Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy

  • Thread starter M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 14, 2004
  • Start date



In article <[email protected]>,
"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
> > >From: "Anth" [email protected]
> > >Date: 5/15/2004 6:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> > >Message-id: <G6mdnUNNXKFkIjvd4p2dnA@ni

> >
> > >Why is he a 'quack'?
> > >Anth

> >
> > ahhhh...cuz his website sells things???

>
>
> (Does nothing to refute the points he made about the chelation studies)


I seem to recall having done so in the past. If I can find my original
posting I'll repost it. Otherwise, I don't know if it's worth my effort
to do it again.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
(What is a well designed study when the studies are lies - they show one
thing in their data and then post something else?)
Anth

"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > (I think that comment is wrong vitamin c is known to prevent heart

attacks)
>
> Really? What well-designed studies show this?
>
> --
> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
> |
> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
> | inconvenience me with questions?"
 
ok cool I'd like to see.
Anth

"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
> > > >From: "Anth" [email protected]
> > > >Date: 5/15/2004 6:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> > > >Message-id: <G6mdnUNNXKFkIjvd4p2dnA@ni
> > >
> > > >Why is he a 'quack'?
> > > >Anth
> > >
> > > ahhhh...cuz his website sells things???

> >
> >
> > (Does nothing to refute the points he made about the chelation studies)

>
> I seem to recall having done so in the past. If I can find my original
> posting I'll repost it. Otherwise, I don't know if it's worth my effort
> to do it again.
>
> --
> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
> |
> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
> | inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Orac <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Jan) wrote:
>>
>> http://drcranton.com/sham.htm
>>
>> AMA PUBLISHES JUNK SCIENCE IN
>> ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT CHELATION
>>
>> http://drcranton.com/chelation/chelationcritics.htm
>>
>> CHELATION CRITICS PUBLISH
>> ***DECEPTIVE DATA***
>>
>> http://drcranton.com/chelation/rebuttal.htm
>>
>> BUSTING THE QUACKBUSTERS
>> REBUTTAL TO "QUACKWATCH" WEBSITE OPPOSING CHELATION THERAPY:

>
>Of course he wouldn't like what has been said; if people started
>listening to the actual evidence for (or more correctly, the lack of
>evidence for) chelation, it would be bad for his business.


Orac, Orac, Orac. Don't you know that all alternative practitioners
are selfless saints for whom the money is irrelevant? It's only you
greedy MDs who are motivated by cash. Geez, I can see you just
haven't been paying attention here.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
 
Anth_Needs_Political_Re-Education wrote:

>(I think that comment is wrong vitamin c is known to prevent heart attacks)


Really? Please site some replicated, controlled study which shows that.

>Also the rebuttal Jan posted on the chelation studies shows how much
>disinformation has been pushed around it.
>I tend to disagree.
>Anth


Show us radiographic evidence that it works!

>"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:eek:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > Would you or would you not say vitamin c is an active placebo?

>>
>> The evidence would say that it is not, at least for atherosclerotic
>> heart disease.
>>
>> --
>> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
>> |
>> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
>> | inconvenience me with questions?"

>
>
>
>
 
>Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>From: "Anth" [email protected]
>Date: 5/16/2004 10:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>He seems to think it has - he posted a clear rebuttal of the chelation
>studies disinformation.
>Anth


All dismissed by EOM.

>"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 16, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
>[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > Why is he a 'quack'?

>>
>> He is selling a treatment for something thast it has never been shown to

>do
>> any good, i.e. treat the underlying pathology.


That is clearly lie, it has been shown over and over.
>> > Anth
>> >
>> > "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> > > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>> > > >From: [email protected] (Jan)
>> > > >Date: 5/15/2004 4:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> > > >Message-id: <[email protected]>
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > >http://drcranton.com/sham.htm
>> > >
>> > > ohhhh yeah...the quack cranston again..
>> > >
>> > > do you know any REPUTABLE docs Janny??
>> > > hawki..


The *gang* keeps asking the same questions over and over. Bad memories.

Look it up.
==
"..so many centuries after the Creation it is unlikely that anyone could
find hitherto unknown lands of any value." - committee advising Ferdinand
and Isabella regarding Columbus' proposal, 1486

"I would sooner believe that two Yankee professors lied, than that stones
fell from the sky" - Thomas Jefferson, 1807 on hearing an eyewitness
report of falling meteorites.

"Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil?
You're crazy." - Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his
project to drill for oil in 1859.

"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." - Pierre
Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872

"The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the
intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." - Sir John Eric Ericksen,
British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria
1873.

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered
as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to
us." - Western Union internal memo, 1876. I'VE HEARD ONE REPORT THAT THIS
QUOTE WAS A HOAX, THE INTERNAL MEMO WAS A RECENT FORGERY

"Such startling announcements as these should be deprecated as being
unworthy of science and mischievious to to its true progress" - Sir
William Siemens, 1880, on Edison's announcement of a sucessful light bulb.

"We are probably nearing the limit of all we can know about astronomy." -
Simon Newcomb, astronomer, 1888

"Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time. Nobody
will use it, ever." - Thomas Edison, 1889

"Everything that can be invented has been invented." - Charles H.
Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899. NO, THIS WAS A
MISQUOTE, HE NEVER SAID THIS. SKEPTICAL INQUIRER EVEN DEBUNKED THIS.


"The more important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have
all been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the
possibility of their ever being supplanted in consequence of new
discoveries is exceedingly remote.... Our future discoveries must be
looked for in the sixth place of decimals." - physicist Albert. A.
Michelson, 1894


"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin,
president, Royal Society, 1895.


"It is apparent to me that the possibilities of the aeroplane, which two
or three years ago were thought to hold the solution to the [flying
machine] problem, have been exhausted, and that we must turn elsewhere."
- Thomas Edison, 1895


"The demonstration that no possible combination of known substances, known
forms of machinery, and known forms of force can be united in a
practicable machine by which men shall fly for long distances through the
air, seems to the writer as complete as it is possible for the
demonstration of any physical fact to be." - astronomer S. Newcomb, 1906


"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." - Marechal
Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre.

"Caterpillar landships are idiotic and useless. Those officers and men
are wasting their time and are not pulling their proper weight in the war"
- Fourth Lord of the British Admiralty, 1915, in regards to use of tanks
in war.

"Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and
reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against
which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily
in high schools." - 1921 New York Times editorial about Robert
Goddard's revolutionary rocket work.

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who
would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" - David
Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the
radio in the 1920s.

"All a trick." "A Mere Mountebank." "Absolute swindler." "Doesn't know
what he's about." "What's the good of it?" "What useful purpose will it
serve?" - Members of Britain's Royal Society, 1926, after a demonstration
of television.

"This foolish idea of shooting at the moon is an example of the absurd
lengths to which vicious specialisation will carry scientists."
-A.W. Bickerton, physicist, NZ, 1926

"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" - H.M. Warner, Warner
Brothers, 1927.

"Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." -
Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929.

"There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be
obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at
will." -- Albert Einstein, 1932

"The energy produced by the atom is a very poor kind of thing. Anyone who
expects a source of power from the transformation of these atoms is
talking moonshine" - Ernst Rutherford, 1933

"The whole procedure [of shooting rockets into space]...presents
difficulties of so fundamental a nature, that we are forced to dismiss the
notion as essentially impracticable, in spite of the author's insistent
appeal to put aside prejudice and to recollect the supposed impossibility
of heavier-than-air flight before it was actually accomplished." Richard
van der Riet Wooley, British astronomer, reviewing P.E. Cleator's "Rockets
in Space", Nature, March 14, 1936

"Space travel is utter bilge!" -Sir Richard Van Der Riet Wolley, astronomer

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." - Thomas
Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." - Popular
Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949

"I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked
with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a
fad that won't last out the year." - The editor in charge of business
books for Prentice Hall, 1957

"Space travel is bunk" -Sir Harold Spencer Jones, Astronomer Royal of
Britain, 1957, two weeks before the launch of Sputnik

"There is practically no chance communications space satellites will be
used to provide better telephone, telegraph, television, or radio
service inside the Unided States." -T. Craven, FCC Commissioner, 1961

"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." -
Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.

"But what... is it good for?" - Engineer at the Advanced Computing
Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." - Ken
Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,
1977

"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn
better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." - A Yale University
management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing
reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal
Express Corp.)

"I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not
Gary Cooper." - Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading
role in"Gone With The Wind."

"A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports
say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you
make." - Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields'
Cookies.

"If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The
literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." -
Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3M
"Post-It" Notepads.

"So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing,
even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about
funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our
salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we
went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You
haven't got through college yet.'" - Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve
Jobs on attempts to get Atari and H-P interested in his and Steve
Wozniak's personal computer.

"You want to have consistent and uniform muscle development across all
of your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You
just have to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable
condition of weight training." - Response to Arthur Jones, who solved
the "unsolvable" problem by inventing Nautilus.

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

==
There is widespread suppression of natural cancer therapies, and persecution of
successful therapists. The undisputed leader in this field is the USA, and
other governments and medical authorities happily follow the US example.

The rationale for this suppression is the claim that natural cancer therapies
have not been scientifically proven to be effective, and such treatment, even
if harmless, would delay the more effective conventional cancer treatment. This
argument would be laughable if it were not so tragic for millions of sufferers.

Nevertheless, one part of this argument is true. Natural therapies are not
scientifically proven to give better results than conventional treatment.
Medical authorities, of course, control all research funds and facilities, and
nothing is given to natural therapists to prove their case. When conventional
medical institutions investigated natural remedies, it was done in such a way
that a negative outcome was guaranteed.

This happened, for instance with laetrile. Thousands of patients and various
scientific studies have shown it to be effective. The official trials by the US
Federal Drug Administration (FDA), which had banned laetrile even before the
trials had begun, were declared negative. The initial tests actually were
positive until a known therapy resistant strain of tumors was used. Even
insiders charged that these tests had been rigged to make sure that they
failed.

It was similar with the official vitamin C trial. Natural therapists know that
high dosages must be continued more or less indefinitely and that it is
extremely dangerous to stop treatment abruptly. In this decisive official trial
10g daily was given to 'terminal' patients for two months and then stopped
abruptly. No patient died during treatment but the high rate of death after the
treatment was stopped was seen as proof that the treatment had failed.

However, natural therapists do not rely on individual remedies. Commonly they
use a holistic program, including cleansing, diet, herbal and nutritional
remedies, as well as emotional and mind therapies. Conventional medical
researchers are completely ignorant in this area; even if they wanted to, they
would not be able to test holistic cancer therapies. Only holistic cancer
therapists are qualified to do so. Yet instead of receiving any resources to
proof their methods, they have been ruthlessly persecuted for the last hundred
years.

The medical profession had an excellent chance to properly investigate
nutritional cancer therapy when a US Senate Committee moved strongly to provide
extensive funds for research of the treatment used by Dr Gerson because
Senators were so impressed with his results.

However, the American Medical Association lobbied so strongly against research
into nutritional cancer therapies that the move was defeated in the Senate,
although by only four votes.

Albert Schweitzer wrote of the man the AMA regarded as a quack: 'I see in him
(Dr Gerson) one of the most eminent geniuses in the history of medicine' and,
'A medical genius who walked among us.'

I am sure history will show eventually who the real cancer quacks were. Because
of such influential support Gerson was not dragged before the courts like other
successful cancer therapists, but the Gerson clinic had to be moved to Mexico
to escape the pressure.

Royal Ray Rife fared even worse. He invented a powerful microscope that enabled
him to see the virus form of a cancer microbe that he then succeeded in
destroying with a specific electro magnetic frequency. Initially he had the
support of the AMA, University departments and the prestigious Franklin
Institute and Smithsonian Institution and many individual doctors reported good
results.

Cancer apparently could be reliably cured. But this caused a sudden change of
mind of the AMA. The Rife instruments everywhere were destroyed; Rife had to
flee while an associate who had carried on after the ban spent three years in
jail.

The Rife saga unfolded during the 1930's and 40's but is currently restaged
with the persecution of Gaston Naessens. He, too, invented a powerful
microscope to observe the effect of treatments on the cancer microbe. From this
he developed a remedy, called 714X, which is injected into a lymph node. His
fame for curing leukemia spread so rapidly in the 1960's that even the more
tolerant French authorities felt obliged to put him on trial for practicing
medicine without a license.

