Heat resistant tubular glue?



Ted Bennett wrote:
> Sheldon Brown sums it up well on http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html :
>
> "Tubulars are considerably more expensive than clinchers of comparable
> performance.
>
> Tubulars are very much harder to repair once punctured. Most people
> just throw them away.
>
> You need to carry a complete spare tubular in case you get a flat.
> This negates the weight advantage over clinchers, unless you have a team
> car following you with spare wheels.
>
> If you replace a tubular on the road, you cannot corner safely at high
> speeds until you go home and re-glue the tire. For safe high-speed
> cornering, the glue needs to dry for at least several hours.
>
> Tubulars have higher rolling resistance than the best clinchers.
>
> Tubulars are rarely as true and round as clinchers.
>
> Improperly glued tubulars can roll off the rim. This almost always
> causes a serious crash."


As someone who actually rides tubulars, please allow me to state some
facts:
Tubular tires are far less prone to pinch flats, regardless of what
others here have claimed.
Any tubular has a far greater range of acceptable inflation pressures,
without risking pinch flats or blowing off the rim.
A flatted tubular will stay on the rim, which is both safer and more
advantageous in a race or where it is simply not convenient to stop.
A tubular is much faster and easier to change on the road. Your riding
buddies will appreciate this.
Tubular rims are less prone to impact damage because they don't have
bead edges to get dinged if you hit a pothole.
Tubular rim extrusions have a higher strength-to-weight ratio than
comparable clincher rims (see above).

There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. A properly glued
tubular will not roll off the rim, and a pre-glued spare will stay on
the rim under normal circumstances if you do have to change it on the
road. The vast majority of cyclists do not ride in high mountains on a
regular basis where melting glue would ever be an issue. Also, tubulars
can be professionally repaired for $16 by TireAlert! if you can't do it
yourself. This is more than a clincher inner tube, but it's not like
you have to throw the tire away.

I weigh 180 lbs. I have several pairs of tubular wheels. My favorite
pair are built with Mavic GL330 rims (354 grams), 15g spokes, and
700x24C Clement Paris-Roubaix tires (269 grams). These wheels are
light, comfortable, and durable. I buy the tires for only $43 each (I
have a friend, but similar discounts are available if you buy tires
mail-order from the UK).
 
Peter Chisholm writes:

>> I don't believe so. If your tires are bottoming on roads, then you
>> are close to damaging rims and getting pinch flats anyway. I think
>> you need a suspension bicycle if the roads are that bad. Running
>> small soft tires is not a reasonable solution as I see it. I
>> suspect you gained some weight since you last rode tubulars.


> Hmmm. I am 200 pounds...have NEVER had a pinch flat on tubies, I use
> 95psi...


I wouldn't make much hay on that. I have riding companions that
weigh 150 lbs who got pinch flats with tubulars. I can't imagine to
what roads you limit your rides but occasional pinch flats are a fact
of bicycling for active riders. That you haven't had heating problems
tells me that you haven't descended any twisty roads that require
constant braking, especially steep dirt roads, where high cornering
speeds are out of the question.

> Don't ask Jobst for any advise about tubulars. He hates them and
> those that use them. He hasn't seen or used a tubular for as long as
> I have been using them. His knowledge is not current, on these and
> other subjects.


You say that as though something about tubulars is different today
than when they were the mainstream of tires used by bikies. Can you
explain what that might be and how it prevents pinch flats or rim
heating? I hear this mantra of "tubulars are better today" without
supporting evidence.

As I see it, looking at tubulars that come across my way, they are no
easier to repair, some of them essentially not made to be repaired and
rim glues, as was posted here not long ago are no better than those of
yore, especailly Fastack.

Gluing tires on rims has not changed:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/mounting-tubulars.html

Jobst Brandt
 
a shy person writes:

>> I am considering going back to tubulars, but one of the issues that
>> was most problematic for me using them in the past was the glue
>> melting during heavy braking. I weigh 95-100 kg so it doesn't take
>> too much breaking to get generate lots of heat, and the braking
>> forces are high too, so the tires slide around on the rim a
>> lot. This is not good. I used 3M Fast Tack for a while but it
>> seemed to kill the base tapes. I haven't had to use glue for many
>> years now.


