headset facing to reduce stack height?

[dookie]

long and detail-oriented, sorry. i think it's all relevant...

my situation: i recently put a modern fork on my pre-suspension paramount
OS mtb frame. it totally jacked the geometry, which i knew it would (85mm
reba is >2" longer the OEM unicrown)...but i didn't realize how badly the
handling would be affected. can you say 'laid back'? the frame has some
substantial internal rust at the BB as well, so naturally, i rationalized
the purchase of a new XC frame and will put the paramount out to pasture as
a rigid SS commuter. the new frame is a kona king kahuna (ti), and has a
slightly longer headtube (+5/16 / 8mm).

the real problem: the monkeys at the local performace shop (the brand, not
the adjective) 'installed' the reba for me. the steerer is not cut square,
and is nearly 3/8" below the top of the stem as-is! is this unsafe?

the headset is already low-stack (cane creek...~27mm), but luckily the
current stem has a fairly tall clamp (50mm). if my math is correct, a 40mm
clamp stem (there are many) should buy me a couple mm, but the steerer will
still be well below the top of the stem.

is it reasonable (and worth it...it's not really in my nature) to raise hell
at performance and try to get either the stem or another crown/steerer?
irregardless of the new frame, the work they did is shoddy at best.

as an alternative, i understand it is possible to shorten a headtube by a
few mm (in times of desperation) by using a facing tool to remove material
from the top of the tube. how about from a ti frame? is this reasonable or
a hack solution? no, performance will not be doing the work!

thanks much!

 

[dookie]

er..head*tube* facing...

"dookie" <dookie@~obvious~dooksucks.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> long and detail-oriented, sorry. i think it's all relevant...
>
> my situation: i recently put a modern fork on my pre-suspension paramount
> OS mtb frame. it totally jacked the geometry, which i knew it would (85mm
> reba is >2" longer the OEM unicrown)...but i didn't realize how badly the
> handling would be affected. can you say 'laid back'? the frame has some
> substantial internal rust at the BB as well, so naturally, i rationalized
> the purchase of a new XC frame and will put the paramount out to pasture
> as a rigid SS commuter. the new frame is a kona king kahuna (ti), and has
> a slightly longer headtube (+5/16 / 8mm).
>
> the real problem: the monkeys at the local performace shop (the brand,
> not the adjective) 'installed' the reba for me. the steerer is not cut
> square, and is nearly 3/8" below the top of the stem as-is! is this
> unsafe?
>
> the headset is already low-stack (cane creek...~27mm), but luckily the
> current stem has a fairly tall clamp (50mm). if my math is correct, a
> 40mm clamp stem (there are many) should buy me a couple mm, but the
> steerer will still be well below the top of the stem.
>
> is it reasonable (and worth it...it's not really in my nature) to raise
> hell at performance and try to get either the stem or another
> crown/steerer? irregardless of the new frame, the work they did is shoddy
> at best.
>
> as an alternative, i understand it is possible to shorten a headtube by a
> few mm (in times of desperation) by using a facing tool to remove material
> from the top of the tube. how about from a ti frame? is this reasonable
> or a hack solution? no, performance will not be doing the work!
>
> thanks much!
>

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
"dookie" <dookie@~obvious~dooksucks.com> wrote:

> the real problem: the monkeys at the local performace shop (the brand, not
> the adjective) 'installed' the reba for me. the steerer is not cut square,
> and is nearly 3/8" below the top of the stem as-is! is this unsafe?

I was just reading the installation instruction for Aheadset last night.
I note that the steerer tube was to be cut 3mm below the top of the
stem/spacer. I don't know why, but that's the reading the official
installation manual for Aheadset from Cane Creek. I am sure there are
people here who knows the technical reason for it.
--

 

[[email protected]]

Artoi wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "dookie" <dookie@~obvious~dooksucks.com> wrote:
>
> > the real problem: the monkeys at the local performace shop (the brand, not
> > the adjective) 'installed' the reba for me. the steerer is not cut square,
> > and is nearly 3/8" below the top of the stem as-is! is this unsafe?
>
> I was just reading the installation instruction for Aheadset last night.
> I note that the steerer tube was to be cut 3mm below the top of the
> stem/spacer. I don't know why, but that's the reading the official
> installation manual for Aheadset from Cane Creek. I am sure there are
> people here who knows the technical reason for it.
>

3/8" is more like 9-10mm.