Naessens fled to Canada where he again became famous for his cancer cure.
Despite strong support from influential circles Naessens had to face new court
trials in Canada in the 80s for practicing medicine without a license (Problems
for Naessens have since ceased with recognition of the central chemical
preparation in his therapy - Trimethyl-bicyclo-nitraminoheptane Chloride or
714X - by Health Canada under its Canadian Drug Emergency Program). He
reportedly has helped to cure more than a thousand patients with advanced
cancer and AIDS.

I may add that 'practicing medicine without a license' does not mean that these
people pretended to be medical doctors, but rather that curing cancer in these
countries is legal only for licensed medical practitioners. Bad luck for the
patients of these licensed doctors that they do not know how to do it.

However, there are some outstanding doctors who know what to do but then are
not allowed to do it. Only methods approved by the conventional medical
associations may be used, otherwise a doctor may lose the license to practice.

This happened to the Danish doctor Kristine Nolfi. She had cured her own cancer
with a hundred percent vegetarian and organic raw food diet. Then she helped
her patients in the same way. Her fame spread throughout Scandinavia. Twice she
was dragged before the courts and was lucky only to lose her license.

Dr Issels was the most successful cancer therapist in Germany. He was the first
to have cancer patients replace their amalgam fillings and remove dead and
infected teeth. Basically he used the Gerson diet. The medical association took
him to court for using unauthorized therapies and he received a suspended jail
sentence.

Wilhem Reich was not so lucky. Earlier he had been a leading psychiatrist and
was regarded as the heir to Sigmund Freud's position. However, he fell into
disgrace when he published his sexual theories, especially when he linked
suppressed sexual energies with cancer.

In trying to escape persecution he immigrated to the USA. He experimented with
bio-energy collectors or orgone accumulators and also used a powerful
microscope to demonstrate that cancer cells and cancer microbes were killed by
this orgone energy.

Reich, like Rife and Naessens, made his observations using live tissue, while
conventional microbiologists only use dead and stained specimens. Therefore,
they could not see what Reich and the others saw and they denied that it
existed. Reich published successful results of 15 cases of 'terminal' cancer,
which alerted the FDA.

Reich declined to defend himself, saying that a court was not the place to
evaluate scientific research. This error of judgment landed him in Federal jail
where he eventually died. All his equipment was destroyed and his books and
writing officially burned - six tons of his published works, in fact. That was
in 1957

Dinshah Ghadiali was the pioneer of color therapy in the USA. Despite much
support from doctors and countless patients for the effectiveness of his
treatment with cancer and other diseases, he received many large fines and jail
sentences. His stock of spectrochrome projectors was destroyed and his books
and other writings officially burned. Radionics practitioners in the US had a
similar fate with equipment destroyed and Ruth Drown jailed.

In the beginning of this century a leading American doctor wrote that most
cases of cancer he saw had been operated on or radiated and the cancer had
returned worse than before. However, in those without previous medical
treatment he claimed a cure rate of 95% by using homoeopathic remedies.
Homoeopathy was speedily outlawed in the USA.

William F Koch was probably the most famous medical cancer therapist in the US
and widely respected in influential circles. His homoeopathic oxidation
catalyst was used worldwide but banned in the US. Six hundred doctors came to
his court trial to testify on his behalf and to report the many thousands of
patients that they had cured with his method. He had to be acquitted but tired
of constant persecution he immigrated to Brazil immediately after the trial in
1953.

Jason Winters cured himself of cancer with various herbs that he started
selling. He had to move to the Bahamas to escape the FDA but was hassled even
there.

Harry Hoxsey was the most famous herbal cancer therapist in the US. He had
clinics in various states, and thousands of satisfied patients attested to the
effectiveness of his herbs. Despite being arrested more often than any other
therapist for practicing medicine without a license, the courts confirmed the
therapeutic value of his herb mixture and even the AMA reluctantly admitted
that some of his remedies had merit.

Within a two-year period Harry Hoxsey was arrested about 200 times for
practicing medicine without a licence. The brother of the district attorney who
initiated these arrests had advanced cancer. Unbeknown to his lawyer brother,
he went to Hoxsey and was cured. On learning about this, the district attorney
quit his job and became the defence lawyer of Harry Hoxsey.

A federal report to Congress agreed with Hoxsey's allegations that the AMA, the
FDA and the National Cancer Institute had conspired to suppress a fair
investigation of his methods. Nevertheless, in 1963 he had to move his clinics
to Mexico to escape the mounting pressure.

Dr Johanna Budwig was a fat researcher with the German Government. She was
prevented from publishing her discovery of fatty residues from margarine in
soft tumors and lost her job.

Lawrence Burton, a biochemist, developed a method to effectively stimulate the
immune system of cancer patients. In 1977 he was forced to move his clinic to
the Bahamas. But even there the clinic was closed because his vaccines were
reportedly contaminated with the AIDS virus.

In 1985, a group of his cancer patients complained to the US Congress about the
clinic closure. A subsequent congressional hearing found that these damaging
reports, which originated from the National Cancer Institute and were spread by
the AMA, were false.

The persecution of natural cancer therapists and clinics continues unabated
into the 1990s. Commonly FDA agents raid clinics with drawn guns and confiscate
remedies and equipment used in natural therapies as well as patient files and
other documents. Even if therapists are not dragged before courts, many will be
bankrupted by these actions or simply give up.

The Burzynski cancer clinic operated with the approval of the FDA and was
rather successful using a cancer remedy derived from urine. Nevertheless the
clinic was raided several times and Dr Burzynski brought before four federal
grand juries. Each time he was acquitted. A committee of the US Congress is
investigating the FDA on charges of abusing the grand jury process in order to
harass and persecute Dr Burzynski.

Jimmy Keller had been cured himself with alternative therapies of advanced
metastatic cancer. For the next thirty years he developed a non-toxic program
for helping others with this disease. He had to retreat to Mexico where he was
practicing legally, but in 1991 he was kidnapped by the FBI, taken to Texas for
trial and put in jail. The charge was that a contact person in the United
States had told patients over the phone that he had an effective cancer
treatment.

Now that all successful cancer therapists have been eliminated from the USA a
grave-like silence covers the cancer battlefield.

This decisive victory of the US Cancer Establishment has served to secure the
position of conventional cancer therapy also in other western countries.
Holistic cancer therapists everywhere must be careful to operate on a small
scale and not appear to be successful to avoid being dragged before the courts
if a 'terminal' patient in their care should not make it.

