Heart Rate Or Power

[flup]

So, where is the data that, on average, incorporating a PM into the training results in better performance improvement? How is a person supposed to know before they purchase one whether they will be one of those who see improvement or one who will see more harm than good?

There is no data like that, like there is no data about using a stopwatch to improve performances. A powermeter explains things, but an experienced rider can get great results without. It might tell you when you did something wrong.

I think a rider, starting to use a powermeter, should initially continue his training like before and look for powerreadings that are different from your RPE, HR etc and look for an explanation.
Otherwise hire a coach who is experienced in these files as learning it all by yourself might be fascinating but is also time consuming (like posting on a forum).
Time is better spend on your bike.

 

[Alex Simmons]

How is a person supposed to know before they purchase one whether they will be one of those who see improvement or one who will see more harm than good?

They could hire one off me, or Bob Tobin in the UK, and try it out for a while

 

[flup]

Why bother to test anyone? How do you find the time to wade through all that data on your athletes?

Maybe your athlete was new to the sport, never really trained on a bike. After a year of smart training (with or without Powercranks) he might get similar results.
Although an untrained having a 'FTP' of 274 is not bad.
Was his powermeter calibrated correctly?

 

[Fday]

There is no data like that, like there is no data about using a stopwatch to improve performances. A powermeter explains things, but an experienced rider can get great results without. It might tell you when you did something wrong.

I think a rider, starting to use a powermeter, should initially continue his training like before and look for powerreadings that are different from your RPE, HR etc and look for an explanation.
Otherwise hire a coach who is experienced in these files as learning it all by yourself might be fascinating but is also time consuming (like posting on a forum).
Time is better spend on your bike.

Well, if one has to hire a coach to help them interpret a PM, why couldn't one just hire a coach to help them with their overall training, one who doesn't require athletes to have a PM, and save that money?

 

[Fday]

Maybe your athlete was new to the sport, never really trained on a bike. After a year of smart training (with or without Powercranks) he might get similar results.
Although an untrained having a 'FTP' of 274 is not bad.
Was his powermeter calibrated correctly?

He was an MIT student at the time (and self described data nerd) so I suspect his PM was calibrated correctly. But, one never knows for sure does one?

 

[Alex Simmons]

Can you (and many others) explain how you deduce, from a powerfile, the physiological demands of a rider riding at 300W on a track at sealevel vs the same rider, same poweroutput on a track at high altitude?

Yes, I can.
Will I here? No.
You can do the research, it's already been plenty discussed on various power training forums.

Is riding a 2 minute hillclimb in the afternoon at 35°C without warming-up (just jump on the bike) the same (in a physiological way) as doing this climb at the same poweroutput at 15°C after a good warming-up?

A power meter doesn't have a little icon that flashes "you're an idiot" before doing something stupid.

But if you must come up with a silly example, the power meter file will help you understand the actual difference in power delivery through two such efforts and be able to compare what's going on. Indeed one could deduce (from prior knowledge of one's maximal accumulated oxygen deficit from examining power meter files) what is actually going on, physiologically speaking and compare it to a MAOD analysis from two such rides.

But that is a moot point. You sure won't garner any information of value from a HRM in such circumstances.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Well, if one has to hire a coach to help them interpret a PM, why couldn't one just hire a coach to help them with their overall training, one who doesn't require athletes to have a PM, and save that money?

Heaven forbid one would want (two-way) accountability in an athlete-coach relationship. Nothing aids that process like a power meter does.

 

[Alex Simmons]

He was an MIT student at the time (and self described data nerd) so I suspect his PM was calibrated correctly. But, one never knows for sure does one?

I do. That's because I check the calibration. Everyone should. Only takes a few minutes. Even for an MIT student.

 

[Alex Simmons]

So it all comes down to making the right conclusions otherwise a powermeter could do more harm than good.

That's a knowledge and psychological issue, not a power meter issue per se.

One can make even worse mistakes without having the information on performance on a day to day basis. Many riders are intuitively good at knowing their bodies, as well as how hard is "hard enough", but many are not.


Gas spectrometers are great tools, but just because I don't know how to use one, or interpret the information provided, isn't a reason to say they are no good for the purpose of improving our understanding of chemical composition.

 

[flup]

Yes, I can.
You can do the research, it's already been plenty discussed on various power training forums.

So you can deduce the difference in fysiological demands from 2 files presenting solely the same average power?
Can you give me a link to (one of) these discussions?
Have you taken a patent on this formula?

 

[flup]

A power meter doesn't have a little icon that flashes "you're an idiot" before doing something stupid.

But if you must come up with a silly example, the power meter file will help you understand the actual difference in power delivery through two such efforts and be able to compare what's going on. Indeed one could deduce (from prior knowledge of one's maximal accumulated oxygen deficit from examining power meter files) what is actually going on, physiologically speaking and compare it to a MAOD analysis from two such rides.

