Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy

  • Thread starter M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004
  • Start date



"Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
> >From: Orac [email protected]
> >Date: 5/15/2004 3:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <[email protected]>

>
> >Not at all. It is a common study design in cardiovascular drugs to see
> >if they can prevent a second cardia

>
> I realize that
>
> >Yes, but it's for prevention of a second event.
> >

>
> I musta missed that part...
>
> >Not a problem. Such people are still put on aspirin or statins after
> >surgery or stenting in order to prevent a second event.

>
> again..of course....
>
> but nowhere did the inclusion criteria say "no adjuvant therapy"..ie
> statins,,aspirin,,Plavix etc
>
>
> so HOW to prove it was the chelation??


Oversimplified case, say you have 100 people taking aspirin in your
group,100 people taking aspirin+chelation.
You can compare the groups to see if there's any difference.

> again...if CABG was done..the study would have to be strung out for many
> years...less so if stents
>
>
> hawki.....


Anth
 
>Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>From: "Anth" [email protected]
>Date: 5/15/2004 5:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>Why is he a 'quack'?
>Anth
>
>"Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>> >From: [email protected] (Jan)
>> >Date: 5/15/2004 4:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: <[email protected]>


http://askwaltstollmd.com/body_quackery.html

False Cry of Quackery
"Since the early 60's, organized groups have worked overtly and covertly to
unfairly destroy beneficial alternative practices."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------


By Martha Kent

Quackery is a word that immediately attracts attention. It implies medical
fraud that may harm us or at least waste our money. All of us need to know when
it is applied justly and when it is a false cry. It has also happened that some
alternatives once labeled as quackery are now mainstream medical practices.
Chiropractic was once targeted by the AMA for containment and eventual
elimination, yet has grown more popular in this era of sports medicine and is
even approved for Medicare payments. Other changes in acceptance have involved
folic acid, vitamin C, other anti-oxidants, and nutritional supplements.

The AMA first launched a campaign to rid the country of quack remedies at the
turn of the century. At that time there were no controls for fraudulent
labeling and deceptive ads. We need to know, however, that since the early 60's
organized groups have worked overtly and covertly to unfairly destroy
beneficial alternative practices. This has been documented by P. Joseph Lisa in
his book, The Assault on Medical Freedom (1994). He describes the pervasiveness
of an ongoing campaign which began in 1963, when the AMA's Board of Trustees
established the Committee on Quackery, headed by Doyle Taylor. He details the
formation and functions of the Coordinating Conference on Health Information
which paralleled the AMA group. The participants in this group were the AMA,
American Cancer Society, American Pharmaceutical Association, Arthritis
Foundation, Council of Better Business Bureaus, National Health Council, FDA,
Federal Trade Commission, US Postal Service, and Office of Consumer Affairs.

These two groups acted as a task force on quackery. Minutes of meetings over
subsequent years revealed interest in targeting vitamins, homeopathy,
chiropractic, naturopathy, all alternative cancer treatments and other
practices which compete with the drug sales of pharmaceutical companies. In
1972, the illegal anti-competitive activities of the AMA were exposed to the
public. Eventually the AMA had to pay the US Postal Service $1 million and owed
the IRS $15 million.

According to Lisa, in 1984, the Pharmaceutical Advertising Council and the FDA
entered a joint campaign called the Public Service Anti-Quackery Campaign. They
targeted entities in economic competition with the pharmaceutical and medical
industries calling them "quacks" or "health frauds". The FDA at the same time
focused its attack against alternative manufacturers of vitamins, supplements,
and herbs. Various groups had differing target priorities in the war but the
targets had two things in common: they did not use pharmaceuticals in healing
and they were in direct competition with conventional medical practices. This
campaign was waged in three ways: attempting to identify supplements as "quack
products" which alternative medicine uses in place of drugs, investigation and
seizure by the FDA using the Task Force once the items were identified, holding
congressional hearings attacking supplements and making it easier to pass laws
against their use.

A recent organized effort to suppress alternative medicine occurred in February
1997 when the Federation of State Medical Boards adopted the recommendations of
the Special Committee on Health Care Fraud. To the naive eye, this report
appeared to protect the public from medical fraud. However, the wording
throughout had the far reaching purpose to eliminate all alternative practices.
The FSMB included among its strategies the intent to strengthen the power of
the State Medical Boards to monitor questionable medical practices, to work
with state prosecutors on disciplinary action, and to oppose state legislative
initiatives which might diminish the ability of State Medical Boards to
regulate questionable health practices. The complete text of the FSMB Report
has been reprinted in the Aug/Sept 1997 issue of the Townsend Letter for Doctor
and Patients.