> 3M is not a good choice for tubular glue. Despite Brandt's claims to
> the contrary, glue *does* make a difference in heat resistance, and
> unlike Brandt, I can point you to hard evidence to support my
> statement:


http://www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/bicycle/Part6.pdf

Reading this article I see a report by someone who has never don
this. Rolling a tire is not the hazard of heated rim glues but rather
tire creep around the rim. It was regular practice for riders to turn
their front wheel around to get the bunched up tire to redistribute
the other way when descending on roads that caused continual braking.

Failure occurred from the valve stem being ripped out of the tube, not
rolling the tire. Besides that the temperatures investigated never
got to the level that cause serious problems and those are above 100
degrees C.

> At 60oC Vittoria MastikOne has more bond strength than 3M at a
> normal operating temperature of half that. Also, the Vittoria glue
> reaches a bond strength in one hour that is approximately the same
> as 3M after 50 hours:


http://www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/bicycle/Part5.pdf

> Can temps get higher than 60oC in descents? Maybe. Can even
> Vittoria get hot enough in a descent to get it squirmy? Maybe. But
> the *facts* show that there is an important difference in heat
> resistance among tubular glues, and that at temperatures at which
> all other glues weaken significantly, Vittoria MastikOne stays
> stronger than most of the others were in the first place.


> I have no stake in Vittoria, BTW, but this is the definitive answer
> based on the body of research that exists at present.


That this report focuses on rolling tires laterally off the rim is a
glaring failure investigate the heated glue problem. Worse yet is the
assumption that this is a linear function of adhesion vs. temperature
with almost no data in the graph. This rings of so much "bench
racing". Don't bet your safety on this "research".

from:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance-tubular.html

# That tubular tires move on rims, and often wear through their base
# tapes where they bear on the glued rim, was known but that it made a
# significant difference in rolling resistance was not.

You'll not that rim glue turns dark grey with use as it abrades the
aluminum rim. In fact the base tape wears through the anodizing if
that surface is anodized. Non-anodized rims develope cloth pattern
more rapidly in the contact surface from base tape motion without
descending under hard braking.

Jobst Brandt
 
Peter Kidwell writes:

> I like running sprnts and tubs even though mending a puncture in a
> tub is a pain. I don't get many punctures because I fitt Flint
> catchers. I glue them with double sided tape and have never had a
> problem. I carry two spare tubs and one roll of double sided tape
> which does two tubs.


Ah yes, "tire savers", as they were known in some circles, were one of
those "tossing salt over the shoulder" quirks of bicycling, like
wiping tires. Among my riding companions the only thing they did was
to make obvious who had them on their bicycles when the roads were
wet, because the guy with tire savers was the rider with the dirtiest
legs. The number of flats had no apparent statistical difference.
The tire saver guys were there on Wednesday evenings at my weekly tire
patch sessions just like the others.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/wiping.html

Jobst Brandt
 
Mike Krueger wrote:
> ...
> A tubular is much faster and easier to change on the road. Your riding
> buddies will appreciate this....


Does water make a difference? If a rider with tubular tires has a flat
in the rain, it will be almost impossible to keep the portions of the
rim and tube that are glue covered dry, unless the rider is carrying a
tent or can find other covered shelter.

How does cold affect the bond when a tubular is replaced? Will the glue
be effective in below freezing temperatures?

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
 
[email protected] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> ...
> I wouldn't make much hay on that. I have riding companions that
> weigh 150 lbs who got pinch flats with tubulars. I can't imagine to
> what roads you limit your rides but occasional pinch flats are a fact
> of bicycling for active riders....


Maybe pinch flats are a fact of life for cyclists that use narrow
tires. I have not had any pinch flats, but then the narrowest tire I
use is 35-305 mm (and the widest are 53-406 and 53-559 mm).

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
 
Someone wrote:
> Mike Krueger wrote:
> > ...
> > A tubular is much faster and easier to change on the road. Your riding
> > buddies will appreciate this....

