Hayes Hydraulics: Adjustments

[Hkek]

I've got about 150 trail miles on my Heckler now and I need to make
some brake adjustments. When the bike newly delivered, I noticed that
one of the brake levers needed to be pulled in further than the other
to get about the same degree of pressure on the brake disc. At the
time I wondered: does one side of the brake system need more fluid?

Now that I have some miles on this setup, I notice that the levers are coming in much further, to
the point where I can pinch my fingers between the levers and the grips during braking. Is this an
indication that I need more brake fluid?

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Michael Dart]

In news:[email protected],
HKEK <[email protected]> typed:
> I've got about 150 trail miles on my Heckler now and I need to make some brake adjustments. When
> the bike newly delivered, I noticed that one of the brake levers needed to be pulled in further
> than the other to get about the same degree of pressure on the brake disc. At the time I wondered:
> does one side of the brake system need more fluid?
>
> Now that I have some miles on this setup, I notice that the levers are coming in much further, to
> the point where I can pinch my fingers between the levers and the grips during braking. Is this an
> indication that I need more brake fluid?
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.

There's a lever reach adjustment. Look inside the lever at the black round insert. There's a 2-3mm
hex key (a long key works best here) adjuster in there on the end of the master cylinder piston
shaft. Screwing it in (CW) increases the reach on the lever. Your pads are wearing in a bit and more
fluid has gone into the caliper. When you change the pads you will have to readjust the levers to
get them back where you like 'em. This adjustment will also change if it is very cold out as the
fluid will contract.

Mike

 

[S. Anderson]

"Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> There's a lever reach adjustment. Look inside the lever at the black
round
> insert. There's a 2-3mm hex key (a long key works best here) adjuster in there on the end of the
> master cylinder piston shaft. Screwing it in (CW) increases the reach on the lever. Your pads are
> wearing in a bit and more fluid has gone into the caliper. When you change the pads you will have
to
> readjust the levers to get them back where you like 'em. This adjustment will also change if it is
> very cold out as the fluid will contract.

Is there a reservoir in this system? Shouldn't the lever position stay the same unless air enters
the system?

Cheers,

Scott..

 

[Michael Dart]

"S. Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > There's a lever reach adjustment. Look inside the lever at the black
> round
> > insert. There's a 2-3mm hex key (a long key works best here) adjuster
in
> > there on the end of the master cylinder piston shaft. Screwing it in
(CW)
> > increases the reach on the lever. Your pads are wearing in a bit and
more
> > fluid has gone into the caliper. When you change the pads you will have
> to
> > readjust the levers to get them back where you like 'em. This
adjustment
> > will also change if it is very cold out as the fluid will contract.
>
> Is there a reservoir in this system? Shouldn't the lever position stay
the
> same unless air enters the system?
>

Yes, but it doesn't seem to work that way in my experience with them..

Mike

 

[Hkek]

Maybe the cold temperatures are part of the problem. I live in New England and have been riding at
tempertures from the high 20's down to 10°F.

"Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In news:[email protected], HKEK <[email protected]> typed:
> > I've got about 150 trail miles on my Heckler now and I need to make some brake adjustments. When
> > the bike newly delivered, I noticed that one of the brake levers needed to be pulled in further
> > than the other to get about the same degree of pressure on the brake disc. At the time I
> > wondered: does one side of the brake system need more fluid?
> >
> > Now that I have some miles on this setup, I notice that the levers are coming in much further,
> > to the point where I can pinch my fingers between the levers and the grips during braking. Is
> > this an indication that I need more brake fluid?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your help.
>
> There's a lever reach adjustment. Look inside the lever at the black round insert. There's a 2-3mm
> hex key (a long key works best here) adjuster in there on the end of the master cylinder piston
> shaft. Screwing it in (CW) increases the reach on the lever. Your pads are wearing in a bit and
> more fluid has gone into the caliper. When you change the pads you will have to readjust the
> levers to get them back where you like 'em. This adjustment will also change if it is very cold
> out as the fluid will contract.
>
> Mike

 

[Hkek]

I don't know if there is a reservoir in the traditional sense. There are no obvious tanks or
accumulators bulging from the levers as found on motorcycles.

"S. Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > There's a lever reach adjustment. Look inside the lever at the black
> round
> > insert. There's a 2-3mm hex key (a long key works best here) adjuster in there on the end of
> > the master cylinder piston shaft. Screwing it in (CW) increases the reach on the lever. Your
> > pads are wearing in a bit and more fluid has gone into the caliper. When you change the pads
> > you will have
> to
> > readjust the levers to get them back where you like 'em. This adjustment will also change if it
> > is very cold out as the fluid will contract.
>
> Is there a reservoir in this system? Shouldn't the lever position stay the same unless air enters
> the system?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Scott..

 

[G.T.]

"Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "S. Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > There's a lever reach adjustment. Look inside the lever at the black
> > round
> > > insert. There's a 2-3mm hex key (a long key works best here) adjuster
> in
> > > there on the end of the master cylinder piston shaft. Screwing it in
> (CW)
> > > increases the reach on the lever. Your pads are wearing in a bit and
> more
> > > fluid has gone into the caliper. When you change the pads you will
have
> > to
> > > readjust the levers to get them back where you like 'em. This
> adjustment
> > > will also change if it is very cold out as the fluid will contract.
> >
> > Is there a reservoir in this system? Shouldn't the lever position stay
> the
> > same unless air enters the system?
> >
>
> Yes, but it doesn't seem to work that way in my experience with them..
>
> Mike
>

Glad I got Avids.

Greg

 

[Chls Berry]

HKEK wrote:

> Maybe the cold temperatures are part of the problem. I live in New England and have been riding at
> tempertures from the high 20's down to 10°F.
>
> "Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > In news:[email protected], HKEK <[email protected]> typed:
> > > I've got about 150 trail miles on my Heckler now and I need to make some brake adjustments.
> > > When the bike newly delivered, I noticed that one of the brake levers needed to be pulled in
> > > further than the other to get about the same degree of pressure on the brake disc. At the time
> > > I wondered: does one side of the brake system need more fluid?
> > >
> > > Now that I have some miles on this setup, I notice that the levers are coming in much further,
> > > to the point where I can pinch my fingers between the levers and the grips during braking. Is
> > > this an indication that I need more brake fluid?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for your help.
> >
> > There's a lever reach adjustment. Look inside the lever at the black round insert. There's a 2-
> > 3mm hex key (a long key works best here) adjuster in there on the end of the master cylinder
> > piston shaft. Screwing it in (CW) increases the reach on the lever. Your pads are wearing in a
> > bit and more fluid has gone into the caliper. When you change the pads you will have to readjust
> > the levers to get them back where you like 'em. This adjustment will also change if it is very
> > cold out as the fluid will contract.
> >
> > Mike

micheal dart's postings are good IMHO. pad wear, piston seating when new will change lever travel.
fluid resivor is the caliper itself. temp will make a difference, but not enough that "I" would
notice. charls

 

[Doug Huffman]

Hayes has a fine web site and manual that comes with their brakes. This thread is soo full of
Barbara Streisand that it is worthless as 'help' for a user.

I have 30,000 miles and more on Hayes Hydraulics with no problems. The thermal expansion (or
contraction for the ignorant) of the fluid is insignificant. Change in master cylinder volume with
pad weqar is not detectable.

 

[Hkek]

So do you agree that it is really only a reach adjustment that is needed?

"Doug Huffman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<4a-
[email protected]>...
> Hayes has a fine web site and manual that comes with their brakes. This thread is soo full of
> Barbara Streisand that it is worthless as 'help' for a user.
>
> I have 30,000 miles and more on Hayes Hydraulics with no problems. The thermal expansion (or
> contraction for the ignorant) of the fluid is insignificant. Change in master cylinder volume with
> pad weqar is not detectable.

 

[S. Anderson]

"HKEK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So do you agree that it is really only a reach adjustment that is needed?

In a hydraulic system, the only way that the lever can begin to approach the handlebar is
compression of either the fluid (via air bubbles in the fluid) or the system. The only flexible
thing in the system is usually the hoses. I doubt you could feel this. The system is open behind the
master cylinder to the reservoir that constantly maintains fluid in the system. It's possible you
ran out of fluid, or through some other leak, and introduced air into the system. You'd normally
feel this as a spongey lever with too much travel, especially when you begin to put real pressure on
the lever. If you have no air in your fluid (I suggest bleeding the brakes here..) then the only way
you can get more lever clearance is by adjusting the lever reach. This system is in place in every
car and motorcycle in the world. It's bulletproof.

Cheers,

Scott..

 

[Hkek]

There's no sponginess. There are no leaks. I think things may have set in. I'll set the reach now
and go on from there. I love disc brakes! thanks.

"S. Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "HKEK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > So do you agree that it is really only a reach adjustment that is needed?
>
> In a hydraulic system, the only way that the lever can begin to approach the handlebar is
> compression of either the fluid (via air bubbles in the fluid) or the system. The only flexible
> thing in the system is usually the hoses. I doubt you could feel this. The system is open behind
> the master cylinder to the reservoir that constantly maintains fluid in the system. It's possible
> you ran out of fluid, or through some other leak, and introduced air into the system. You'd
> normally feel this as a spongey lever with too much travel, especially when you begin to put real
> pressure on the lever. If you have no air in your fluid (I suggest bleeding the brakes here..)
> then the only way you can get more lever clearance is by adjusting the lever reach. This system is
> in place in every car and motorcycle in the world. It's bulletproof.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Scott..

 

[Stu]

> micheal dart's postings are good IMHO. pad wear, piston seating when new
will change lever travel. fluid
> resivor is the caliper itself. temp will make a difference, but not enough
that "I" would notice. charls
>
How does the caliper act as a reservoir?? i.e.how does something "in the system" act as a reservoir
for the system?