How scientific do you now think our official cancer treatments are? Would it
not be more scientific to allow proper trials of holistic therapies rather than
trying to put successful cancer therapists in jail?

However, in the dark night of this dismal cancer saga there is also a glimmer
of light.

Dr Samuel Epstein, as the spokesman of a group of 65 US cancer researchers, has
just gone public to declare that the 'Cancer Establishment' has hoodwinked the
public into believing that progress has been made. He said cancer rates are
rising and little effort has been made to prevent this cancer epidemic that is
highly preventable.

Furthermore, following a directive of the US Senate, the cancer establishment
has now softened its strong opposition to natural cancer therapies, although
even in 1999 it still managed to get the "Father of Oxygen Therapies' Ed McCabe
into jail, and Dr Hulda Clark ('The Cure of All Cancers') arrested for
practicing medicine without a license. In addition, manufacturers and retailers
of electrical equipment and remedies for holistic cancer treatment continue to
be persecuted in most western ‘democracies’.

However, ultimately this situation is not really the fault of the vested
interests because it is in their nature to be selfish. The real responsibility
lies with governments, which should act in the interests of their citizens, and
not for the benefit of selfish interest groups.
 
We'll see - I'll package off Dr Gorski's (Orac) rebuttal to that chelation
doc and get his rebuttal on it.
And so on till we get to the end of it.
Anth

"Jan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
> >From: "Anth" [email protected]
> >Date: 5/16/2004 10:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <[email protected]>
> >
> >He seems to think it has - he posted a clear rebuttal of the chelation
> >studies disinformation.
> >Anth

>
> All dismissed by EOM.
>
> >"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 16, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
> >[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> > Why is he a 'quack'?
> >>
> >> He is selling a treatment for something thast it has never been shown

to
> >do
> >> any good, i.e. treat the underlying pathology.

>
> That is clearly lie, it has been shown over and over.
> >> > Anth
> >> >
> >> > "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > news:[email protected]...
> >> > > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
> >> > > >From: [email protected] (Jan)
> >> > > >Date: 5/15/2004 4:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >> > > >Message-id: <[email protected]>
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >http://drcranton.com/sham.htm
> >> > >
> >> > > ohhhh yeah...the quack cranston again..
> >> > >
> >> > > do you know any REPUTABLE docs Janny??
> >> > > hawki..

>
> The *gang* keeps asking the same questions over and over. Bad memories.
>
> Look it up.
> ==
> "..so many centuries after the Creation it is unlikely that anyone could
> find hitherto unknown lands of any value." - committee advising Ferdinand
> and Isabella regarding Columbus' proposal, 1486
>
> "I would sooner believe that two Yankee professors lied, than that stones
> fell from the sky" - Thomas Jefferson, 1807 on hearing an eyewitness
> report of falling meteorites.
>
> "Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil?
> You're crazy." - Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his
> project to drill for oil in 1859.
>
> "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." - Pierre
> Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872
>
> "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the
> intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." - Sir John Eric Ericksen,
> British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria
> 1873.
>
> "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered
> as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to
> us." - Western Union internal memo, 1876. I'VE HEARD ONE REPORT THAT THIS
> QUOTE WAS A HOAX, THE INTERNAL MEMO WAS A RECENT FORGERY
>
> "Such startling announcements as these should be deprecated as being
> unworthy of science and mischievious to to its true progress" - Sir
> William Siemens, 1880, on Edison's announcement of a sucessful light bulb.
>
> "We are probably nearing the limit of all we can know about astronomy." -
> Simon Newcomb, astronomer, 1888
>
> "Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time. Nobody
> will use it, ever." - Thomas Edison, 1889
>
> "Everything that can be invented has been invented." - Charles H.
> Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899. NO, THIS WAS A
> MISQUOTE, HE NEVER SAID THIS. SKEPTICAL INQUIRER EVEN DEBUNKED THIS.
>
>
> "The more important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have
> all been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the
> possibility of their ever being supplanted in consequence of new
> discoveries is exceedingly remote.... Our future discoveries must be
> looked for in the sixth place of decimals." - physicist Albert. A.
> Michelson, 1894
>
>
> "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin,
> president, Royal Society, 1895.
>
>
> "It is apparent to me that the possibilities of the aeroplane, which two
> or three years ago were thought to hold the solution to the [flying
> machine] problem, have been exhausted, and that we must turn elsewhere."
> - Thomas Edison, 1895
>
>
> "The demonstration that no possible combination of known substances, known
> forms of machinery, and known forms of force can be united in a
> practicable machine by which men shall fly for long distances through the
> air, seems to the writer as complete as it is possible for the
> demonstration of any physical fact to be." - astronomer S. Newcomb, 1906
>
>
> "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." - Marechal
> Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre.
>
> "Caterpillar landships are idiotic and useless. Those officers and men
> are wasting their time and are not pulling their proper weight in the war"
> - Fourth Lord of the British Admiralty, 1915, in regards to use of tanks
> in war.
>
> "Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and
> reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against
> which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily
> in high schools." - 1921 New York Times editorial about Robert
> Goddard's revolutionary rocket work.
>
> "The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who
> would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" - David
> Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the
> radio in the 1920s.
>
> "All a trick." "A Mere Mountebank." "Absolute swindler." "Doesn't know
> what he's about." "What's the good of it?" "What useful purpose will it
> serve?" - Members of Britain's Royal Society, 1926, after a demonstration
> of television.
>
> "This foolish idea of shooting at the moon is an example of the absurd
> lengths to which vicious specialisation will carry scientists."
> -A.W. Bickerton, physicist, NZ, 1926
>
> "Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" - H.M. Warner, Warner
> Brothers, 1927.
>
> "Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." -
> Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929.
>
> "There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be
> obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at
> will." -- Albert Einstein, 1932
>
> "The energy produced by the atom is a very poor kind of thing. Anyone who
> expects a source of power from the transformation of these atoms is
> talking moonshine" - Ernst Rutherford, 1933
>
> "The whole procedure [of shooting rockets into space]...presents
> difficulties of so fundamental a nature, that we are forced to dismiss the
> notion as essentially impracticable, in spite of the author's insistent
> appeal to put aside prejudice and to recollect the supposed impossibility
> of heavier-than-air flight before it was actually accomplished." Richard
> van der Riet Wooley, British astronomer, reviewing P.E. Cleator's "Rockets
> in Space", Nature, March 14, 1936
>
> "Space travel is utter bilge!" -Sir Richard Van Der Riet Wolley,

