Heat resistant tubular glue?



Jobst Brandt <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tom Sherman writes:
>
> >> ...
> >> I wouldn't make much hay on that. I have riding companions that
> >> weigh 150 lbs who got pinch flats with tubulars. I can't imagine to
> >> what roads you limit your rides but occasional pinch flats are a fact
> >> of bicycling for active riders...

>
> > Maybe pinch flats are a fact of life for cyclists that use narrow
> > tires. I have not had any pinch flats, but then the narrowest tire I
> > use is 35-305 mm (and the widest are 53-406 and 53-559 mm).

>
> Good for you. I have testified in an accident reconstruction where a
> rider claimed ignorance of pinch flats on his fat MTB tire on which he
> crashed and tried to place the blame on the rim strip. Pinch flats
> have a clear diagnostic appearance that I can recognize without fail.
> This guy was a semi-pro, sponsored racer....


More information please. Was the rider using low pressure for
additional traction, or did he hit a sharp edge (e.g. rim of a pothole)
at high speed?

I do not ride fast where the pavement is very poor, and I use wider
tires than most road cyclists, which is a reasonable explanation why I
have not experienced any pinch flats.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Mike Krueger wrote:
> > I weigh 180 lbs. I have several pairs of tubular wheels. My favorite
> > pair are built with Mavic GL330 rims (354 grams), 15g spokes, and
> > 700x24C Clement Paris-Roubaix tires (269 grams). These wheels are
> > light, comfortable, and durable. I buy the tires for only $43 each (I
> > have a friend, but similar discounts are available if you buy tires
> > mail-order from the UK).

>
> Which mail-order shop in the UK that has 700x24C Clement Paris-Roubaix
> tires?


Sorry, my comment was slightly misleading. The Clement Paris-Roubaix
tubulars are, in fact, quite hard to find at any price. My "friend"
gets those for me wholesale from the USA importer at that price.
UK supplier ProBikeKit.com sells top-of-the-line Vittoria CX tubulars
for about $39 each. That's a fantastic price, considering they retail
for $75-90 each here in the USA. I recently bought the last of their
700x24c Pave EVO CG's for $43 each, since I'm trying to corner the
market on the fatter tubulars before they become extinct ;>(
The 700x21.5c Vittoria CX's are slightly narrower, but ride really well
and are quite durable.
 
I was quoted http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html :
>>
>> "Tubulars are considerably more expensive than clinchers of comparable
>>performance.
>>
>> Tubulars are very much harder to repair once punctured. Most people
>>just throw them away.
>>
>> You need to carry a complete spare tubular in case you get a flat.
>>This negates the weight advantage over clinchers, unless you have a team
>>car following you with spare wheels.
>>
>> If you replace a tubular on the road, you cannot corner safely at high
>>speeds until you go home and re-glue the tire. For safe high-speed
>>cornering, the glue needs to dry for at least several hours.
>>
>> Tubulars have higher rolling resistance than the best clinchers.
>>
>> Tubulars are rarely as true and round as clinchers.
>>
>> Improperly glued tubulars can roll off the rim. This almost always
>>causes a serious crash."

>

Mike Krueger patronized:
>
> As someone who actually rides tubulars, please allow me to state some
> facts:


FWIW, I used to "actually" ride tubulars too, but experience convinced
me they weren't worth the trouble, especially after I stopped being able
to buy Criterium Setas for $11 each...

> Tubular tires are far less prone to pinch flats, regardless of what
> others here have claimed.


Properly inflated clinchers don't commonly get pinch flats either. I
can't recall the last time I suffered a snakebite...

> There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. A properly glued
> tubular will not roll off the rim, and a pre-glued spare will stay on
> the rim under normal circumstances if you do have to change it on the
> road.


Unless you flat on a rainy day...I learned this the hard way!

If you flat a tubular in the wet, your team car better be close behind
with a spare wheel for you...

Sheldon "Clinchers For Me" Brown
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Everything looks worse in black and white --Paul Simon |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
Someone wrote:
> Mike Krueger wrote:


> > Rim cement is not water-soluble. The tire will still stick to the rim,
> > otherwise any glued tubular would separate from the rim in the rain....

>
> Two different situations. I was referring to surface water possibly
> preventing a bond from occurring between the glue on the tubular and
> the glue on the rim when the spare is mounted, not water affecting the
> glue on the already mounted tire as a solvent. If one dismounts a flat
> tubular in the rain, and then attempts to mount a pre-glued replacement
> tubular to the rim, does the water that will inevitably get on the glue
> surface prior to mounting affect the strength of the bond?


