that it had a very small allen wrench fitting in it, and thought it was just a protruding
    > > piece that was part of the lever. Well, anyway, now I know. Because the lever is perfectly fine
    > > now. To think that I spent at least 2-3 hours total bleeding the system over and over, and it
    > > was such a simple thing. Well, you know, I'll never make that mistake again. Thanks for the
    > > feedback though, and Slacker, I did notice that my sleeve is even with the compression nut. I
    > > didn't have a torque wrench available, so I just tightened it too much I suppose. Should I
    > > loosen it slightly? What problems can this cause? Anyway, I suppose that I should invest in a
    > > torque wrench even though I just had a LBS talk me out of it. Thanks again guys, this is one of
    > > those bike projects that took far more time than it needed to, but yet is invaluable for
    > > learning how to do future brake work and installations.
    > >
    > > Alan
    >
    > Whatever you do, DO NOT loosen the compression nut....just leave it as is. It may not even pose a
    > problem, it's just something that could, but if it aint broke then don't sweat it.
    >
    > I think we've all make similar mistakes. Nothing like first hand experience learning.
    > --
    > Slacker
    >
    >
    >

    Never fails to annoy me when folks say not to do something without the justification for it. what
    does <something> do, and why do you not want to do it. i for one, and i assume several others, learn
    best by being told why to do or not do something, rather than simply do, or do not do
    it.
    --
    ~Travis

    http://www.megalink.net/~farmers/
     
  9. Slacker

    Slacker Guest

    > > > Thanks for the feedback guys. Well, I bled the system one more time, and then when there was
    > > > no change I just gave up and took it to my LBS. They pointed out what michael Dart mentioned
    > > > about the adjustment screw for the reach which for some stupid reason I could manage to see. I
    > > > didn't see that it had a very small allen wrench fitting in it, and thought it was just a
    > > > protruding piece that was part of the lever. Well, anyway, now I know. Because the lever is
    > > > perfectly fine now. To think that I spent at least 2-3 hours total bleeding the system over
    > > > and over, and it was such a simple thing. Well, you know, I'll never make that mistake again.
    > > > Thanks for the feedback though, and Slacker, I did notice that my sleeve is even with the
    > > > compression nut. I didn't have a torque wrench available, so I just tightened it too much I
    > > > suppose. Should I loosen it slightly? What problems can this cause? Anyway, I suppose that I
    > > > should invest in a torque wrench even though I just had a LBS talk me out of it. Thanks again
    > > > guys, this is one of those bike projects that took far more time than it needed to, but yet is
    > > > invaluable for learning how to do future brake work and installations.
    > > >
    > > > Alan
    > >
    > > Whatever you do, DO NOT loosen the compression nut....just leave it as is.
    > It may not even pose a problem, it's just something that
    > > could, but if it aint broke then don't sweat it.
    > >
    > > I think we've all make similar mistakes. Nothing like first hand
    > experience learning.
    > > --
    > > Slacker
    > >
    > >
    >
    > A Hayes tech told me that lacking a torque wrench (and crows foot) that the nut should be
    > tightened until the compression sleeve just shows out from under the nut. You heard something
    > different?
    >
    > Mike

    Oops....nevermind ;^ )

    Actually, I now do mine just before it's flush with the nut, but I'm sure there's a fairly wide safe
    range. This is mainly due to that super thin inlet tube we've both snapped off, it's just a little
    easier to yank off the hose if need be.

    Didn't mean to scare the OP.
    --
    Slacker - everyone back into your homes, especially Technician
     
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