astronomer
>
> "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." - Thomas
> Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
>
> "Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." - Popular
> Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949
>
> "I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked
> with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a
> fad that won't last out the year." - The editor in charge of business
> books for Prentice Hall, 1957
>
> "Space travel is bunk" -Sir Harold Spencer Jones, Astronomer Royal of
> Britain, 1957, two weeks before the launch of Sputnik
>
> "There is practically no chance communications space satellites will be
> used to provide better telephone, telegraph, television, or radio
> service inside the Unided States." -T. Craven, FCC Commissioner, 1961
>
> "We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." -
> Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.
>
> "But what... is it good for?" - Engineer at the Advanced Computing
> Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
>
> "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." - Ken
> Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,
> 1977
>
> "The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn
> better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." - A Yale University
> management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing
> reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal
> Express Corp.)
>
> "I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not
> Gary Cooper." - Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading
> role in"Gone With The Wind."
>
> "A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports
> say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you
> make." - Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields'
> Cookies.
>
> "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The
> literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." -
> Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3M
> "Post-It" Notepads.
>
> "So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing,
> even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about
> funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our
> salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we
> went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You
> haven't got through college yet.'" - Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve
> Jobs on attempts to get Atari and H-P interested in his and Steve
> Wozniak's personal computer.
>
> "You want to have consistent and uniform muscle development across all
> of your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You
> just have to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable
> condition of weight training." - Response to Arthur Jones, who solved
> the "unsolvable" problem by inventing Nautilus.
>
> "640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981
>
> ==
> There is widespread suppression of natural cancer therapies, and

persecution of
> successful therapists. The undisputed leader in this field is the USA, and
> other governments and medical authorities happily follow the US example.
>
> The rationale for this suppression is the claim that natural cancer

therapies
> have not been scientifically proven to be effective, and such treatment,

even
> if harmless, would delay the more effective conventional cancer treatment.

This
> argument would be laughable if it were not so tragic for millions of

sufferers.
>
> Nevertheless, one part of this argument is true. Natural therapies are not
> scientifically proven to give better results than conventional treatment.
> Medical authorities, of course, control all research funds and facilities,

and
> nothing is given to natural therapists to prove their case. When

conventional
> medical institutions investigated natural remedies, it was done in such a

way
> that a negative outcome was guaranteed.
>
> This happened, for instance with laetrile. Thousands of patients and

various
> scientific studies have shown it to be effective. The official trials by

the US
> Federal Drug Administration (FDA), which had banned laetrile even before

the
> trials had begun, were declared negative. The initial tests actually were
> positive until a known therapy resistant strain of tumors was used. Even
> insiders charged that these tests had been rigged to make sure that they
> failed.
>
> It was similar with the official vitamin C trial. Natural therapists know

that
> high dosages must be continued more or less indefinitely and that it is
> extremely dangerous to stop treatment abruptly. In this decisive official

trial
> 10g daily was given to 'terminal' patients for two months and then stopped
> abruptly. No patient died during treatment but the high rate of death

after the
> treatment was stopped was seen as proof that the treatment had failed.
>
> However, natural therapists do not rely on individual remedies. Commonly

they
> use a holistic program, including cleansing, diet, herbal and nutritional
> remedies, as well as emotional and mind therapies. Conventional medical
> researchers are completely ignorant in this area; even if they wanted to,

they
> would not be able to test holistic cancer therapies. Only holistic cancer
> therapists are qualified to do so. Yet instead of receiving any resources

to
> proof their methods, they have been ruthlessly persecuted for the last

hundred
> years.
>
> The medical profession had an excellent chance to properly investigate
> nutritional cancer therapy when a US Senate Committee moved strongly to

provide
> extensive funds for research of the treatment used by Dr Gerson because
> Senators were so impressed with his results.
>
> However, the American Medical Association lobbied so strongly against

research
> into nutritional cancer therapies that the move was defeated in the

Senate,
> although by only four votes.
>
> Albert Schweitzer wrote of the man the AMA regarded as a quack: 'I see in

him
> (Dr Gerson) one of the most eminent geniuses in the history of medicine'

and,
> 'A medical genius who walked among us.'
>
> I am sure history will show eventually who the real cancer quacks were.

Because
> of such influential support Gerson was not dragged before the courts like

other
> successful cancer therapists, but the Gerson clinic had to be moved to

Mexico
> to escape the pressure.
>
> Royal Ray Rife fared even worse. He invented a powerful microscope that

enabled
> him to see the virus form of a cancer microbe that he then succeeded in
> destroying with a specific electro magnetic frequency. Initially he had

the
> support of the AMA, University departments and the prestigious Franklin
> Institute and Smithsonian Institution and many individual doctors reported

good
> results.
>
> Cancer apparently could be reliably cured. But this caused a sudden change

of
> mind of the AMA. The Rife instruments everywhere were destroyed; Rife had

to
> flee while an associate who had carried on after the ban spent three years

in
> jail.
>
> The Rife saga unfolded during the 1930's and 40's but is currently

restaged
> with the persecution of Gaston Naessens. He, too, invented a powerful
> microscope to observe the effect of treatments on the cancer microbe. From

this
> he developed a remedy, called 714X, which is injected into a lymph node.

His
> fame for curing leukemia spread so rapidly in the 1960's that even the

more
> tolerant French authorities felt obliged to put him on trial for

practicing
> medicine without a license.
>
> Naessens fled to Canada where he again became famous for his cancer cure.
> Despite strong support from influential circles Naessens had to face new

court
> trials in Canada in the 80s for practicing medicine without a license

(Problems
> for Naessens have since ceased with recognition of the central chemical
> preparation in his therapy - Trimethyl-bicyclo-nitraminoheptane Chloride

or
> 714X - by Health Canada under its Canadian Drug Emergency Program). He
> reportedly has helped to cure more than a thousand patients with advanced
> cancer and AIDS.
>
> I may add that 'practicing medicine without a license' does not mean that

these
> people pretended to be medical doctors, but rather that curing cancer in

these
> countries is legal only for licensed medical practitioners. Bad luck for

the
> patients of these licensed doctors that they do not know how to do it.
>
> However, there are some outstanding doctors who know what to do but then

are
> not allowed to do it. Only methods approved by the conventional medical
> associations may be used, otherwise a doctor may lose the license to

practice.
>
> This happened to the Danish doctor Kristine Nolfi. She had cured her own

cancer
> with a hundred percent vegetarian and organic raw food diet. Then she

helped
> her patients in the same way. Her fame spread throughout Scandinavia.