In the face of popular support of alternative therapies, usually paid for by
the patient, it appears that the public is increasingly turning a deaf ear to
these false cries of quackery. Supplements and other practices once labeled as
quackery are gaining acceptance by mainstream doctors. Interest in homeopathy
and naturopathy are undergoing revivals. There is great interest in alternative
cancer and arthritis treatments. Therapeutic touch, a type of energy healing,
is offered in schools of nursing.

We can't foresee whether any of those who cry quackery today will avail
themselves of alternative therapy when degenerative disease strikes home. Our
own best protection is to stay healthy and to find doctors experienced in both
conventional and holistic methods. As more of us are willing to pay for
effective treatments that cost less and are non-toxic, the health insurers take
increasing notice. On our part, we need to support state groups which are
trying to protect our medical rights. We can also support state and federal
bills that preserve the patients freedom of choice by phoning legislators at
their home offices or the Capitol Switchboard, (202) 224-3121.
 
>Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>From: "Anth" [email protected]
>Date: 5/15/2004 6:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <G6mdnUNNXKFkIjvd4p2dnA@ni


>Why is he a 'quack'?
>Anth


ahhhh...cuz his website sells things???

enuf evidence for me


hawki.....
 
"Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
> >From: "Anth" [email protected]
> >Date: 5/15/2004 6:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <G6mdnUNNXKFkIjvd4p2dnA@ni

>
> >Why is he a 'quack'?
> >Anth

>
> ahhhh...cuz his website sells things???



(Does nothing to refute the points he made about the chelation studies)

> enuf evidence for me
>
> hawki.....


Anth
 
>Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>From: "Anth" [email protected]
>Date: 5/15/2004 6:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>"Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>> >From: "Anth" [email protected]
>> >Date: 5/15/2004 6:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: <G6mdnUNNXKFkIjvd4p2dnA@ni

>>
>> >Why is he a 'quack'?
>> >Anth

>>
>> ahhhh...cuz his website sells things???

>
>
>(Does nothing to refute the points he made about the chelation studies)
>
>> enuf evidence for me
>>
>> hawki.....

>
>Anth


Talk about exucses to call one a quack.

ahhhhhhhhh that's hawki

A pity she didn't tell us AGAIN how smart she is and how stupid all others are.

Jan
 
>Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>From: [email protected] (Jan)
>Date: 5/15/2004 7:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>


>A pity she didn't tell us AGAIN how smart she is and how stupid all others
>are.
>
>Jan
>


not ALL others Janster

just you...spamming Dave

etc etc


hawki.....
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:eek:[email protected]...
>
> > Indeed. There have been a few randomized, double-blind studies of
> > chelation therapy for CAD. None of them have shown a benefit above
> > placebo.

>
> I think that is misleading, it depends on what your defintiion of a
> 'placebo' is. Is it active or inactive?
> When you have cleared that issue up you will see that there was significant
> objective benefit in both groups in where an active placebo was used. As a
> scientist you would see that and conclude that more studies need to be done
> on the 'active placebo.' All you can conclude is that the chelation agent
> alone showed no response.


Why would you need an active placebo? I thought that chelationists claim
that chelation therapy doesn't have much in the way of side effects to
mimic.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
Would you or would you not say vitamin c is an active placebo?
Anth

"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:eek:[email protected]...
> >
> > > Indeed. There have been a few randomized, double-blind studies of
> > > chelation therapy for CAD. None of them have shown a benefit above
> > > placebo.

> >
> > I think that is misleading, it depends on what your defintiion of a
> > 'placebo' is. Is it active or inactive?
> > When you have cleared that issue up you will see that there was

significant
> > objective benefit in both groups in where an active placebo was used. As

a
> > scientist you would see that and conclude that more studies need to be

done
> > on the 'active placebo.' All you can conclude is that the chelation

agent
> > alone showed no response.

>
> Why would you need an active placebo? I thought that chelationists claim
> that chelation therapy doesn't have much in the way of side effects to
> mimic.
>
> --
> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
> |
> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
> | inconvenience me with questions?"
 
"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Why is he a 'quack'?


He is selling a treatment for something thast it has never been shown to do
any good, i.e. treat the underlying pathology.


> Anth
>
> "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
> > >From: [email protected] (Jan)
> > >Date: 5/15/2004 4:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> > >Message-id: <[email protected]>
> > >

> >
> > >http://drcranton.com/sham.htm

> >
> > ohhhh yeah...the quack cranston again..
> >
> > do you know any REPUTABLE docs Janny??
> > hawki.....
> >
> >

>
>
 
"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> In article
> <40a5430b$0$30203$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-01.brisbane.pipenetworks.c
> om.au>,
> "Peter Moran" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
> > > >From: "Anth" [email protected]
> > > >Date: 5/14/2004 10:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> > > >Message-id: <[email protected]>
> > >
> > > >You can have many heart attacks.
> > > >Anth
> > > >
> > >
> > > yes of course Anth...I am not debating that fact....and perhaps the