>
> Does water make a difference? If a rider with tubular tires has a flat
> in the rain, it will be almost impossible to keep the portions of the
> rim and tube that are glue covered dry, unless the rider is carrying a
> tent or can find other covered shelter.
>
> How does cold affect the bond when a tubular is replaced? Will the glue
> be effective in below freezing temperatures?


Rim cement is not water-soluble. The tire will still stick to the rim,
otherwise any glued tubular would separate from the rim in the rain.
You should take care to keep dirt and mud from contaminating the glued
surfaces, though.
I don't ride outside when tempertures are below freezing, so I can't
answer your second question.
 
Tom Sherman writes:

>> ...
>> I wouldn't make much hay on that. I have riding companions that
>> weigh 150 lbs who got pinch flats with tubulars. I can't imagine to
>> what roads you limit your rides but occasional pinch flats are a fact
>> of bicycling for active riders...


> Maybe pinch flats are a fact of life for cyclists that use narrow
> tires. I have not had any pinch flats, but then the narrowest tire I
> use is 35-305 mm (and the widest are 53-406 and 53-559 mm).


Good for you. I have testified in an accident reconstruction where a
rider claimed ignorance of pinch flats on his fat MTB tire on which he
crashed and tried to place the blame on the rim strip. Pinch flats
have a clear diagnostic appearance that I can recognize without fail.
This guy was a semi-pro, sponsored racer.

I am sure he knew what he had done but tried to weedle out of it. I
think it was the usual routine in which his buddies got on him for
falling off his bicycle. So he concocted a story to cover his ego.
Then they insisted he sue the bike shop if that's how it happened and
there he was in court. Every court case I have testified on seemed to
have that origin. Machismo!

Jobst Brandt
 
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Good for you. I have testified in an accident reconstruction where a
> rider claimed ignorance of pinch flats on his fat MTB tire on which he
> crashed and tried to place the blame on the rim strip. Pinch flats
> have a clear diagnostic appearance that I can recognize without fail.
> This guy was a semi-pro, sponsored racer.
>
> I am sure he knew what he had done but tried to weedle out of it. I
> think it was the usual routine in which his buddies got on him for
> falling off his bicycle. So he concocted a story to cover his ego.
> Then they insisted he sue the bike shop if that's how it happened and
> there he was in court. Every court case I have testified on seemed to
> have that origin. Machismo!
>


Can you elaborate on this? Somebody crashed because of a pinch flat and
he tried to blame it on a shop?

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons
 
Greg T? writes:

>> Good for you. I have testified in an accident reconstruction where
>> a rider claimed ignorance of pinch flats on his fat MTB tire on
>> which he crashed and tried to place the blame on the rim strip.
>> Pinch flats have a clear diagnostic appearance that I can recognize
>> without fail. This guy was a semi-pro, sponsored racer.


>> I am sure he knew what he had done but tried to wheedle out of it.
>> I think it was the usual routine in which his buddies got on him
>> for falling off his bicycle. So he concocted a story to cover his
>> ego. Then they insisted he sue the bike shop if that's how it
>> happened and there he was in court. Every court case I have
>> testified on seemed to have that origin. Machismo!


> Can you elaborate on this? Somebody crashed because of a pinch flat
> and he tried to blame it on a shop?


He claimed the pinch flat cut in the tube was caused by a faulty rim
tape that the bicycle shop had installed. John Forester testified for
the plaintiff that this was obviously the fault of the rim tape.
Photos made with grazing incidence light showed the cord pattern of
the tire casing embossed across the gash in the tube. When a tube is
pinched to the extent that it separates from compression, the tire
casing leaves 45 degree cord marks that straddle the "cut". I knew to
look for this from having patched many punch flats on latex and butyl
tubes. It was from this experience that I coined the term snake bite,
because riders using latex tubes often did not see the second hole.

Jobst Brandt
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Greg T? writes:
>
>
>>>Good for you. I have testified in an accident reconstruction where
>>>a rider claimed ignorance of pinch flats on his fat MTB tire on
>>>which he crashed and tried to place the blame on the rim strip.
>>>Pinch flats have a clear diagnostic appearance that I can recognize
>>>without fail. This guy was a semi-pro, sponsored racer.