 

[S. Anderson]

"stu" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How does the caliper act as a reservoir?? i.e.how does something "in the system" act as a
> reservoir for the system?

I think he's mistaken. The reservoir, it would seem, is part of the lever and perhaps that's what he
meant. I suspect there is very little volume loss through wear and there is a small reservoir built-
in to the lever body. No part of the system that is under pressure when the lever is pulled can be
part of the reservoir.

Cheers,

Scott..

 

[Hkek]

The reach adjustment was simple and worked great, except...

I think I have run out of stroke on the front brake. I made the reach adjustment and now I get some
braking but I cannot lock up the front brake. It seems as though I have squeezed all the fluid out
of the lever and the piston in the lever is bottoming out. I think I need to add more fluid.

Maybe they didn't put enough in when they built the bike, although there must be a procedure to get
the right amount of fluid. I would imagine that one could put too much fluid in too, such that there
would be a problem when new brake pads (and/or rotors) are installed.

Does this sound like a low fluid issue to you? I definitely need more front brake! Thanks!

"Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In news:[email protected], HKEK <[email protected]> typed:
> > I've got about 150 trail miles on my Heckler now and I need to make some brake adjustments. When
> > the bike newly delivered, I noticed that one of the brake levers needed to be pulled in further
> > than the other to get about the same degree of pressure on the brake disc. At the time I
> > wondered: does one side of the brake system need more fluid?
> >
> > Now that I have some miles on this setup, I notice that the levers are coming in much further,
> > to the point where I can pinch my fingers between the levers and the grips during braking. Is
> > this an indication that I need more brake fluid?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your help.
>
> There's a lever reach adjustment. Look inside the lever at the black round insert. There's a 2-3mm
> hex key (a long key works best here) adjuster in there on the end of the master cylinder piston
> shaft. Screwing it in (CW) increases the reach on the lever. Your pads are wearing in a bit and
> more fluid has gone into the caliper. When you change the pads you will have to readjust the
> levers to get them back where you like 'em. This adjustment will also change if it is very cold
> out as the fluid will contract.
>
> Mike

 

[Stu]

Sounds like low fluid to me, from not being bled right (but what would I know about "bike" disk
brakes) only 150miles? wouldnt you get a free service? http://www.hayesdiscbrake.com/tech.cfm http://www.hayesdiscbrake.com/pdf/45-
14550BEnglishForWeb.pdf looks like a PITA to bleed and you need special tools(you maybe able to
make them). If you decide to do it yourself just remember when its time to change pads. That "if"
you have worn the pads down much in 150miles and now bleed it with the old pads in, you may have
trouble getting the pistons back far enough to get the new pads in. You would then have to open a
bleeder and let some fluid out. I'd try and get the guys that built the bike to fix it and ask if
you can watch. stu If only someone would come up with a way that we could do without all this
complex stuff.

 

[Hkek]

I'm pretty sure the bike shop would perform the service without charge. This bike was a $2500
purchase. I have bought $200 bikes where the shop wanted the bike back for a complimentary tune-up
after a period of "break in" time. Trouble is, 1) this particular bike shop is a long drive for me,
and 2) I'll need the bleed kit for future service anyway.

"stu" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Sounds like low fluid to me, from not being bled right (but what would I know about "bike" disk
> brakes) only 150miles? wouldnt you get a free service? http://www.hayesdiscbrake.com/tech.cfm http://www.hayesdiscbrake.com/pdf/45-
> 14550BEnglishForWeb.pdf looks like a PITA to bleed and you need special tools(you maybe able to
> make them). If you decide to do it yourself just remember when its time to change pads. That "if"
> you have worn the pads down much in 150miles and now bleed it with the old pads in, you may have
> trouble getting the pistons back far enough to get the new pads in. You would then have to open a
> bleeder and let some fluid out. I'd try and get the guys that built the bike to fix it and ask if
> you can watch. stu If only someone would come up with a way that we could do without all this
> complex stuff.

 

[Hkek]

The mechanic at my LBS tells me that there is a bladder in each lever that acts as the reservoir in
each system. Being a bladder allows the levers to be used in any position (and the bike as well!)
left, right, flipped-over, inverted...

[email protected] (HKEK) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> I don't know if there is a reservoir in the traditional sense. There are no obvious tanks or
> accumulators bulging from the levers as found on motorcycles.
>
> "S. Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > There's a lever reach adjustment. Look inside the lever at the black
> round
> > > insert. There's a 2-3mm hex key (a long key works best here) adjuster in there on the end of
> > > the master cylinder piston shaft. Screwing it in (CW) increases the reach on the lever. Your
> > > pads are wearing in a bit and more fluid has gone into the caliper. When you change the pads
> > > you will have
> to
> > > readjust the levers to get them back where you like 'em. This adjustment will also change if
> > > it is very cold out as the fluid will contract.
> >
> > Is there a reservoir in this system? Shouldn't the lever position stay the same unless air
> > enters the system?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Scott..