 

[[email protected]]

i think you can get the clamping you need without messing with your
frame.

i) cane creek headsets use interlocking spacers and it's typical to
snap at least one on the the top cup (bearing cover actually), you can
remove this if it's there

ii) try the stem with a smaller clamp

iii) a few mm shorter is okay, you need it because preloading the
bearing pushes down on the headset a mm or so.

in fact depending on the design, facing your frame might not be a good
idea. some headtubes like my cannondale have a thicker wall section at
the center, so if you faced the headtube the cups may not install
properly.

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
"dookie" <dookie@~obvious~dooksucks.com> wrote:

> long and detail-oriented, sorry. i think it's all relevant...
>
> my situation: i recently put a modern fork on my pre-suspension paramount
> OS mtb frame. it totally jacked the geometry, which i knew it would (85mm
> reba is >2" longer the OEM unicrown)...but i didn't realize how badly the
> handling would be affected. can you say 'laid back'? the frame has some
> substantial internal rust at the BB as well, so naturally, i rationalized
> the purchase of a new XC frame and will put the paramount out to pasture as
> a rigid SS commuter. the new frame is a kona king kahuna (ti), and has a
> slightly longer headtube (+5/16 / 8mm).
>
> the real problem: the monkeys at the local performace shop (the brand, not
> the adjective) 'installed' the reba for me. the steerer is not cut square,
> and is nearly 3/8" below the top of the stem as-is! is this unsafe?
>
> the headset is already low-stack (cane creek...~27mm), but luckily the
> current stem has a fairly tall clamp (50mm). if my math is correct, a 40mm
> clamp stem (there are many) should buy me a couple mm, but the steerer will
> still be well below the top of the stem.
>
> is it reasonable (and worth it...it's not really in my nature) to raise hell
> at performance and try to get either the stem or another crown/steerer?
> irregardless of the new frame, the work they did is shoddy at best.
>
> as an alternative, i understand it is possible to shorten a headtube by a
> few mm (in times of desperation) by using a facing tool to remove material
> from the top of the tube. how about from a ti frame? is this reasonable or
> a hack solution? no, performance will not be doing the work!

According to your account they owe you a new fork.

--
Michael Press

 

[landotter]

dookie wrote:
> long and detail-oriented, sorry. i think it's all relevant...
>
> my situation: i recently put a modern fork on my pre-suspension paramount
> OS mtb frame. it totally jacked the geometry, which i knew it would (85mm
> reba is >2" longer the OEM unicrown)...but i didn't realize how badly the
> handling would be affected. can you say 'laid back'? the frame has some
> substantial internal rust at the BB as well, so naturally, i rationalized
> the purchase of a new XC frame and will put the paramount out to pasture as
> a rigid SS commuter. the new frame is a kona king kahuna (ti), and has a
> slightly longer headtube (+5/16 / 8mm).
>
> the real problem: the monkeys at the local performace shop (the brand, not
> the adjective) 'installed' the reba for me. the steerer is not cut square,
> and is nearly 3/8" below the top of the stem as-is! is this unsafe?

I don't know about unsafe, but it's unprofessional, and I'd ask for the
manager, a refund for the "work" done, and a new fork. I mean, there's
a little thing called a "tubing cutter" which make it rather difficult
for the even dimmest monkeys to screw up cutting a steerer. Likely the
little morons used a hacksaw. You took the fork to a commercial shop
for installation, not cousin Vinny's garage, twist their arm.

 

[[email protected]]

landotter wrote:

> I don't know about unsafe, but it's unprofessional, and I'd ask for the
> manager, a refund for the "work" done, and a new fork. I mean, there's
> a little thing called a "tubing cutter" which make it rather difficult
> for the even dimmest monkeys to screw up cutting a steerer.

if you mean a pipe cutter, that's not the way to cut the steerer, it
deforms the diameter. a hacksaw or bandsaw or some other bladed cutter
(like a cutting wheel?) is the only correct way i have heard of.