But that is a moot point. You sure won't garner any information of value from a HRM in such circumstances.

Am I stupid for giving this example or is it the man I had in mind, living at the foot of a hill and starting every ride with this climb?
The HR-file presented with the poweroutput in my postride analysis will tell me how well I was prepared to the effort.

 

[flup]

I do. That's because I check the calibration. Everyone should. Only takes a few minutes. Even for an MIT student.

How can you be sure that every file a client mails you is registred by a well calibrated powermeter?

 

[cyclissimo]

So you can deduce the difference in fysiological demands from 2 files presenting solely the same average power? ...

I don't recall Alex or anyone else making the claim that the underlying physiology could be explained soley by average power, but it definitely can be extracted from the recorded power file, particularly when aided by some a priori knowledge (such as MAP, FTP and AWC for the rider).

 

[fergie]

I think a rider, starting to use a powermeter, should initially continue his training like before and look for powerreadings that are different from your RPE, HR etc and look for an explanation.
Otherwise hire a coach who is experienced in these files as learning it all by yourself might be fascinating but is also time consuming (like posting on a forum).
Time is better spend on your bike.

One of Frank's many errors is that he thinks training with a power meter is a method in itself. A power meter is a measure of training. If the goal is to ride a hill faster then you ride hills faster in training. Now what measure is better than watts to know if you are succeeding at this goal or failing. Certainly not HR, cadence or lactate. Speed, well maybe, but we have a climb here where wind can affect times by up to 2 mins. Ot a local TT course where wind and temperature can influence times by about 90sec.

Tracking the rather large amounts of data is amazingly simple. As I said take a trip to TrainingPeaks web site and check it out.

 

[flup]

I don't recall Alex or anyone else making the claim that the underlying physiology could be explained soley by average power, but it definitely can be extracted from the recorded power file, particularly when aided by some a priori knowledge (such as MAP, FTP and AWC for the rider).

Well that is what he claimed in post 66.
Maybe you could explain me how to extract the difference in fysiological demands from the powerfiles from the 2 performances mentioned in that quote?

 

[flup]

One of Frank's many errors is that he thinks training with a power meter is a method in itself. A power meter is a measure of training. If the goal is to ride a hill faster then you ride hills faster in training. Now what measure is better than watts to know if you are succeeding at this goal or failing. Certainly not HR, cadence or lactate. Speed, well maybe, but we have a climb here where wind can affect times by up to 2 mins. Ot a local TT course where wind and temperature can influence times by about 90sec.

Tracking the rather large amounts of data is amazingly simple. As I said take a trip to TrainingPeaks web site and check it out.

Fergie, you know very well that Frank is aware of the benefits of a powermeter, he just likes pulling peoples legg on a powermeterforum because he knows that it is impossible to attribute improvements in performance to a device these people are fascinated about

 

[flup]

A power meter is a measure of training. If the goal is to ride a hill faster then you ride hills faster in training. Now what measure is better than watts to know if you are succeeding at this goal or failing. Certainly not HR, cadence or lactate. Speed, well maybe, but we have a climb here where wind can affect times by up to 2 mins. Ot a local TT course where wind and temperature can influence times by about 90sec.

I do know Trainingpeaks as I used WKO for about 5 years.
All I wanted to say is that I do not believe in monitoring solely power.
As I said before, I do not think there exists an individual 'fixed threshold power'.
The human body is constantly adapting to fluctuations in stress.
When I ride the trainer at 100W and then increase the resistance to 270W, the first minute at 270W will feel harder than the 4th minute at 270W. The powerfile will not give you any ewplanation about this phenomenon, while monitoring HR (together with power) will.

 

[cyclissimo]

Well that is what he claimed in post 66....

Apparently your reading skills could use some work, here's what Alex said in post 66:

...But if you must come up with a silly example, the power meter file will help you understand the actual difference in power delivery through two such efforts...

Nowhere did he claim to be able to derive underlying physiological processes(what exactly is fysiological?) from average power data

 

[Fday]

Heaven forbid one would want (two-way) accountability in an athlete-coach relationship. Nothing aids that process like a power meter does.

If I were a coach I would want my athletes to have a PM, not necessarily because I thought I could give them better advice with it but because I would know if they were doing what I was asking of them if it were a long-term relationship. I see nothing wrong with this. However, not all coaches, not even all elite coaches, depend on the PM for feedback and my point is there is no evidence that they are not as good as they could be for eschewing this tool.

 

[flup]

Apparently your reading skills could use some work, here's what Alex said in post 66:Nowhere did he claim to be able to derive underlying physiological processes(what exactly is fysiological?) from average power data

If you would just scroll up to 'Yes I can' (scrolling skills?) or get a wider screen.

I do apologize for not spelling correct (in my language it is spelled with 'f')