Twice she
> was dragged before the courts and was lucky only to lose her license.
>
> Dr Issels was the most successful cancer therapist in Germany. He was the

first
> to have cancer patients replace their amalgam fillings and remove dead and
> infected teeth. Basically he used the Gerson diet. The medical association

took
> him to court for using unauthorized therapies and he received a suspended

jail
> sentence.
>
> Wilhem Reich was not so lucky. Earlier he had been a leading psychiatrist

and
> was regarded as the heir to Sigmund Freud's position. However, he fell

into
> disgrace when he published his sexual theories, especially when he linked
> suppressed sexual energies with cancer.
>
> In trying to escape persecution he immigrated to the USA. He experimented

with
> bio-energy collectors or orgone accumulators and also used a powerful
> microscope to demonstrate that cancer cells and cancer microbes were

killed by
> this orgone energy.
>
> Reich, like Rife and Naessens, made his observations using live tissue,

while
> conventional microbiologists only use dead and stained specimens.

Therefore,
> they could not see what Reich and the others saw and they denied that it
> existed. Reich published successful results of 15 cases of 'terminal'

cancer,
> which alerted the FDA.
>
> Reich declined to defend himself, saying that a court was not the place to
> evaluate scientific research. This error of judgment landed him in Federal

jail
> where he eventually died. All his equipment was destroyed and his books

and
> writing officially burned - six tons of his published works, in fact. That

was
> in 1957
>
> Dinshah Ghadiali was the pioneer of color therapy in the USA. Despite much
> support from doctors and countless patients for the effectiveness of his
> treatment with cancer and other diseases, he received many large fines and

jail
> sentences. His stock of spectrochrome projectors was destroyed and his

books
> and other writings officially burned. Radionics practitioners in the US

had a
> similar fate with equipment destroyed and Ruth Drown jailed.
>
> In the beginning of this century a leading American doctor wrote that most
> cases of cancer he saw had been operated on or radiated and the cancer had
> returned worse than before. However, in those without previous medical
> treatment he claimed a cure rate of 95% by using homoeopathic remedies.
> Homoeopathy was speedily outlawed in the USA.
>
> William F Koch was probably the most famous medical cancer therapist in

the US
> and widely respected in influential circles. His homoeopathic oxidation
> catalyst was used worldwide but banned in the US. Six hundred doctors came

to
> his court trial to testify on his behalf and to report the many thousands

of
> patients that they had cured with his method. He had to be acquitted but

tired
> of constant persecution he immigrated to Brazil immediately after the

trial in
> 1953.
>
> Jason Winters cured himself of cancer with various herbs that he started
> selling. He had to move to the Bahamas to escape the FDA but was hassled

even
> there.
>
> Harry Hoxsey was the most famous herbal cancer therapist in the US. He had
> clinics in various states, and thousands of satisfied patients attested to

the
> effectiveness of his herbs. Despite being arrested more often than any

other
> therapist for practicing medicine without a license, the courts confirmed

the
> therapeutic value of his herb mixture and even the AMA reluctantly

admitted
> that some of his remedies had merit.
>
> Within a two-year period Harry Hoxsey was arrested about 200 times for
> practicing medicine without a licence. The brother of the district

attorney who
> initiated these arrests had advanced cancer. Unbeknown to his lawyer

brother,
> he went to Hoxsey and was cured. On learning about this, the district

attorney
> quit his job and became the defence lawyer of Harry Hoxsey.
>
> A federal report to Congress agreed with Hoxsey's allegations that the

AMA, the
> FDA and the National Cancer Institute had conspired to suppress a fair
> investigation of his methods. Nevertheless, in 1963 he had to move his

clinics
> to Mexico to escape the mounting pressure.
>
> Dr Johanna Budwig was a fat researcher with the German Government. She was
> prevented from publishing her discovery of fatty residues from margarine

in
> soft tumors and lost her job.
>
> Lawrence Burton, a biochemist, developed a method to effectively stimulate

the
> immune system of cancer patients. In 1977 he was forced to move his clinic

to
> the Bahamas. But even there the clinic was closed because his vaccines

were
> reportedly contaminated with the AIDS virus.
>
> In 1985, a group of his cancer patients complained to the US Congress

about the
> clinic closure. A subsequent congressional hearing found that these

damaging
> reports, which originated from the National Cancer Institute and were

spread by
> the AMA, were false.
>
> The persecution of natural cancer therapists and clinics continues

unabated
> into the 1990s. Commonly FDA agents raid clinics with drawn guns and

confiscate
> remedies and equipment used in natural therapies as well as patient files

and
> other documents. Even if therapists are not dragged before courts, many

will be
> bankrupted by these actions or simply give up.
>
> The Burzynski cancer clinic operated with the approval of the FDA and was
> rather successful using a cancer remedy derived from urine. Nevertheless

the
> clinic was raided several times and Dr Burzynski brought before four

federal
> grand juries. Each time he was acquitted. A committee of the US Congress

is
> investigating the FDA on charges of abusing the grand jury process in

order to
> harass and persecute Dr Burzynski.
>
> Jimmy Keller had been cured himself with alternative therapies of advanced
> metastatic cancer. For the next thirty years he developed a non-toxic

program
> for helping others with this disease. He had to retreat to Mexico where he

was
> practicing legally, but in 1991 he was kidnapped by the FBI, taken to

Texas for
> trial and put in jail. The charge was that a contact person in the United
> States had told patients over the phone that he had an effective cancer
> treatment.
>
> Now that all successful cancer therapists have been eliminated from the