I've done it a couple of times in the rain. Regardless of the water,
the residual glue and the air pressure in the inflated spare kept the
tire on and got me home. Not a scientific test, but I have enough
confidence in it to continue using tubulars. Then again, I don't
deliberately ride in the rain if I can avoid it, because as we all
know, you are far more likely to suffer a puncture on any tire when the
roads are wet.
 
Peter Chisholm scritta:

> Don't ask Jobst for any advise about tubulars. He hates them and those
> that use them.


That's uncalled for. He may not like tubulars, but there's no reason to
accuse him of hating those who use them.

> He hasn't seen or used a tubular for as long as I have
> been using them. His knowledge is not current, on these and other
> subjects.


Could you be more specific about what has changed in tubular technology
since Jobst switched over? Tubulars I see seem the same as they were 30
years ago, though perhaps the workmaship is a bit shoddier on the
cheaper models.

Are there now rim cements superior to Clement Red or 3M Fastack?
>
> Ted Bennett wrote:
>
> I like Sheldon and appreciate his inputs and knowledge but like Jobst,
> he does not now nor has used tubulars for a long time. Does not sell
> them in the store he calls home so-
>

See above. I also don't sell leather hairnet helmets or slotted shoe
cleats. Does that indicate that I'm ignorant of those things...or might
it be that I've decided these are not products I can concienciously
recommend to my customers?
>
>>Sheldon Brown sums it up well on http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html :
>>
>> "Tubulars are considerably more expensive than clinchers of comparable
>>performance.

>
>
> Not true. Continental Sprinters and Vittoria CX are very comparible to
> GP3000/4000 in constuction methods and are comparible in price. Same
> for lower end tubies and clinchers.


A quick Google finds the Sprinter selling for $68 at REI
The Vittoria CX is 69.95 at Lickton's.

I sell the Avocet FasGrip for $29.95, Panaracer Pasela for $19.95,
Panaracer Rolly-Poly for $49.95. I consider all of these superior to
the tubs you mention.

>> Tubulars are very much harder to repair once punctured. Most people
>>just throw them away.

>
> "Harder' to repair than clinchers no doubt but not hard to do at all.
>

Really? How long does it take you? When I used to do it it usually
took me about 45 minutes, with only about a 70% chance of success...

>> You need to carry a complete spare tubular in case you get a flat.
>>This negates the weight advantage over clinchers, unless you have a team
>>car following you with spare wheels.

>
> Unlerss you also as a clincher rider, carry a foldable tire, which many
> do, in case of a cut sidewall.


I usually carry a cut-up hunk from the sidewall of a discarded tubular
to use as a blow out patch in the event of a cut sidewall.

Some folks use dollar bills for this...

> Most tubie users, like me, use them NOT
> for the 'weight' savings anyway.
>
>> If you replace a tubular on the road, you cannot corner safely at high
>>speeds until you go home and re-glue the tire. For safe high-speed
>>cornering, the glue needs to dry for at least several hours.

>
>
> True, but often I have gone home after one of my infrequent flats and
> found that after checking the tire, at 95psi, I didn't need to reglue
> it.


But you don't _know_ it's that secure until you try to remove it.

>> Tubulars have higher rolling resistance than the best clinchers.

>
> True...but in the grand scheme of things, the differences are teeny,
> tiny and the 'advantages' of tubies, like the 95psi, supple feel far
> outweigh any rolling resistence advantages for the majority of us
> cyclists that just ride...
>
>> Tubulars are rarely as true and round as clinchers.

>
> Not true. The ones I use, even the low prices ones from Clement are
> very round and true. Lots of low end Vittorias are not true at all, the
> clinchers.
>

I stand by this one. Good Japanese clinchers are rounder than any
tubular I ever rode.
>
>> Improperly glued tubulars can roll off the rim. This almost always
>>causes a serious crash."

>
> Flated clinchers, when decending and turning..will also cause the tire
> to come off, resulting in the same type crash. I haven't had one of the
> trubulars I have gluded roll in the 20 years I have been doing it. For
> customers or myself.


I've never had a crash caused by a flatted clincher. I did once crash
due to a tubular rolling off (first bike I ever had with tubs, a used
bike where the previous owner had not installed the tub properly.)