 

[Mark]

[email protected] wrote:
> landotter wrote:
>
>
>>I don't know about unsafe, but it's unprofessional, and I'd ask for the
>>manager, a refund for the "work" done, and a new fork. I mean, there's
>>a little thing called a "tubing cutter" which make it rather difficult
>>for the even dimmest monkeys to screw up cutting a steerer.
>
>
> if you mean a pipe cutter, that's not the way to cut the steerer, it
> deforms the diameter. a hacksaw or bandsaw or some other bladed cutter
> (like a cutting wheel?) is the only correct way i have heard of.

I think/hope he was referring to a cutting guide that goes over the
steerer and guides the hacksaw blade in a square cut. Agree that what I
think of as a "tubing cutter" is inappropriate, so I assume he didn't
mean that.

Mark J.

 

[landotter]

Mark wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > landotter wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I don't know about unsafe, but it's unprofessional, and I'd ask for the
> >>manager, a refund for the "work" done, and a new fork. I mean, there's
> >>a little thing called a "tubing cutter" which make it rather difficult
> >>for the even dimmest monkeys to screw up cutting a steerer.
> >
> >
> > if you mean a pipe cutter, that's not the way to cut the steerer, it
> > deforms the diameter. a hacksaw or bandsaw or some other bladed cutter
> > (like a cutting wheel?) is the only correct way i have heard of.
>
> I think/hope he was referring to a cutting guide that goes over the
> steerer and guides the hacksaw blade in a square cut. Agree that what I
> think of as a "tubing cutter" is inappropriate, so I assume he didn't
> mean that.

I did mean a regular old rotating tube cutter. Works great on steel w/o
any deformation, don't know about aluminum. You can also use it in
tandem with a hand saw to create a straight score to follow.

 

[landotter]

landotter wrote:
> Mark wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > landotter wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>I don't know about unsafe, but it's unprofessional, and I'd ask for the
> > >>manager, a refund for the "work" done, and a new fork. I mean, there's
> > >>a little thing called a "tubing cutter" which make it rather difficult
> > >>for the even dimmest monkeys to screw up cutting a steerer.
> > >
> > >
> > > if you mean a pipe cutter, that's not the way to cut the steerer, it
> > > deforms the diameter. a hacksaw or bandsaw or some other bladed cutter
> > > (like a cutting wheel?) is the only correct way i have heard of.
> >
> > I think/hope he was referring to a cutting guide that goes over the
> > steerer and guides the hacksaw blade in a square cut. Agree that what I
> > think of as a "tubing cutter" is inappropriate, so I assume he didn't
> > mean that.
>
> I did mean a regular old rotating tube cutter. Works great on steel w/o
> any deformation, don't know about aluminum. You can also use it in
> tandem with a hand saw to create a straight score to follow.

Do mind the tension screw when using a pipe cutter, as it certainly is
possible to make it a bit challenging to insert the star nut--but if
you take it easy--no problem.

 

[john]

landotter wrote:

-snip-

> > > > if you mean a pipe cutter, that's not the way to cut the steerer, it
> > > > deforms the diameter. a hacksaw or bandsaw or some other bladed cutter
> > > > (like a cutting wheel?) is the only correct way i have heard of.
> > >
> > > I think/hope he was referring to a cutting guide that goes over the
> > > steerer and guides the hacksaw blade in a square cut. Agree that what I
> > > think of as a "tubing cutter" is inappropriate, so I assume he didn't
> > > mean that.
> >
> > I did mean a regular old rotating tube cutter. Works great on steel w/o
> > any deformation, don't know about aluminum. You can also use it in
> > tandem with a hand saw to create a straight score to follow.
>
> Do mind the tension screw when using a pipe cutter, as it certainly is
> possible to make it a bit challenging to insert the star nut--but if
> you take it easy--no problem.

A tubing or pipe cutter works just fine w/ an aluminum steerer. You
should deburr the end of any tube you cut, regardless of weather it's
aluminum, steel, cooper, a steerer tube or not. Also if a hack saw is
used.