USA a
> grave-like silence covers the cancer battlefield.
>
> This decisive victory of the US Cancer Establishment has served to secure

the
> position of conventional cancer therapy also in other western countries.
> Holistic cancer therapists everywhere must be careful to operate on a

small
> scale and not appear to be successful to avoid being dragged before the

courts
> if a 'terminal' patient in their care should not make it.
>
> How scientific do you now think our official cancer treatments are? Would

it
> not be more scientific to allow proper trials of holistic therapies rather

than
> trying to put successful cancer therapists in jail?
>
> However, in the dark night of this dismal cancer saga there is also a

glimmer
> of light.
>
> Dr Samuel Epstein, as the spokesman of a group of 65 US cancer

researchers, has
> just gone public to declare that the 'Cancer Establishment' has hoodwinked

the
> public into believing that progress has been made. He said cancer rates

are
> rising and little effort has been made to prevent this cancer epidemic

that is
> highly preventable.
>
> Furthermore, following a directive of the US Senate, the cancer

establishment
> has now softened its strong opposition to natural cancer therapies,

although
> even in 1999 it still managed to get the "Father of Oxygen Therapies' Ed

McCabe
> into jail, and Dr Hulda Clark ('The Cure of All Cancers') arrested for
> practicing medicine without a license. In addition, manufacturers and

retailers
> of electrical equipment and remedies for holistic cancer treatment

continue to
> be persecuted in most western 'democracies'.
>
> However, ultimately this situation is not really the fault of the vested
> interests because it is in their nature to be selfish. The real

responsibility
> lies with governments, which should act in the interests of their

citizens, and
> not for the benefit of selfish interest groups.
>
>
 
>Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>From: [email protected] (Jan)
>Date: 5/16/2004 1:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>


>>He seems to think it has - he posted a clear rebuttal of the chelation
>>studies disinformation.
>>Anth


>All dismissed by EOM.
>


still waiting for the angiographic proof....why is that so hard to produce???

oh right....they can't


hawki.....
 
>http://drcranton.com/sham.htm

AMA PUBLISHES JUNK SCIENCE IN
ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT CHELATION

In January, 2002, the American Medical Association published a

***deceptively worded and blatantly unscientific study****

alleging to disprove benefit from EDTA chelation as a treatment for heart
disease—the so-called Calgary PATCH study.

****(1) Nowhere do they actually claim to have disproven chelation, although
that is implied and that is the way many readers will interpret it***

.. They merely state that they found, “no evidence to support a beneficial
effect.” In their final sentence they reiterate that conclusion: “Larger
trials with a broader range of patients will be needed to assess the safety and
impact of EDTA chelation therapy on clinical event rates.” That conclusion is
not surprising, since a careful reading of the published report clearly shows
that this study was too small, too flawed, and too poorly designed in many ways
to produce anything of significance, beneficial or otherwise. It is puzzling
that the American Medical Association, with its reputation for scientific
integrity to uphold, would publish such pseudoscience in its flagship journal.

***The study seems carefully designed as an attempt to disprove chelation from
the outset.***

***It is not possible to study a treatment for angina in patients who do not
have angina.****

***Twice as many patients were placed in the EDTA-treated group who had
previously experienced myocardial infarctions.***

***The exercise protocol was bizarre. They failed to screen for reproducibility
as a condition for entry. Accepted scientific guidelines were ignored. The
primary endpoint was not clearly defined. The type of electrocardiographic
ST-depression used as an endpoint is now considered non-specific and is no
longer accepted as diagnostic for coronary disease.*****

>http://drcranton.com/chelation/chelationcritics.htm
>>
>> CHELATION CRITICS PUBLISH
>> ***DECEPTIVE DATA***


>http://drcranton.com/chelation/rebuttal.htm
>>
>>
>> BUSTING THE QUACKBUSTERS
>> REBUTTAL TO "QUACKWATCH" WEBSITE OPPOSING CHELATION THERAPY:


This is an excellent example of the EVILS of organized medicine, who don't give
a hang if people gp through bypassess.

All who defend this evil are despicable liars.

Jan
 
>Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>From: [email protected] (David Wright)
>Date: 5/16/2004 10:56 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Orac <[email protected]> wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] (Jan) wrote:
>>>
>>> http://drcranton.com/sham.htm
>>>
>>> AMA PUBLISHES JUNK SCIENCE IN
>>> ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT CHELATION
>>>
>>> http://drcranton.com/chelation/chelationcritics.htm
>>>
>>> CHELATION CRITICS PUBLISH
>>> ***DECEPTIVE DATA***
>>>
>>> http://drcranton.com/chelation/rebuttal.htm
>>>
>>> BUSTING THE QUACKBUSTERS
>>> REBUTTAL TO "QUACKWATCH" WEBSITE OPPOSING CHELATION THERAPY:

>>
>>Of course he wouldn't like what has been said; if people started
>>listening to the actual evidence for (or more correctly, the lack of
>>evidence for) chelation, it would be bad for his business.

>
>Orac, Orac, Orac. Don't you know that all alternative practitioners
>are selfless saints for whom the money is irrelevant? It's only you
>greedy MDs who are motivated by cash. Geez, I can see you just
>haven't been paying attention here.


Orac and anyone who can't see the evils or organized medicine are very
dishonest.

Your excuses do nothing but show this dishonesty.

Jan
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:

> (What is a well designed study when the studies are lies - they show one
> thing in their data and then post something else?)


And what specific studies are you referring to?

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
>Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>From: "Anth" [email protected]
>Date: 5/16/2004 10:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>ok cool I'd like to see.
>Anth
>
>"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:eek:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > "Hawki63" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> > > >Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>> > > >From: "Anth" [email protected]
>> > > >Date: 5/15/2004 6:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> > > >Message-id: <G6mdnUNNXKFkIjvd4p2dnA@ni
>> > >
>> > > >Why is he a 'quack'?
>> > > >Anth
>> > >
>> > > ahhhh...cuz his website sells things???
>> >
>> >
>> > (Does nothing to refute the points he made about the chelation studies)

>>
>> I seem to recall having done so in the past. If I can find my original
>> posting I'll repost it. Otherwise, I don't know if it's worth my effort
>> to do it again.


What a pity that so many are having bypasses when it could be avoided.

Jan
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (David Wright) wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Orac <[email protected]> wrote:
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] (Jan) wrote:
> >>
> >> http://drcranton.com/sham.htm
> >>
> >> AMA PUBLISHES JUNK SCIENCE IN
> >> ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT CHELATION
> >>
> >> http://drcranton.com/chelation/chelationcritics.htm
> >>
> >> CHELATION CRITICS PUBLISH
> >> ***DECEPTIVE DATA***
> >>
> >> http://drcranton.com/chelation/rebuttal.htm
> >>
> >> BUSTING THE QUACKBUSTERS
> >> REBUTTAL TO "QUACKWATCH" WEBSITE OPPOSING CHELATION THERAPY:

> >
> >Of course he wouldn't like what has been said; if people started
> >listening to the actual evidence for (or more correctly, the lack of
> >evidence for) chelation, it would be bad for his business.