> So, let the gent decide for himself...the great tire debate continues
> un abated...


Well, duh!

Sheldon "Clinchers For Me" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| When anyone asks me how I can best describe my experience |
| in nearly 40 years at sea, I merely say, "uneventful." |
| Of course, there have been many gales and storms and fog |
| and the like. But in all my experience, I have never been |
| in any accident of any sort worth speaking about. I have |
| never seen but one vessel in distress in all my years at sea. |
| I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked, nor was I |
| ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster |
| of any sort. --E. J. Smith, Captain, RMS Titanic |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
Mike Krueger wrote:

>
> Benjamin Lewis wrote:
>> Mike Krueger wrote:
>>
>>> As someone who actually rides tubulars, please allow me to state some
>>> facts:
>>> Tubular tires are far less prone to pinch flats, regardless of what
>>> others here have claimed.

>>
>> Less than clinchers with latex tubes? Why should we believe this? Mere
>> experience isn't good enough, when others with experience make opposite
>> claims.

>
> Believe what you want. I attribute my own claims to the 40,000 miles I
> have ridden on tubulars without a single pinch flat. Prior to that, I
> was plagued with pinch flats on clinchers, or had to inflate them to
> teeth-rattling pressures.


Just to clarify -- you rode clinchers with latex tubes?

> Those here claiming that tubular pinch-flat as often as clinchers also
> freely admit that they haven't ridden a tubular tire in over 20 years! If
> that's your idea of experience...


.... then what? Were the tubulars of 20 years ago more prone to pinch
flats? What has changed since then that invalidates the experience?

> I'm sure you enjoy the comfort and performance of your $7 tires, but,
> given the choice, I'll stick with my top-of-the-line professional
> racing tubulars. And, to address your third point, what's "perfectly
> good" about an inner tube with a hole in it?


What isn't, once you patch it?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Now is the time for all good men to come to.
-- Walt Kelly
 
On 02 Jan 2006 17:50:17 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>You say that as though something about tubulars is different today
>than when they were the mainstream of tires used by bikies. Can you
>explain what that might be and how it prevents pinch flats or rim
>heating?


On dealing with rim heating, it's quite likely that changes in rim
cement are making that less a problem.

The best rim cement was not available more than about ten years ago
(Vittoria Mastik 1 -- which is clear, not like the older red Vittoria
cement). It's possible that other brands of cement have also changed
in the last couple of decades. Certainly there was stuff in common
use 15 or 20 years ago that almost no one I know would dare to use
today -- like Tubasti.

JT


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I think the OP should get a frame that allows larger tires -- a costly
but, in the long run, better solution for day-to-day riding.

JT

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On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 18:04:05 -0500, Sheldon Brown
<[email protected]> wrote:


>
>Are there now rim cements superior to Clement Red or 3M Fastack?


Continental and Vittoria Mastik 1.

JT



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I asked:
>
>>Are there now rim cements superior to Clement Red or 3M Fastack?

>

John Forrest Tomlinson replied"
>
> Continental and Vittoria Mastik 1.


I've used the Continental stuff, found it inferior to both Clement red
and Fastack. In fact, the only time a customer shed blood and it was my
fault, it was when a tubular I had glued with Continental rolled off his
rim.

Vittoria stuff I've seen has appeared pretty much identical to Clement red.

I don't believe there has been any real improvement in tubulars in my
lifetime.

Newer tubulars I've seen have been notably inferior to the Clements and
Pirellis I used to ride.

I never had the opportunity to ride Dunlop tubulars, but from what I've
heard from the older folks, they were even better.

Sheldon "Clinchers Have Improved Greatly In My Lifetime" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------+
| Daniel declined the tobacco with a wave of his hand. |
| "One day that Indian weed will kill more white men, |
| than white men have killed Indians." |
| Neal Stephenson - The System of the World |
+--------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 20:08:33 -0500, Sheldon Brown
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I asked:
>>
>>>Are there now rim cements superior to Clement Red or 3M Fastack?

>>

>John Forrest Tomlinson replied"
>>
>> Continental and Vittoria Mastik 1.

>
>I've used the Continental stuff, found it inferior to both Clement red
>and Fastack. In fact, the only time a customer shed blood and it was my
>fault, it was when a tubular I had glued with Continental rolled off his
>rim.


In the last few years? I like Continental much more than Clement Red.

>Vittoria stuff I've seen has appeared pretty much identical to Clement red.


