Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy

Discussion in 'Health and medical' started by M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004, May 14, 2004.

  1. Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy

    2 hours, 32 minutes ago Add Health - HealthDay to My Yahoo!



    FRIDAY, May 14 (HealthDayNews) -- Researchers are looking for cardiac
    patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
    prevent heart attacks.

    Yahoo! Health
    Have questions about your health?
    Find answers here.






    Chelation, an alternative form of therapy, involves the intravenous infusion
    of disodium ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, combined with high doses of
    antioxidant vitamin and mineral supplements.


    Doctors with Rush University Medical Center believe the combination of
    calcium, zinc, cadmium, manganese, iron, and copper may reduce
    artery-clogging calcium deposits.


    Once enrolled in the study, patients will receive 30 weekly infusions of
    either the chelation solution or a placebo, followed by 10 additional
    infusion sessions every other week.


    To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented heart
    attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had chelation
    therapy within the last five years or have a history of allergic reaction to
    chelation therapy are not eligible.


    To enroll, call (888) 644-6226. More information about the national Trial to
    Assess Chelation Therapy can be found here.


    More information


    The American Heart Association (news - web sites) has more about chelation
    therapy for heart disease.
     
    Tags:


  2. Hawki63

    Hawki63 Guest

    >Subject: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    >From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" M.a.r.kP.r.o.b.e.r.t
    >[email protected]
    >Date: 5/14/2004 8:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>


    this is sorta scarey in itself

    first it says

    >patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
    >prevent heart attacks.


    PREVENT heart attacks

    then it says

    >To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented heart
    >attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had


    so....how can you PREVENT an event that has already occurred??

    And likely after the heart attack,,conventional would have done SOMETHING...ie
    thrombolytics,,angioplasty..stent..maybe open heart..

    so THEN if one has chelation...WHAT would be proven??

    the "event" already occurred...conventional did what is standard..

    it would be FAR fairer to be recruiting folks with NO heart attack,,but be at
    risk..and have angiographic proof that coronary arteries were in trouble..

    THEN do chelation...THEN repeat angiogram

    the way it is set up...this will NOT prove chelation did or did not do
    anything....

    think about it..
    hawki.....
     
  3. Anth

    Anth Guest

    You can have many heart attacks.
    Anth

    "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > >Subject: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > >From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" M.a.r.kP.r.o.b.e.r.t
    > >[email protected]
    > >Date: 5/14/2004 8:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > >Message-id: <[email protected]>

    >
    > this is sorta scarey in itself
    >
    > first it says
    >
    > >patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
    > >prevent heart attacks.

    >
    > PREVENT heart attacks
    >
    > then it says
    >
    > >To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented

    heart
    > >attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

    >
    > so....how can you PREVENT an event that has already occurred??
    >
    > And likely after the heart attack,,conventional would have done

    SOMETHING...ie
    > thrombolytics,,angioplasty..stent..maybe open heart..
    >
    > so THEN if one has chelation...WHAT would be proven??
    >
    > the "event" already occurred...conventional did what is standard..
    >
    > it would be FAR fairer to be recruiting folks with NO heart attack,,but be

    at
    > risk..and have angiographic proof that coronary arteries were in trouble..
    >
    > THEN do chelation...THEN repeat angiogram
    >
    > the way it is set up...this will NOT prove chelation did or did not do
    > anything....
    >
    > think about it..
    > hawki.....
    >
    >
     
  4. Anth

    Anth Guest

    If chelation has been thoroughly 'debunked' then why are 'researchers' still
    adamant in wanting to test it?
    Doesn't make sense.
    Anth

