Headset dead spot?

[Williams]

[Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
for that?]

It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
adjustment called for?

This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.

thanks,
Craig

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:59:23 GMT, "Williams" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
>the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
>for that?]
>
>It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
>wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
>adjustment called for?
>
>This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
>thanks,
>Craig

Dear Craig,

Most likely, your headset bearing races are pitted, with pits spaced
one ball apart.

It's a familiar problem known as indexed steering--the handlebar will
turn in small steps, as if indexed like a shift lever. It's exactly as
if there are the little detents that you describe because that's what
they are.

The fix is new bearings and races.

Here's an artificially dented headset:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:59:23 GMT, "Williams" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
>the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
>for that?]
>
>It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
>wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
>adjustment called for?
>
>This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
>thanks,
>Craig

Dear Craig,

Google Advanced Groups search seems to work.

Go here:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?q=&

Put in "indexed" for the text and rec.bicycles.tech for the group:

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_...981&as_maxd=2&as_maxm=4&as_maxy=2008&safe=off

Possibly you tried when Google was down briefly?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[daveornee]

[Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
for that?]

It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
adjustment called for?

This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.

thanks,
Craig

10 co year waranty on Chris King headsets. If it it younger than 10 years For the an immediate answer, you may give customer and/or technical service folks a call during normal business hours (8-5 on the west coast.) at 800.523.6008 or 503.972.4050

 

[[email protected]]

Craig Williams wrote:

> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
> there another tool for that?]

> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?

> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html

I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
favorites.

Jobst Brandt

 

[RicodJour]

On Apr 2, 7:01 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> Craig Williams wrote:
> > [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
> > messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
> > there another tool for that?]
> > It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
> > the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
> > detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
> > This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>
> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
> favorites.

Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited - OP
in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer to -
the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive load or
ambient conditions.

To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other 'resting
spots' as you rotate the handlebars?

R

 

[[email protected]]

someone wrote:

>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works.
>>> Is there another tool for that?]

>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for? This is a Chris
>>> King threaded headset on a road bike.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html

>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to
>> your favorites.

> Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
> itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited -
> OP in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer
> to - the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive
> load or ambient conditions.

Brinell is a forceful indentation of a ball into a surface and it
leaves a shiny dimple the shape of the ball. Head bearing races are
eroded by fretting and have dimples that are neither shiny nor
spherical. They are causes by the balls rolling across their design
path in tiny excursions.

> To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other
> 'resting spots' as you rotate the handlebars?

They occur at regular intervals, one ball space apart, but the
straight ahead one is largest because that is the position in which
this damage occurs.

The bearing balls in the front and rear of the head bearing leave
fretting impressions and I think the article explains that adequately.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Rex Kerr]

[email protected] wrote:
> The fix is new bearings and races.

A temporary fix that I have used (but absolutely do not recommend, so if
it falls apart and you crash it's not my fault!) is to replace the
bottom sets of bearings with a the next size up/down, whatever fits.
The headset will feel much smoother after that since the weight rests on
that set and it no longer falls into to detents.

--
Work and recreation are not often effected at the same time.
One using a bicycle in business makes an exception to the rule.
- Dr. Edgar H. Earl, Rochester. (~1892)

 

[Williams]

I appreciate the quick replies. There is only one dead spot at dead center.

Craig


"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:cffe89ec-a686-4d76-adda-04636dfcba10@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 2, 7:01 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> Craig Williams wrote:
>> > [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>> > messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
>> > there another tool for that?]
>> > It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>> > the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>> > detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
>> > This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>>
>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>>
>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
>> favorites.
>
> Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
> itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited - OP
> in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer to -
> the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive load or
> ambient conditions.
>
> To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other 'resting
> spots' as you rotate the handlebars?
>
> R

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:40:41 GMT, "Williams" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I appreciate the quick replies. There is only one dead spot at dead center.
>
>Craig

Dear Craig,

Indexing is still the most likely cause, but maybe you have something
out of the ordinary.

If you do end up replacing the headset, pictures of the races would
probably interest the usual suspects in the indexed-steering threads.