Vittoria Mastik 1 --- which is clear? The old Vittoria red seemed like
Clement Red, but the clear stuff seems to hold even tighter. At least
for me it's very very hard to remove tires installed with it.

JT

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Tom Sherman writes:

>>>> A tubular is much faster and easier to change on the road. Your
>>>> riding buddies will appreciate this...


>>> Does water make a difference? If a rider with tubular tires has a
>>> flat in the rain, it will be almost impossible to keep the
>>> portions of the rim and tube that are glue covered dry, unless the
>>> rider is carrying a tent or can find other covered shelter.


>>> How does cold affect the bond when a tubular is replaced? Will the
>>> glue be effective in below freezing temperatures?


>> Rim cement is not water-soluble. The tire will still stick to the
>> rim, otherwise any glued tubular would separate from the rim in the
>> rain...


> Two different situations. I was referring to surface water possibly
> preventing a bond from occurring between the glue on the tubular and
> the glue on the rim when the spare is mounted, not water affecting
> the glue on the already mounted tire as a solvent. If one dismounts
> a flat tubular in the rain, and then attempts to mount a pre-glued
> replacement tubular to the rim, does the water that will inevitably
> get on the glue surface prior to mounting affect the strength of the
> bond?


That tubular users cannot grasp this concept probably arises from not
patching tires on the road where a similar circumstance occurs. A
tube cannot be effectively patched when wet because water has a
greater affinity for surfaces (the tube) than rubber cement or for
that matter, tubular rim glue. A spare tire will not adhere
reasonably well if the rim is wet, even if it has a usable residue of
rim cement after pulling the flat tire off.

Jobst Brandt
 
John Forrest Tomlinson writes:

>> You say that as though something about tubulars is different today
>> than when they were the mainstream of tires used by bikies. Can
>> you explain what that might be and how it prevents pinch flats or
>> rim heating?


> On dealing with rim heating, it's quite likely that changes in rim
> cement are making that less a problem.


"Likely"! I thought you were reporting from some comparative
evaluation that you had made, not conjecture about what might be
better today than in the days of yore.

> The best rim cement was not available more than about ten years ago
> (Vittoria Mastik 1 -- which is clear, not like the older red
> Vittoria cement). It's possible that other brands of cement have
> also changed in the last couple of decades. Certainly there was
> stuff in common use 15 or 20 years ago that almost no one I know
> would dare to use today -- like Tubasti.


Yes, because someone like you might laugh at them for doing so without
knowing why. I have seen no indication that Vittoria glue is more
temperature insensitive than glues that I used with great success
after I fitted my wheels with thermal insulator strips. Even then, I
found the cost and tedium of sew-up repair not worth the effort... and
you are telling me that things are "likely" better today. I sense a
tubular tire chauvinist.

Jobst Brandt
 
Mike Krueger writes:

>>> As someone who actually rides tubulars, please allow me to state some
>>> facts:


>>> Tubular tires are far less prone to pinch flats, regardless of what
>>> others here have claimed.


This is "begging the question" as in debating. By claiming your
statement to be a "fact" you try to avoid showing why it should be
taken as fact.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

>> Less than clinchers with latex tubes? Why should we believe this? Mere
>> experience isn't good enough, when others with experience make opposite
>> claims.


> Believe what you want. I attribute my own claims to the 40,000
> miles I have ridden on tubulars without a single pinch flat. Prior
> to that, I was plagued with pinch flats on clinchers, or had to
> inflate them to teeth-rattling pressures. Those here claiming that
> tubular pinch-flat as often as clinchers also freely admit that they
> haven't ridden a tubular tire in over 20 years If that's your idea
> of experience...


So where do the pinch flats occur? The way you state that, we are all
incompetent, most of us having had a pinch flat on occasion with
tubulars and latex tubes. As I said, the term snake bite arose from
the occurrence when all bikies rode tubular tires with latex tubes.
You must be riding somewhere else when you ride than what athletic
bicyclists who get snake bites ride.

>>> Also, tubulars can be professionally repaired for $16 by
>>> TireAlert! if you can't do it yourself. This is more than a
>>> clincher inner tube, but it's not like you have to throw the tire
>>> away.


>> It's also as much as some decent clincher tires (e.g. you can
>> currently buy a Continental Sport 1000 at Nashbar for $7.48 US),
>> and why throw away a perfectly good inner tube?