No big deal, John

 

[Mark Hickey]

[email protected] wrote:

>>Artoi wrote:
>> "dookie" <dookie@~obvious~dooksucks.com> wrote:
>>
>> > the real problem: the monkeys at the local performace shop (the brand, not
>> > the adjective) 'installed' the reba for me. the steerer is not cut square,
>> > and is nearly 3/8" below the top of the stem as-is! is this unsafe?
>>
>> I was just reading the installation instruction for Aheadset last night.
>> I note that the steerer tube was to be cut 3mm below the top of the
>> stem/spacer. I don't know why, but that's the reading the official
>> installation manual for Aheadset from Cane Creek. I am sure there are
>> people here who knows the technical reason for it.
>
>3/8" is more like 9-10mm.

3mm below the top of the stem allows room for the stem's cap to clear
the steer tube (if they touch, you can't adjust the headset preload).
3mm is just over 1/8", so it's not going to affect the stem's clamping
ability - but 3/8" IS an awful lot of space. Too much.

OTOH, if the stem on the bike now has a 50mm tall clamp, the easy
solution is to just swap it out for a stem with a 40mm clamp (about
average). The steer tube will actually have to be trimmed a bit to
make it work. Stems are cheap - forks expensive!

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

 

[[email protected]]

landotter wrote:
> Mark wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > landotter wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>I don't know about unsafe, but it's unprofessional, and I'd ask for the
> > >>manager, a refund for the "work" done, and a new fork. I mean, there's
> > >>a little thing called a "tubing cutter" which make it rather difficult
> > >>for the even dimmest monkeys to screw up cutting a steerer.
> > >
> > > if you mean a pipe cutter, that's not the way to cut the steerer, it
> > > deforms the diameter. a hacksaw or bandsaw or some other bladed cutter
> > > (like a cutting wheel?) is the only correct way i have heard of.
> >
> > I think/hope he was referring to a cutting guide that goes over the
> > steerer and guides the hacksaw blade in a square cut. Agree that what I
> > think of as a "tubing cutter" is inappropriate, so I assume he didn't
> > mean that.
>
> I did mean a regular old rotating tube cutter. Works great on steel w/o
> any deformation, don't know about aluminum. You can also use it in
> tandem with a hand saw to create a straight score to follow.


it may look like a nifty way to cut a steerer, but it bulges the tube
where it cuts, it has to. the result may or may not require further
finishing in which case you may as well just have used a hacksaw.

 

[Chalo]

landotter wrote:
>
> dookie wrote:
> >
> > the real problem: the monkeys at the local performace shop (the brand, not
> > the adjective) 'installed' the reba for me. the steerer is not cut square,
> > and is nearly 3/8" below the top of the stem as-is! is this unsafe?
>
> I don't know about unsafe, but it's unprofessional, and I'd ask for the
> manager, a refund for the "work" done, and a new fork.

This foolishness is what arises when manufacturers make forks whose
crowns and steerers can't be replaced. It's a few pennies cheaper for
them-- and hundreds of dollars more expensive for bike shops and their
customers. I mean, would the folks who buy such forks be willing to
throw down big bucks for a hub whose bent axle couldn't be replaced, or
a frame with a non-replaceable cut-to-fit seatpost?

(I'm aware that there are probably some examples of the aforementioned
somewhere, but still, c'mon!)

Chalo

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote:

> landotter wrote:
> >
> > dookie wrote:
> > >
> > > the real problem: the monkeys at the local performace shop (the brand,
> > > not
> > > the adjective) 'installed' the reba for me. the steerer is not cut
> > > square,
> > > and is nearly 3/8" below the top of the stem as-is! is this unsafe?
> >
> > I don't know about unsafe, but it's unprofessional, and I'd ask for the
> > manager, a refund for the "work" done, and a new fork.
>
> This foolishness is what arises when manufacturers make forks whose
> crowns and steerers can't be replaced. It's a few pennies cheaper for
> them-- and hundreds of dollars more expensive for bike shops and their
> customers. I mean, would the folks who buy such forks be willing to
> throw down big bucks for a hub whose bent axle couldn't be replaced, or
> a frame with a non-replaceable cut-to-fit seatpost?

I'd have more sympathy for this sentiment if getting the fork cut
correct was hard. You measure it up, you use one of a few correct tools
for the job, you measure it up again, and your margin of error for an
acceptable-to-customers job is probably +- 1/8" for the actual cut line,
a margin so great that I could probably train my dog to do it.*

Such work as the OP describes is unacceptable, and is not on its own a
justification for replaceable steerers (I agree with you, it would be a
nice feature).