If pictures are too much fuss, you can email me and I'll be glad to
pay the postage and put up some pictures.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:59:23 GMT, "Williams" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >[Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
> >the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
> >for that?]
> >
> >It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
> >wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
> >adjustment called for?
> >
> >This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
> >
> >thanks,
> >Craig
>
> Dear Craig,
>
> Most likely, your headset bearing races are pitted, with pits spaced
> one ball apart.
>
> It's a familiar problem known as indexed steering--the handlebar will
> turn in small steps, as if indexed like a shift lever. It's exactly as
> if there are the little detents that you describe because that's what
> they are.
>
> The fix is new bearings and races.
>
> Here's an artificially dented headset:
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell.jpg

Dear Carl:

fine photo of wanton bike-part destruction (sure, sure, in the name of
science...) but my curiosity is piqued by the rather curious artifact in
the top left of the photo.

No, not the dime. Further left.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

 

[Teh bike guy]

This is common and easy to fix, just squirt some toothpaste (whitening
formulations work best) into the headset and ride around for a few miles,
it will become all smooth again, after that you can flush with water and
add grease.


On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:59:23 GMT, Williams wrote:

> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
> the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
> for that?]
>
> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
> adjustment called for?
>
> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> thanks,
> Craig

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:19:20 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]>
wrote:

>> Here's an artificially dented headset:
>> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell.jpg
>
>Dear Carl:
>
>fine photo of wanton bike-part destruction (sure, sure, in the name of
>science...) but my curiosity is piqued by the rather curious artifact in
>the top left of the photo.
>
>No, not the dime. Further left.

Dear Ryan,

Hmmm . . .

http://i31.tinypic.com/e9yzhi.jpg

It could be a modern version of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Holbein-ambassadors.jpg

Put one eye at the lower left edge of your screen and the anamorphic
blob turns into a skull:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Skull-Ambassadors.jpg

But it's more likely just an icon (a sort of red-faced Mr. Potato Head
with a yellow cap?) introduced by some shareware used to trim photos
made with the original $12.95 USB camera that led Fogel Labs down the
well-paved path to its present location.

It appears in several other priceless early works:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell2.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell2setup.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/C1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/C3.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[jim beam]

Williams wrote:
> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
> the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
> for that?]
>
> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
> adjustment called for?
>
> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> thanks,
> Craig
>
>

probably the product of over-zealous fitting by the installer and
subsequent brinelling damage. c.k. headsets require a custom attachment
for the bearing press, and not everyone bothers to use one.

 

[jim beam]

[email protected] wrote:
> Craig Williams wrote:
>
>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
>> there another tool for that?]
>
>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
>
>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>
> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
> favorites.

not only is the premise of that article incorrect, it contains other
significant inaccuracies. rotating bearings /do/ indeed have metallic
contact up until the point of hydrodynamic separation.

http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e12_3.htm

separation only occurs at significant speed. at higher loads, it may
never occur. for you to contend that headset bearings are somehow
different from all the other bearings on a bike for which hydrodynamic
separation also does /not/ occur, is both ignorant and misleading.

furthermore, another poster to this group actually bothered to do
hardness testing of some headset bearings and found that low hardness
bearing races indexed quickly, while those with harder races didn't.
this is entirely in accordance with indexing being the product of
overload, [true brinelling] not "fretting" [false brinelling].

 

[jim beam]

[email protected] wrote:
> someone wrote:
>
>>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works.
>>>> Is there another tool for that?]
>
>>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>>>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>>>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for? This is a Chris
>>>> King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>
>>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to
>>> your favorites.
>
>> Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
>> itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited -
>> OP in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer
>> to - the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive
>> load or ambient conditions.
>
> Brinell is a forceful indentation of a ball into a surface and it
> leaves a shiny dimple the shape of the ball. Head bearing races are
> eroded by fretting and have dimples that are neither shiny nor
> spherical. They are causes by the balls rolling across their design
> path in tiny excursions.

so how do /you/ know which is which? did the o.p. sent you the headset
and you've had a chance to examine it? since in reality you have NOT
actually made these inspections, you're simply presenting underinformed
presumption as fact.


>
>> To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other
>> 'resting spots' as you rotate the handlebars?
>
> They occur at regular intervals, one ball space apart, but the
> straight ahead one is largest because that is the position in which
> this damage occurs.
>
> The bearing balls in the front and rear of the head bearing leave
> fretting impressions and I think the article explains that adequately.

no it doesn't [you don't] because it [you] fails to recognize true
brinelling - something easily caused by overload.