> I'm sure you enjoy the comfort and performance of your $7 tires,
> but, given the choice, I'll stick with my top-of-the-line
> professional racing tubulars. And, to address your third point,
> what's "perfectly good" about an inner tube with a hole in it?


Well why didn't you say that at the outset instead of claiming that
those who don't use tubulars don't know what they are doing, and
implying they are inept riders?

Jobst Brandt
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ted Bennett wrote:
>
> I like Sheldon and appreciate his inputs and knowledge but like Jobst,
> he does not now nor has used tubulars for a long time. Does not sell
> them in the store he calls home so-
>
> >
> > Sheldon Brown sums it up well on http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html :
> >
> > "Tubulars are considerably more expensive than clinchers of comparable
> > performance.

>
> Not true. Continental Sprinters and Vittoria CX are very comparible to
> GP3000/4000 in constuction methods and are comparible in price. Same
> for lower end tubies and clinchers.


Hm. On one hand, my tubular-riding friend thrives on picking up closeout
tubies. On the other hand, I get a local-racing-club deal from Kult
Bicycles (kultbike.com) that provides me with light, high-quality
clinchers that work great and are very cheap. Certainly less than what
my friend pays for his good tubulars.

> > You need to carry a complete spare tubular in case you get a flat.
> > This negates the weight advantage over clinchers, unless you have a team
> > car following you with spare wheels.

>
> Unless you also as a clincher rider, carry a foldable tire, which many
> do, in case of a cut sidewall. Most tubie users, like me, use them NOT
> for the 'weight' savings anyway.


I have used mylar granola/power bar wrappers and paper currency (both of
which are, ahem, dual-use technologies) more than once to repair
sidewall cuts. It works for return trips, though with the paper bill
it's a good idea to pull it out asap after the ride so the bill doesn't
get worn to a tatter. The mylar wrappers seem more durable, but does one
really want to ride around on a tire with a load-bearing granola bar
wrapper?

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
 
On 03 Jan 2006 02:42:35 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson writes:
>
>>> You say that as though something about tubulars is different today
>>> than when they were the mainstream of tires used by bikies. Can
>>> you explain what that might be and how it prevents pinch flats or
>>> rim heating?

>
>> On dealing with rim heating, it's quite likely that changes in rim
>> cement are making that less a problem.

>
>"Likely"! I thought you were reporting from some comparative
>evaluation that you had made, not conjecture about what might be
>better today than in the days of yore.
>

Jobst, unlike you I don't presume/pretend to know everything, but am
willing to speculate openly, with my assumptions out in the open.

I'll ask you -- are you familiar enough with adhesives to say that it
is not possible that different glues might behave differently when
heated? If you know that for a fact, please share the information
with us.

If you don't know whether or not such differences can exist, it would
seem far more prudent of you to keep an open mind rather than
criticsing other people for speculation that is clearly labeled as
speculation.

So which is it? Do you know the possiblity I suggested cannot exist,
or are you just letting your anti-tubular bias lead to arrogant
ignorance.


>Yes, because someone like you might laugh at them for doing so without
>knowing why. I have seen no indication that Vittoria glue
> is more
>temperature insensitive than glues that I used with great success
>after I fitted my wheels with thermal insulator strips.


Have you conducted this test on current Vittoria glue (not the glue
from 20 years ago)? If you haven't, then you comments are besides the
point, which is that it possible that glues have changed.

So which Vittoria glue did you test and when?

> Even then, I
>found the cost and tedium of sew-up repair not worth the effort.


So do I. Why do you have bring random issues into the discussion of
glue melting?

JT



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Tom Sherman writes:

>>>> I wouldn't make much hay on that. I have riding companions that
>>>> weigh 150 lbs who got pinch flats with tubulars. I can't imagine
>>>> to what roads you limit your rides but occasional pinch flats are
>>>> a fact of bicycling for active riders...


>>> Maybe pinch flats are a fact of life for cyclists that use narrow
>>> tires. I have not had any pinch flats, but then the narrowest
>>> tire I use is 35-305 mm (and the widest are 53-406 and 53-559 mm).


>> Good for you. I have testified in an accident reconstruction where
>> a rider claimed ignorance of pinch flats on his fat MTB tire on
>> which he crashed and tried to place the blame on the rim strip.
>> Pinch flats have a clear diagnostic appearance that I can recognize
>> without fail. This guy was a semi-pro, sponsored racer....