> > inclusion
> > > criteria is poorly worded
> > >
> > > my remark concerned the word "prevention" when the inclusion criteria

was
> > for
> > > those who ALREADY had an event
> > >
> > > it is very likely..that those who have had "intervention" esp coronary

> > artery
> > > bypass grafting are already less likely to have a second event...
> > >
> > > thus...I don't get it...
> > >
> > > and BTW...I do NOT feel chelation for CAD has been debunked..it simply

has
> > > never been studied with pre and post angiographic proof that it

works...
> > >
> > > thus...better that a study sought those with KNOWN CAD,,,but no heart

> > attack
> > > "yet"...give them chelation ...THEN document by post chelation

angiography
> > that
> > > the arteries are clear...
> > >
> > > perhaps this study is going after it the wrong way...

> >
> > A safer and thus more ethical version of such a study would involve
> > ultrasound follow-up of atherosclerosis in the femoral or carotid

arteries.
> > That could be very simply done by the chelationists if they truly

believed
> > what they claim.
> >
> > So I agree in part, but I think it is also desirable to directly

challenge
> > the specific claims of the chelationists. If such a trial did not show

the
> > arteries improving, the chelationists would simply change their claim:
> > "well, we don't know why it works, but we know it stops heart attacks".

>
> One problem is, even if the study proposed turns out negative, the
> chelationists will always find a flaw in it. For instance, in this case,
> they will claim that perhaps chelation can't prevent recurrent MIs but
> that it can prevent the first MI. Both claims must be tested.


Actually, what must be tested is that narrowed arterial lumina are opened.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Would you or would you not say vitamin c is an active placebo?


The evidence would say that it is not, at least for atherosclerotic
heart disease.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 16, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email protected]> wrote:

> "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:eek:[email protected]...


> > One problem is, even if the study proposed turns out negative, the
> > chelationists will always find a flaw in it. For instance, in this case,
> > they will claim that perhaps chelation can't prevent recurrent MIs but
> > that it can prevent the first MI. Both claims must be tested.

>
> Actually, what must be tested is that narrowed arterial lumina are opened.


Well, that was sort of assumed in my discussion, but symptom relief
relative to placebo is also important. For instance, if the study finds
significant symptom relief or significant decrease in risk of heart
disease (highly unlikely based on present data, but if we are going to
do the study we must consider such an outcome as a possibility--
otherwise, why bother to do the study?) without objective evidence of
decreased plaque in arteries, then we must consider another mechanism.

I consider it highly unlikely that this study will be positive, but, if
the study is going to be done, in order to try to avoid the inevitable
charges from alties that it is biased or designed to be negative, the
designers have to take the possibilities that the therapy might work,
but by a different mechanism than thought, into account, just as is done
in nearly every other clinical trial. Usually, the trial that identifies
a drug's efficacy but not by the expected mechanism can't identify the
true mechanism, but it serves as a basis for further study.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
(I think that comment is wrong vitamin c is known to prevent heart attacks)
Also the rebuttal Jan posted on the chelation studies shows how much
disinformation has been pushed around it.
I tend to disagree.
Anth

"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Would you or would you not say vitamin c is an active placebo?

>
> The evidence would say that it is not, at least for atherosclerotic
> heart disease.
>
> --
> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
> |
> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
> | inconvenience me with questions?"
 
He seems to think it has - he posted a clear rebuttal of the chelation
studies disinformation.
Anth

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 16, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Why is he a 'quack'?

>
> He is selling a treatment for something thast it has never been shown to

do
> any good, i.e. treat the underlying pathology.
>
>
> > Anth
> >
> > "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
> > > >From: [email protected] (Jan)
> > > >Date: 5/15/2004 4:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> > > >Message-id: <[email protected]>
> > > >
> > >
> > > >http://drcranton.com/sham.htm
> > >
> > > ohhhh yeah...the quack cranston again..
> > >
> > > do you know any REPUTABLE docs Janny??
> > > hawki.....
> > >
> > >

> >
> >

>
>
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Jan) wrote:

>
> http://drcranton.com/sham.htm
>
> AMA PUBLISHES JUNK SCIENCE IN
> ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT CHELATION
>
> http://drcranton.com/chelation/chelationcritics.htm
>
> CHELATION CRITICS PUBLISH
> ***DECEPTIVE DATA***
>
> http://drcranton.com/chelation/rebuttal.htm
>
>
> BUSTING THE QUACKBUSTERS
> REBUTTAL TO "QUACKWATCH" WEBSITE OPPOSING CHELATION THERAPY:


Of course he wouldn't like what has been said; if people started
listening to the actual evidence for (or more correctly, the lack of
evidence for) chelation, it would be bad for his business.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:

> (I think that comment is wrong vitamin c is known to prevent heart attacks)


Really? What well-designed studies show this?

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"