    "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
    [email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    >
    > 2 hours, 32 minutes ago Add Health - HealthDay to My Yahoo!
    >
    >
    >
    > FRIDAY, May 14 (HealthDayNews) -- Researchers are looking for cardiac
    > patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
    > prevent heart attacks.
    >
    > Yahoo! Health
    > Have questions about your health?
    > Find answers here.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Chelation, an alternative form of therapy, involves the intravenous

    infusion
    > of disodium ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, combined with high doses of
    > antioxidant vitamin and mineral supplements.
    >
    >
    > Doctors with Rush University Medical Center believe the combination of
    > calcium, zinc, cadmium, manganese, iron, and copper may reduce
    > artery-clogging calcium deposits.
    >
    >
    > Once enrolled in the study, patients will receive 30 weekly infusions of
    > either the chelation solution or a placebo, followed by 10 additional
    > infusion sessions every other week.
    >
    >
    > To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented heart
    > attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

    chelation
    > therapy within the last five years or have a history of allergic reaction

    to
    > chelation therapy are not eligible.
    >
    >
    > To enroll, call (888) 644-6226. More information about the national Trial

    to
    > Assess Chelation Therapy can be found here.
    >
    >
    > More information
    >
    >
    > The American Heart Association (news - web sites) has more about chelation
    > therapy for heart disease.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
  5. "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > >Subject: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > >From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" M.a.r.kP.r.o.b.e.r.t
    > >[email protected]
    > >Date: 5/14/2004 8:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > >Message-id: <[email protected]>

    >
    > this is sorta scarey in itself
    >
    > first it says
    >
    > >patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
    > >prevent heart attacks.

    >
    > PREVENT heart attacks
    >
    > then it says
    >
    > >To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented

    heart
    > >attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

    >
    > so....how can you PREVENT an event that has already occurred??
    >
    > And likely after the heart attack,,conventional would have done

    SOMETHING...ie
    > thrombolytics,,angioplasty..stent..maybe open heart..
    >
    > so THEN if one has chelation...WHAT would be proven??
    >
    > the "event" already occurred...conventional did what is standard..
    >
    > it would be FAR fairer to be recruiting folks with NO heart attack,,but be

    at
    > risk..and have angiographic proof that coronary arteries were in trouble..
    >
    > THEN do chelation...THEN repeat angiogram
    >
    > the way it is set up...this will NOT prove chelation did or did not do
    > anything....
    >
    > think about it..


    Prevent a second heart attack is more likely what they meant. However, that,
    is a bad criteria, unless N= a very high number.

    if the CHEATlation increases the lumina, which I hope they test for, then it
    wil lbe shown to have a positive effect.
     
  6. "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > If chelation has been thoroughly 'debunked' then why are 'researchers'

    still
    > adamant in wanting to test it?
    > Doesn't make sense.


    It has not been debunked. It has never been shown to address the underlying
    disease process. Hopefully, this is the study that will do it.

    > Anth
    >
    > "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
    > [email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > >
    > > 2 hours, 32 minutes ago Add Health - HealthDay to My Yahoo!
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > FRIDAY, May 14 (HealthDayNews) -- Researchers are looking for cardiac
    > > patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
    > > prevent heart attacks.
    > >
    > > Yahoo! Health
    > > Have questions about your health?
    > > Find answers here.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Chelation, an alternative form of therapy, involves the intravenous

    > infusion
    > > of disodium ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, combined with high doses of
    > > antioxidant vitamin and mineral supplements.
    > >
    > >
    > > Doctors with Rush University Medical Center believe the combination of
    > > calcium, zinc, cadmium, manganese, iron, and copper may reduce
    > > artery-clogging calcium deposits.
    > >
    > >
    > > Once enrolled in the study, patients will receive 30 weekly infusions of
    > > either the chelation solution or a placebo, followed by 10 additional
    > > infusion sessions every other week.
    > >
    > >
    > > To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented

    heart
    > > attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

    > chelation
    > > therapy within the last five years or have a history of allergic

    reaction
    > to
    > > chelation therapy are not eligible.
    > >
    > >
    > > To enroll, call (888) 644-6226. More information about the national

    Trial
    > to
    > > Assess Chelation Therapy can be found here.
    > >
    > >
    > > More information
    > >
    > >
    > > The American Heart Association (news - web sites) has more about

    chelation
    > > therapy for heart disease.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
  7. Hawki63

    Hawki63 Guest

    >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    >From: "Anth" [email protected]
    >Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>


    >You can have many heart attacks.
    >Anth
    >


    yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the inclusion
    criteria is poorly worded

    my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria was for
    those who ALREADY had an event

    it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary artery
    bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...

    thus...I don't get it...

    and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply has
    never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it works...

    thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart attack
    "yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation angiography that
    the arteries are clear...

    perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...


    hawki.....
     