>
>
>>>I am sure he knew what he had done but tried to wheedle out of it.
>>>I think it was the usual routine in which his buddies got on him
>>>for falling off his bicycle. So he concocted a story to cover his
>>>ego. Then they insisted he sue the bike shop if that's how it
>>>happened and there he was in court. Every court case I have
>>>testified on seemed to have that origin. Machismo!

>
>
>>Can you elaborate on this? Somebody crashed because of a pinch flat
>>and he tried to blame it on a shop?

>
>
> He claimed the pinch flat cut in the tube was caused by a faulty rim
> tape that the bicycle shop had installed.


And what damages was he suing for? Was he seriously injured?

Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Peter Kidwell writes:
>
>> I like running sprnts and tubs even though mending a puncture in a
>> tub is a pain. I don't get many punctures because I fitt Flint
>> catchers. I glue them with double sided tape and have never had a
>> problem. I carry two spare tubs and one roll of double sided tape
>> which does two tubs.

>
> Ah yes, "tire savers", as they were known in some circles, were one of
> those "tossing salt over the shoulder" quirks of bicycling, like
> wiping tires. Among my riding companions the only thing they did was
> to make obvious who had them on their bicycles when the roads were
> wet, because the guy with tire savers was the rider with the dirtiest legs


I attach the flint catcher under the mudguards.

The number of flats had no apparent statistical difference.
Do you keep stats. on flats ? bit nerdy

> The tire saver guys were there on Wednesday evenings at my weekly tire
> patch sessions just like the others.

You may have noted that in a little book to apply statistical calcs to the
data .
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/wiping.html
>
> Jobst Brandt
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Sherman writes:
>
>>> ...
>>> I wouldn't make much hay on that. I have riding companions that
>>> weigh 150 lbs who got pinch flats with tubulars. I can't imagine to
>>> what roads you limit your rides but occasional pinch flats are a fact
>>> of bicycling for active riders...

>
>> Maybe pinch flats are a fact of life for cyclists that use narrow
>> tires. I have not had any pinch flats, but then the narrowest tire I
>> use is 35-305 mm (and the widest are 53-406 and 53-559 mm).

>
> Good for you. I have testified in an accident reconstruction where a
> rider claimed ignorance of pinch flats on his fat MTB tire on which he
> crashed and tried to place the blame on the rim strip. Pinch flats
> have a clear diagnostic appearance that I can recognize without fail


.. It's not rocket science The pinch causes two small holes close together
like a snake bite .

> This guy was a semi-pro, sponsored racer.
>
> I am sure he knew what he had done but tried to weedle out of it. I
> think it was the usual routine in which his buddies got on him for
> falling off his bicycle. So he concocted a story to cover his ego.
> Then they insisted he sue the bike shop if that's how it happened and
> there he was in court. Every court case I have testified on seemed to
> have that origin. Machismo!
>
> Jobst Brandt


Seemed to, if, what a load of nonsence.
 
Mike Krueger wrote:

> As someone who actually rides tubulars, please allow me to state some
> facts:
> Tubular tires are far less prone to pinch flats, regardless of what
> others here have claimed.


Less than clinchers with latex tubes? Why should we believe this? Mere
experience isn't good enough, when others with experience make opposite
claims.

> Also, tubulars can be professionally repaired for $16 by TireAlert! if
> you can't do it yourself. This is more than a clincher inner tube, but
> it's not like you have to throw the tire away.


It's also as much as some decent clincher tires (e.g. you can currently buy
a Continental Sport 1000 at Nashbar for $7.48 US), and why throw away a
perfectly good inner tube?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Now is the time for all good men to come to.
-- Walt Kelly
 
PK wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Peter Kidwell writes:
>>
>>
>>>I like running sprnts and tubs even though mending a puncture in a
>>>tub is a pain. I don't get many punctures because I fitt Flint
>>>catchers. I glue them with double sided tape and have never had a
>>>problem. I carry two spare tubs and one roll of double sided tape
>>>which does two tubs.