>
> Orac, Orac, Orac. Don't you know that all alternative practitioners
> are selfless saints for whom the money is irrelevant? It's only you
> greedy MDs who are motivated by cash. Geez, I can see you just
> haven't been paying attention here.


OK, OK, you're right. I forgot. Although ALL conventional doctors don't
care about their patients and are only concerned about the bottom line,
there is no such thing as a greedy alternative medicine practitioner,
and alt-med practitioners NEVER, EVER take into consideration the bottom
line when making recommendations. We know this is true, after all,
because that's what alties like Jan tell us.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
(The 5 studies you quote for chelation)
Anth

"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > (What is a well designed study when the studies are lies - they show one
> > thing in their data and then post something else?)

>
> And what specific studies are you referring to?
>
> --
> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
> |
> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
> | inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:

> (The 5 studies you quote for chelation)


Oh, really? Then perhaps you can tell us exactly why you think these
studies showed something different than what the authors concluded. Use
as much detail as necessary and try to use the primary studies
themselves, NOT some synthesis of them or summary of them on altie or
chelationist websites.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Jan) wrote:

> >http://drcranton.com/sham.htm

>
> AMA PUBLISHES JUNK SCIENCE IN
> ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT CHELATION
>
> In January, 2002, the American Medical Association published a
>
> ***deceptively worded and blatantly unscientific study****
>
> alleging to disprove benefit from EDTA chelation as a treatment for heart
> disease—the so-called Calgary PATCH study.
>
> ****(1) Nowhere do they actually claim to have disproven chelation, although
> that is implied and that is the way many readers will interpret it***


Strawman. Very few scientific studies EVER claim to have "disproven" any
medical treatment. What they conclude is one of two things: Either there
was a detectable treatment effect over placebo or there was not. There
is no deception.


> . They merely state that they found, “no evidence to support a beneficial
> effect.”


So what? This means that they failed to find an effect above that of a
placebo.



>In their final sentence they reiterate that conclusion: “Larger
> trials with a broader range of patients will be needed to assess the safety
> and
> impact of EDTA chelation therapy on clinical event rates.


Practically EVERY clinical trial that fails to find a treatment effect
(except for the very largest trials, which are powered to detect very
small differences) concludes with a statement along such lines! All it
means is that the study was not powered to find small effects. However,
the fact that it did not find a big effect certainly suggests that the
claims of chelationists are inflated.

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
I showed my argument referencing a while back about the chelation study and
ascorbate how both groups experienced significant effects which you would
attribute to placebo.
How's about you post your rebuttal to what this doctor quotes.
(Keep in mind that I will post this information off to this chelation doctor
and ask him his opinion on it, and repeat)
I suspect you won't even take me up on this, I think you are bluffing.
Anth

"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > (The 5 studies you quote for chelation)

>
> Oh, really? Then perhaps you can tell us exactly why you think these
> studies showed something different than what the authors concluded. Use
> as much detail as necessary and try to use the primary studies
> themselves, NOT some synthesis of them or summary of them on altie or
> chelationist websites.
>
> --
> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
> |
> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
> | inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I showed my argument referencing a while back about the chelation study and
> ascorbate how both groups experienced significant effects which you would
> attribute to placebo.
> How's about you post your rebuttal to what this doctor quotes.
> (Keep in mind that I will post this information off to this chelation doctor
> and ask him his opinion on it, and repeat)
> I suspect you won't even take me up on this, I think you are bluffing.


You are laboring under the mistaken impression that I give a rodent's
posterior what you think about me. Besides, if I wanted to get into a
pissing contest with this chelation doctor, I'd write him directly and
cut out the middleman. (Of course, one wonders if he has any more time
than I for getting into prolonged arguments with someone he doesn't
know; somehow I doubt it. It's not entirely obvious just who's bluffing
here...) However, if I have time next weekend, perhaps I'll take you up
on it. It's Sunday night now, and I won't have time for prolonged
compositions during this week.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
>Subject: Re: Heart Patients Sought for Alternative Therapy
>From: "Anth" [email protected]
>Date: 5/16/2004 3:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>I showed my argument referencing a while back about the chelation study and
>ascorbate how both groups experienced significant effects which you would
>attribute to placebo.
>How's about you post your rebuttal to what this doctor quotes.
>(Keep in mind that I will post this information off to this chelation doctor
>and ask him his opinion on it, and repeat)
>I suspect you won't even take me up on this, I think you are bluffing.
>Anth


Orac is full of hot air, all mouth, little action.

Jan


>"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:eek:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > (The 5 studies you quote for chelation)

>>
>> Oh, really? Then perhaps you can tell us exactly why you think these
>> studies showed something different than what the authors concluded. Use
>> as much detail as necessary and try to use the primary studies
>> themselves, NOT some synthesis of them or summary of them on altie or
>> chelationist websites.
>>
>> --
>> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
>> |
>> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
>> | inconvenience me with questions?"

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
 
Cool ok I'll wait for your posted rebuttal.
Anth

"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I showed my argument referencing a while back about the chelation study

and
> > ascorbate how both groups experienced significant effects which you

would
> > attribute to placebo.
> > How's about you post your rebuttal to what this doctor quotes.
> > (Keep in mind that I will post this information off to this chelation

doctor
> > and ask him his opinion on it, and repeat)
> > I suspect you won't even take me up on this, I think you are bluffing.

>
> You are laboring under the mistaken impression that I give a rodent's
> posterior what you think about me. Besides, if I wanted to get into a
> pissing contest with this chelation doctor, I'd write him directly and
> cut out the middleman. (Of course, one wonders if he has any more time
> than I for getting into prolonged arguments with someone he doesn't
> know; somehow I doubt it. It's not entirely obvious just who's bluffing
> here...) However, if I have time next weekend, perhaps I'll take you up
> on it. It's Sunday night now, and I won't have time for prolonged
> compositions during this week.
>
> --
> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
> |
> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
> | inconvenience me with questions?"