  8. Peter Moran

    Peter Moran Guest

    "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > >From: "Anth" [email protected]
    > >Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > >Message-id: <[email protected]>

    >
    > >You can have many heart attacks.
    > >Anth
    > >

    >
    > yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the

    inclusion
    > criteria is poorly worded
    >
    > my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria was

    for
    > those who ALREADY had an event
    >
    > it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary

    artery
    > bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...
    >
    > thus...I don't get it...
    >
    > and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply has
    > never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it works...
    >
    > thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart

    attack
    > "yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation angiography

    that
    > the arteries are clear...
    >
    > perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...


    A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
    ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid arteries.
    That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly believed
    what they claim.

    So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly challenge
    the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show the
    arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
    "well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".

    Peter Moran
     
  9. Hawki63

    Hawki63 Guest

    >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    >From: "Peter Moran" [email protected]
    >Date: 5/14/2004 3:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
    >Message-id:
    ><[email protected]works.com.au>
    >


    >A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
    >ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid arteries.
    >That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly believed
    >what they claim.
    >
    >So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly challenge
    >the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show the
    >arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
    >"well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".
    >
    >Peter Moran



    sorry Peter...I did not mean to imply I believed chelation COULD treat
    atherosclerosis...but that this study as written would prove nothing...about
    chelation....

    "prevent" a second heart attack?? is sorta dumb...as depending upon the
    intervention after the first...there may not have been a second anyhoo.....

    and I agree with you that the chelationists could design a trial that could
    prove or disprove the efficacy...obviously they don't want to show it does not
    work...



    hawki.....
     
  10. Peter Moran

    Peter Moran Guest

    "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > >From: "Peter Moran" [email protected]
    > >Date: 5/14/2004 3:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
    > >Message-id:

    >
    ><[email protected]works.com.

    au>
    > >

    >
    > >A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
    > >ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid

    arteries.
    > >That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly

    believed
    > >what they claim.
    > >
    > >So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly

    challenge
    > >the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show

    the
    > >arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
    > >"well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".
    > >
    > >Peter Moran

    >
    >
    > sorry Peter...I did not mean to imply I believed chelation COULD treat
    > atherosclerosis...but that this study as written would prove

    nothing...about
    > chelation....


    I didn't think you did. I would even question whether there is any
    obligation on the medical profession as a whole to investigate chelation
    further. The traditions and conventions of the profession to which the
    chelationists belong requires THEM to substantiate their claims with real
    evidence. Too many quacks already find it convenient to adopt a "prove I
    am wrong" strategy, thus totally reversing the normal burden of proof.

    Peter Moran
     
  11. Orac

    Orac Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (Hawki63) wrote:

    > >Subject: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > >From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004" M.a.r.kP.r.o.b.e.r.t
    > >[email protected]
    > >Date: 5/14/2004 8:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > >Message-id: <[email protected]>

    >
    > this is sorta scarey in itself
    >
    > first it says
    >
    > >patients to participate in a study to test whether chelation therapy can
    > >prevent heart attacks.

    >
    > PREVENT heart attacks
    >
    > then it says
    >
    > >To qualify, patients must be older than 50 and have had a documented heart
    > >attack more than six weeks before enrollment. People who have had

    >
    > so....how can you PREVENT an event that has already occurred??
    >
    > And likely after the heart attack,,conventional would have done SOMETHING...ie
    > thrombolytics,,angioplasty..stent..maybe open heart..
    >
    > so THEN if one has chelation...WHAT would be proven??


    Why the problem? As I recall, this is exactly how they first showed the
    utility of statins in preventing second heart attacks.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"
     
  12. Orac

    Orac Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (Hawki63) wrote:

    > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > >From: "Anth" [email protected]
    > >Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > >Message-id: <[email protected]>

    >
    > >You can have many heart attacks.
    > >Anth
    > >

    >
    > yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the inclusion
    > criteria is poorly worded


    Not at all. It is a common study design in cardiovascular drugs to see
    if they can prevent a second cardiac incident in high risk patients.