>>
>>Ah yes, "tire savers", as they were known in some circles, were one of
>>those "tossing salt over the shoulder" quirks of bicycling, like
>>wiping tires. Among my riding companions the only thing they did was
>>to make obvious who had them on their bicycles when the roads were
>>wet, because the guy with tire savers was the rider with the dirtiest legs

>
>
> I attach the flint catcher under the mudguards.
>
> The number of flats had no apparent statistical difference.
> Do you keep stats. on flats ? bit nerdy
>


Well, if by "keeping stats", you mean to pay particular attention to the
incidence of flats with and without one remedy or another then, yes, one
does keep stats. Keen observers notice these things. It's just like
working in a bike ship, you'd notice that kevlar belted tires rate no
better than non-belted tires, but you couldn't convince the one guy, who
swears of one improvement, whereas another fellow gives a completely
contrasting anecdote.

>>The tire saver guys were there on Wednesday evenings at my weekly tire
>>patch sessions just like the others.

>
> You may have noted that in a little book to apply statistical calcs to the
> data .


????

>>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/wiping.html
>>
>>Jobst Brandt

>
>



Robin Hubert
 
Benjamin Lewis wrote:
> Mike Krueger wrote:
>
> > As someone who actually rides tubulars, please allow me to state some
> > facts:
> > Tubular tires are far less prone to pinch flats, regardless of what
> > others here have claimed.

>
> Less than clinchers with latex tubes? Why should we believe this? Mere
> experience isn't good enough, when others with experience make opposite
> claims.


Believe what you want. I attribute my own claims to the 40,000 miles I
have ridden on tubulars without a single pinch flat. Prior to that, I
was plagued with pinch flats on clinchers, or had to inflate them to
teeth-rattling pressures. Those here claiming that tubular pinch-flat
as often as clinchers also freely admit that they haven't ridden a
tubular tire in over 20 years! If that's your idea of experience...

> > Also, tubulars can be professionally repaired for $16 by TireAlert! if
> > you can't do it yourself. This is more than a clincher inner tube, but
> > it's not like you have to throw the tire away.

>
> It's also as much as some decent clincher tires (e.g. you can currently buy
> a Continental Sport 1000 at Nashbar for $7.48 US), and why throw away a
> perfectly good inner tube?


I'm sure you enjoy the comfort and performance of your $7 tires, but,
given the choice, I'll stick with my top-of-the-line professional
racing tubulars. And, to address your third point, what's "perfectly
good" about an inner tube with a hole in it?
 
Peter Kidwell writes:

>>>> ...
>>>> I wouldn't make much hay on that. I have riding companions that
>>>> weigh 150 lbs who got pinch flats with tubulars. I can't imagine to
>>>> what roads you limit your rides but occasional pinch flats are a fact
>>>> of bicycling for active riders...


>>> Maybe pinch flats are a fact of life for cyclists that use narrow
>>> tires. I have not had any pinch flats, but then the narrowest tire I
>>> use is 35-305 mm (and the widest are 53-406 and 53-559 mm).


>> Good for you. I have testified in an accident reconstruction where a
>> rider claimed ignorance of pinch flats on his fat MTB tire on which he
>> crashed and tried to place the blame on the rim strip. Pinch flats
>> have a clear diagnostic appearance that I can recognize without fail


> It's not rocket science The pinch causes two small holes close
> together like a snake bite .


Not in this case. This caused a linear pinch that could be
interpreted as caused by a stiff rim tape except that it had all the
wrong characteristics. It was not two holes side by side. That's why
this wise guy tried to pull this off.

>> This guy was a semi-pro, sponsored racer.


>> I am sure he knew what he had done but tried to wheedle out of it. I
>> think it was the usual routine in which his buddies got on him for
>> falling off his bicycle. So he concocted a story to cover his ego.
>> Then they insisted he sue the bike shop if that's how it happened and
>> there he was in court. Every court case I have testified on seemed to
>> have that origin. Machismo!


> Seemed to, if, what a load of nonsence.


Oh? You were there and heard the testimony I presume.

Jobst Brandt
 
Jobst Brandt <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robin Hubert writes:
>
> ...
> > For the uninitiated, gmf means "grams*meter force"?