 

[RicodJour]

On Apr 2, 7:48 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> someone wrote:
> >>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
> >>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works.
> >>> Is there another tool for that?]
> >>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
> >>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
> >>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for? This is a Chris
> >>> King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>
> >> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to
> >> your favorites.
>
> > Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
> > itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited -
> > OP in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer
> > to - the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive
> > load or ambient conditions.
>
> Brinell is a forceful indentation of a ball into a surface and it
> leaves a shiny dimple the shape of the ball. Head bearing races are
> eroded by fretting and have dimples that are neither shiny nor
> spherical. They are causes by the balls rolling across their design
> path in tiny excursions.

Brinell is a hardness test and leaves indentation as you mention.
Brinelling is the result of overloaded bearings and may or may not
leave identical impressions. Brinelling, whether 'true' or 'false',
of actual bearings in use does not happen in a single test at 3000 kg,
hence the markings will vary. The word migrated due to the similarity
in bearing race damage. As an example, if someone called you a
horse's ass, that does not mean you are an actual horse's ass, they
are just commenting on the similarity.

> > To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other
> > 'resting spots' as you rotate the handlebars?
>
> They occur at regular intervals, one ball space apart, but the
> straight ahead one is largest because that is the position in which
> this damage occurs.
>
> The bearing balls in the front and rear of the head bearing leave
> fretting impressions and I think the article explains that adequately.

I am surprised that you were unable to decipher 'To the OP:'
correctly. It seemed straightforward when I wrote it...

R

 

[Werehatrack]

On 02 Apr 2008 23:48:10 GMT, [email protected] may have
said:

>They occur at regular intervals, one ball space apart, but the
>straight ahead one is largest because that is the position in which
>this damage occurs.
>
>The bearing balls in the front and rear of the head bearing leave
>fretting impressions and I think the article explains that adequately.

I managed to return one such indexed headset to service (at least for
a while; it's now been a bit over 6 months) by the simple expedient of
replacing the caged balls with loose ones, and rotating the upper cup
90 degrees. Enough balls then bore on unworn spots to make the
assembly work fairly well; I don't know how long it will last, but for
a quick fix on a weekend when a replacement would have been hard to
come by, it served well.

If the original setup used loose balls, this probably wouldn't be as
effective since the cone might still line up in the disadvantageous
spot.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:19:20 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >> Here's an artificially dented headset:
> >> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell.jpg
> >
> >Dear Carl:
> >
> >fine photo of wanton bike-part destruction (sure, sure, in the name of
> >science...) but my curiosity is piqued by the rather curious artifact in
> >the top left of the photo.
> >
> >No, not the dime. Further left.
>
> Dear Ryan,
>
> Hmmm . . .
>
> http://i31.tinypic.com/e9yzhi.jpg
>
> It could be a modern version of this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Holbein-ambassadors.jpg
>
> Put one eye at the lower left edge of your screen and the anamorphic
> blob turns into a skull:
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Skull-Ambassadors.jpg
>
> But it's more likely just an icon (a sort of red-faced Mr. Potato Head
> with a yellow cap?) introduced by some shareware used to trim photos
> made with the original $12.95 USB camera that led Fogel Labs down the
> well-paved path to its present location.
>
> It appears in several other priceless early works:
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell2.jpg

&c.

Well, that explanation was surprising, the creature is still confusing
(surprised they didn't at least use something that advertised their
software), and I learned about Holbein's remarkable painting.

Another good evening for Usenet.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

 

[Ben C]

On 2008-04-03, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> Williams wrote:
>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
>> the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
>> for that?]
>>
>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
>> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
>> adjustment called for?
>>
>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Craig
>>
>>
>
> probably the product of over-zealous fitting by the installer and
> subsequent brinelling damage. c.k. headsets require a custom attachment
> for the bearing press, and not everyone bothers to use one.

Do you mean they got brinelled as they were hammered into the frame?

That's one I've not heard. I thought in the usual "true brinelling"
version of events, the brinelling happens when you ride over a nasty
bump with the front wheel?