    > my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria was for
    > those who ALREADY had an event


    Yes, but it's for prevention of a second event.


    > it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary artery
    > bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...


    Not a problem. Such people are still put on aspirin or statins after
    surgery or stenting in order to prevent a second event.


    > thus...I don't get it...


    There may be things to criticize about the study, but this isn't really
    one of them.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"
     
  13. Orac

    Orac Guest

    In article
    <[email protected]works.c
    om.au>,
    "Peter Moran" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > > >From: "Peter Moran" [email protected]
    > > >Date: 5/14/2004 3:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
    > > >Message-id:

    > >
    > ><[email protected]works.com.

    > au>
    > > >

    > >
    > > >A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
    > > >ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid

    > arteries.
    > > >That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly

    > believed
    > > >what they claim.
    > > >
    > > >So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly

    > challenge
    > > >the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show

    > the
    > > >arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
    > > >"well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".
    > > >
    > > >Peter Moran

    > >
    > >
    > > sorry Peter...I did not mean to imply I believed chelation COULD treat
    > > atherosclerosis...but that this study as written would prove

    > nothing...about
    > > chelation....

    >
    > I didn't think you did. I would even question whether there is any
    > obligation on the medical profession as a whole to investigate chelation
    > further. The traditions and conventions of the profession to which the
    > chelationists belong requires THEM to substantiate their claims with real
    > evidence. Too many quacks already find it convenient to adopt a "prove I
    > am wrong" strategy, thus totally reversing the normal burden of proof.


    Indeed. There have been a few randomized, double-blind studies of
    chelation therapy for CAD. None of them have shown a benefit above
    placebo. Although they are relatively small, they were powered enough to
    let us conclude that if there really is a benefit from chelation, it is
    small, certainly far smaller than what is claimed by chelationists.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"
     
  14. Orac

    Orac Guest

    In article
    <[email protected]works.c
    om.au>,
    "Peter Moran" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > > >From: "Anth" [email protected]
    > > >Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > > >Message-id: <[email protected]>

    > >
    > > >You can have many heart attacks.
    > > >Anth
    > > >

    > >
    > > yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the

    > inclusion
    > > criteria is poorly worded
    > >
    > > my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria was

    > for
    > > those who ALREADY had an event
    > >
    > > it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary

    > artery
    > > bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...
    > >
    > > thus...I don't get it...
    > >
    > > and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply has
    > > never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it works...
    > >
    > > thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart

    > attack
    > > "yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation angiography

    > that
    > > the arteries are clear...
    > >
    > > perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...

    >
    > A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
    > ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid arteries.
    > That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly believed
    > what they claim.
    >
    > So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly challenge
    > the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show the
    > arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
    > "well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".


    One problem is, even if the study proposed turns out negative, the
    chelationists will always find a flaw in it. For instance, in this case,
    they will claim that perhaps chelation can't prevent recurrent MIs but
    that it can prevent the first MI. Both claims must be tested.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"
     
  15. Hawki63

    Hawki63 Guest

    >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    >From: Orac [email protected]
    >Date: 5/15/2004 3:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>


    >Why the problem? As I recall, this is exactly how they first showed the
    >utility of statins in preventing second heart attacks.
    >


    sorry... I don't recall that the wording said "prevent subsequent MI"

    also..I still wonder how reliable such a study would be...esp if the first MI
    had been treated with CABG....since "they" are supposed to be "good" for at
    least 10 years?? well...at least for the vessels bypassed....


    hawki.....
     
  16. Anth

    Anth Guest

    "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:eek:[email protected]

    > Indeed. There have been a few randomized, double-blind studies of
    > chelation therapy for CAD. None of them have shown a benefit above
    > placebo.


    I think that is misleading, it depends on what your defintiion of a
    'placebo' is. Is it active or inactive?
    When you have cleared that issue up you will see that there was significant
    objective benefit in both groups in where an active placebo was used. As a
    scientist you would see that and conclude that more studies need to be done
    on the 'active placebo.' All you can conclude is that the chelation agent
    alone showed no response.