>
> Make that "grams force", there is no meter in that poem. This is in
> lieu of dynes or newtons. Most people have an appreciation of one
> gram and how small it is but far less of a dyne or newton.


Nonsense. Most people are familiar with newtons [1], although some
consider apple and raspberry newton consumption to be heretical, with
the only true newton having a fig filling.

The newton is of course named after Newton, Massachusetts (where
Sheldon Brown hangs out).

[1] <http://www.healthierliving.org/nutrition/graphics/newtons.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
 
Mike Krueger wrote:
> Someone wrote:
> > Mike Krueger wrote:
> > > ...
> > > A tubular is much faster and easier to change on the road. Your riding
> > > buddies will appreciate this....

> >
> > Does water make a difference? If a rider with tubular tires has a flat
> > in the rain, it will be almost impossible to keep the portions of the
> > rim and tube that are glue covered dry, unless the rider is carrying a
> > tent or can find other covered shelter.
> >
> > How does cold affect the bond when a tubular is replaced? Will the glue
> > be effective in below freezing temperatures?

>
> Rim cement is not water-soluble. The tire will still stick to the rim,
> otherwise any glued tubular would separate from the rim in the rain....


Two different situations. I was referring to surface water possibly
preventing a bond from occurring between the glue on the tubular and
the glue on the rim when the spare is mounted, not water affecting the
glue on the already mounted tire as a solvent. If one dismounts a flat
tubular in the rain, and then attempts to mount a pre-glued replacement
tubular to the rim, does the water that will inevitably get on the glue
surface prior to mounting affect the strength of the bond?

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
 
Mike Krueger wrote:
> Ted Bennett wrote:
> > Sheldon Brown sums it up well on http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html :
> >
> > "Tubulars are considerably more expensive than clinchers of comparable
> > performance.
> >
> > Tubulars are very much harder to repair once punctured. Most people
> > just throw them away.
> >
> > You need to carry a complete spare tubular in case you get a flat.
> > This negates the weight advantage over clinchers, unless you have a team
> > car following you with spare wheels.
> >
> > If you replace a tubular on the road, you cannot corner safely at high
> > speeds until you go home and re-glue the tire. For safe high-speed
> > cornering, the glue needs to dry for at least several hours.
> >
> > Tubulars have higher rolling resistance than the best clinchers.
> >
> > Tubulars are rarely as true and round as clinchers.
> >
> > Improperly glued tubulars can roll off the rim. This almost always
> > causes a serious crash."

>
> As someone who actually rides tubulars, please allow me to state some
> facts:
> Tubular tires are far less prone to pinch flats, regardless of what
> others here have claimed.
> Any tubular has a far greater range of acceptable inflation pressures,
> without risking pinch flats or blowing off the rim.
> A flatted tubular will stay on the rim, which is both safer and more
> advantageous in a race or where it is simply not convenient to stop.
> A tubular is much faster and easier to change on the road. Your riding
> buddies will appreciate this.
> Tubular rims are less prone to impact damage because they don't have
> bead edges to get dinged if you hit a pothole.
> Tubular rim extrusions have a higher strength-to-weight ratio than
> comparable clincher rims (see above).
>
> There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. A properly glued
> tubular will not roll off the rim, and a pre-glued spare will stay on
> the rim under normal circumstances if you do have to change it on the
> road. The vast majority of cyclists do not ride in high mountains on a
> regular basis where melting glue would ever be an issue. Also, tubulars
> can be professionally repaired for $16 by TireAlert! if you can't do it
> yourself. This is more than a clincher inner tube, but it's not like
> you have to throw the tire away.
>
> I weigh 180 lbs. I have several pairs of tubular wheels. My favorite
> pair are built with Mavic GL330 rims (354 grams), 15g spokes, and
> 700x24C Clement Paris-Roubaix tires (269 grams). These wheels are
> light, comfortable, and durable. I buy the tires for only $43 each (I
> have a friend, but similar discounts are available if you buy tires
> mail-order from the UK).


Which mail-order shop in the UK that has 700x24C Clement Paris-Roubaix
tires?

Joseph