Moreover, a fork should be cut once in its life, assuming it doesn't
wander off to another frame (which happens). Even if it does, my
inclination is always to cut conservatively (that is, leave some spacers
where possible).

Here's a challenge for you Chalo: given that any of the major suspension
manufacturers make forks by the thousands (if not tens of thousands, if
not more), and that the setup disaster noted above would be rare, how
often could bike shops screw up before they caused more money lost (in
wasteful replacement fork purchases) versus the money saved (for those
SRAM fat cats, at least) by non-replaceable steerers. Please include in
your answer the effects from reselling the "bad" forks, since in many
cases the screw-up is usable on some shorter bicycle.

> (I'm aware that there are probably some examples of the aforementioned
> somewhere, but still, c'mon!)

Giant and several other makers now sell top-of-the-line frame designs
with integrated seatposts as part of the frame. During the initial fit,
the tube is cut to size, and the special saddle mount on top can be
adjusted about an inch or two after the cut. This saves units, if not
dozens of grams over conventional designs. I can't think of an example
of a non-replaceable axle off the top of my head.

*my dog is part Australian Cattle Dog, and thus would rate as one of
those really smart working-dog breeds. No demented slobberhounds here.
But still.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

 

[Alex]

landotter wrote:

> I don't know about unsafe, but it's unprofessional, and I'd ask for the
> manager, a refund for the "work" done, and a new fork. I mean, there's
> a little thing called a "tubing cutter" which make it rather difficult
> for the even dimmest monkeys to screw up cutting a steerer. Likely the
> little morons used a hacksaw. You took the fork to a commercial shop
> for installation, not cousin Vinny's garage, twist their arm.

don't blame the tool. You can make good cuts with both a hack saw and
a tube
cutter. If you use a hack saw, you should use a cutting guide to get a
nice
square cut. The LBS I frequent uses a guide + hacksaw .
-------------------
Alex

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Alex" <[email protected]> wrote:

> landotter wrote:
>
> > I don't know about unsafe, but it's unprofessional, and I'd ask for the
> > manager, a refund for the "work" done, and a new fork. I mean, there's
> > a little thing called a "tubing cutter" which make it rather difficult
> > for the even dimmest monkeys to screw up cutting a steerer. Likely the
> > little morons used a hacksaw. You took the fork to a commercial shop
> > for installation, not cousin Vinny's garage, twist their arm.
>
> don't blame the tool. You can make good cuts with both a hack saw and
> a tube
> cutter. If you use a hack saw, you should use a cutting guide to get a
> nice
> square cut. The LBS I frequent uses a guide + hacksaw .
> -------------------
> Alex

Just to clarify, here's the tool:

http://parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=50&item=SG-6

I have one of these, though I don't think I've ever used it.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

 

[dookie]

update:

the fork has been swapped. installing a stem with a 10mm shorter clamp
bought me enough space that the top of the steerer is no longer below the
upper stem clamp bolt. i feel better, though i still wish there we a few
more mm in there.

i spoke with a manager at performance who offered only to grind the steerer
square and implied that perhaps *i* had created the problem (by installing
the tall clamp stem? a taller headset?), as their mechanics are trained (to
cut out of square?) nonsense.

and what's all this talk about press-fit forks? is it really true that the
steerer/crown assembly cannot be removed from the stanchions on the reba?

btw: the king kahuna absolutely rocks!

dookie

> the real problem: the monkeys at the local performace shop (the brand,
> not the adjective) 'installed' the reba for me. the steerer is not cut
> square, and is nearly 3/8" below the top of the stem as-is! is this
> unsafe?
>
> the headset is already low-stack (cane creek...~27mm), but luckily the
> current stem has a fairly tall clamp (50mm). if my math is correct, a
> 40mm clamp stem (there are many) should buy me a couple mm, but the
> steerer will still be well below the top of the stem.
>
> is it reasonable (and worth it...it's not really in my nature) to raise
> hell at performance and try to get either the stem or another
> crown/steerer? irregardless of the new frame, the work they did is shoddy
> at best.