    > Although they are relatively small, they were powered enough to
    > let us conclude that if there really is a benefit from chelation, it is
    > small, certainly far smaller than what is claimed by chelationists.


    <See above> (This is my argument for vitamin c)
    Anth

    > --
    > Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    > |
    > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    > | inconvenience me with questions?"
     
  17. Anth

    Anth Guest

    "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:eek:[email protected]
    > In article
    > <[email protected]works.c
    > om.au>,
    > "Peter Moran" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > > > >From: "Anth" [email protected]
    > > > >Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > > > >Message-id: <[email protected]>
    > > >
    > > > >You can have many heart attacks.
    > > > >Anth
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the

    > > inclusion
    > > > criteria is poorly worded
    > > >
    > > > my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria

    was
    > > for
    > > > those who ALREADY had an event
    > > >
    > > > it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary

    > > artery
    > > > bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...
    > > >
    > > > thus...I don't get it...
    > > >
    > > > and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply

    has
    > > > never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it

    works...
    > > >
    > > > thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart

    > > attack
    > > > "yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation

    angiography
    > > that
    > > > the arteries are clear...
    > > >
    > > > perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...

    > >
    > > A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
    > > ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid

    arteries.
    > > That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly

    believed
    > > what they claim.
    > >
    > > So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly

    challenge
    > > the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show

    the
    > > arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
    > > "well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".

    >
    > One problem is, even if the study proposed turns out negative, the
    > chelationists will always find a flaw in it. For instance, in this case,
    > they will claim that perhaps chelation can't prevent recurrent MIs but
    > that it can prevent the first MI. Both claims must be tested.


    Indeed this is what happens with things like Laetrile, ascorbate for cancer
    and other things.
    Still doesn't prove anything, when do these guys stop - it's not going to
    happen because they 'know' that the therapy works in an uncontrolled
    setting?
    Anth

    > --
    > Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    > |
    > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    > | inconvenience me with questions?"
     
  18. Hawki63

    Hawki63 Guest

    >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    >From: Orac [email protected]
    >Date: 5/15/2004 3:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>


    >Not at all. It is a common study design in cardiovascular drugs to see
    >if they can prevent a second cardia


    I realize that

    >Yes, but it's for prevention of a second event.
    >


    I musta missed that part...

    >Not a problem. Such people are still put on aspirin or statins after
    >surgery or stenting in order to prevent a second event.


    again..of course....

    but nowhere did the inclusion criteria say "no adjuvant therapy"..ie
    statins,,aspirin,,Plavix etc


    so HOW to prove it was the chelation??

    again...if CABG was done..the study would have to be strung out for many
    years...less so if stents


    hawki.....
     
  19. Hawki63

    Hawki63 Guest

    >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    >From: Orac [email protected]
    >Date: 5/15/2004 3:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>
    >


    >One problem is, even if the study proposed turns out negative, the
    >chelationists will always find a flaw in it. For instance, in this case,
    >they will claim that perhaps chelation can't prevent recurrent MIs but
    >that it can prevent the first MI. Both claims must be tested.
    >
    >--
    >Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    > |
    > |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    > | inconvenience me with questions?"
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >


    agreed


    hawki.....
     
  20. Anth

    Anth Guest

    "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
    > >From: "Anth" [email protected]
    > >Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    > >Message-id: <[email protected]>

    >
    > >You can have many heart attacks.
    > >Anth
    > >

    >
    > yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the

    inclusion
    > criteria is poorly worded
    >
    > my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria was

    for
    > those who ALREADY had an event
    >
    > it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary

    artery
    > bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...
    >
    > thus...I don't get it...


    Well that's where ethics come in, do you deny a group of patients drugs
    which help them, just so you can get your scientific results?

    > and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply has
    > never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it works...


    IMHO the chelating agent has been 'debunked', but the individual parts have
    not.
    Clue - active placebo - ascorbate

    > thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart

    attack
    > "yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation angiography

    that
    > the arteries are clear...


    > perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...


    I'm sure it could be designed better, you might want to email a few
    cardiologists for their opinion.

    > hawki.....


    Anth
     
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