> More information please. Was the rider using low pressure for
> additional traction, or did he hit a sharp edge (e.g. rim of a
> pothole) at high speed?


> I do not ride fast where the pavement is very poor, and I use wider
> tires than most road cyclists, which is a reasonable explanation why
> I have not experienced any pinch flats.


I see you want to go over the entire case. He descended Centennial
Dr. on his MTB past Lawrence Hall of Science and on the steep part of
the hill, at the botanical gardens, encountered a pot hole in the
pavement that could not be ridden. In the ensuing maneuver to avoid
the hole he hit a bump that cause a pinch flat. The subsequent
flat, at speed, caused a series of further cuts in the tire as he
continued before crashing and getting some skin abrasions.

More untruths in plaintiff's deposition emerged the farther the
incident was investigated. I was satisfied that the principal claim
against the bicycle shop was fabricated and that this could be proven
unambiguously.

Jobst Brandt
 
John Forrest Tomlinson writes:

>>>> You say that as though something about tubulars is different today
>>>> than when they were the mainstream of tires used by bikies. Can
>>>> you explain what that might be and how it prevents pinch flats or
>>>> rim heating?


>>> On dealing with rim heating, it's quite likely that changes in rim
>>> cement are making that less a problem.


>> "Likely"! I thought you were reporting from some comparative
>> evaluation that you had made, not conjecture about what might be
>> better today than in the days of yore.


> Jobst, unlike you I don't presume/pretend to know everything, but am
> willing to speculate openly, with my assumptions out in the open.


I never suggested you know anything about this. Why would you assume
you know "everything". You are the one who brought this up while
arguing that present day adhesives are better than the ones I used.

> I'll ask you -- are you familiar enough with adhesives to say that it
> is not possible that different glues might behave differently when
> heated? If you know that for a fact, please share the information
> with us.


Enough to say categorically that all pressure sensitive glues are
thermally unstable, becoming more liquid with increasing temperature.
That is why track (hard) glue exists for applications where reuse of
the adhesive is not required.

> If you don't know whether or not such differences can exist, it
> would seem far more prudent of you to keep an open mind rather than
> criticsing other people for speculation that is clearly labeled as
> speculation.


Your use of the subjunctive doesn't get you any free milage in arguing
that the age old problems surrounding tubular tires have been solved.
I guess you cannot imagine that there are scientific phenomena that
can be known and that all the conjecture you can muster won't change
that. What you propose is what seems prevalent in these discussions:
that there are no facts, only opinions, and the more people who hold
an opinion the more "factual" it is. The word "fact" being loosely
used in this forum as a variable, where it is used to beg the
question.

> So which is it? Do you know the possiblity I suggested cannot exist,
> or are you just letting your anti-tubular bias lead to arrogant
> ignorance.


I think you must have joined wreck.bike yesterday. I have stated
where the matter lies often enough over the last ten years or more as
well as in this thread. Don't belabor the question. In any case, if
you must ask, you shouldn't be telling this forum how much better
tubular glues work today than yesterday.

>> Yes, because someone like you might laugh at them for doing so
>> without knowing why. I have seen no indication that Vittoria glue
>> is more temperature insensitive than glues that I used with great
>> success after I fitted my wheels with thermal insulator strips.


> Have you conducted this test on current Vittoria glue (not the glue
> from 20 years ago)? If you haven't, then you comments are besides
> the point, which is that it possible that glues have changed.


Who wants to know. Have you conducted tests on current rim glues in
comparison to others? If not, you might do that instead of proposing
others do your research. You are the one making claims that there is
an improvement even though tests cited here show no such advances.

> So which Vittoria glue did you test and when?


This question is for you, not me.

>> Even then, I found the cost and tedium of sew-up repair not worth
>> the effort.


> So do I. Why do you have bring random issues into the discussion of
> glue melting?


This is a major issue and one that was a hazard for riders for all the
years tubulars were in general use.

Jobst Brandt
 
On 03 Jan 2006 04:06:55 GMT, [email protected] wrote:


>
>Enough to say categorically that all pressure sensitive glues are
>thermally unstable, becoming more liquid with increasing temperature.


Do all pressure sensitive glues become equally unstable at any given
temperature, or can it vary? That is the issue I raised.

If you can't answer the question and haven't tested it, then my
speculation was quite valid and your bullying is lame.

>> Have you conducted this test on current Vittoria glue (not the glue
>> from 20 years ago)? If you haven't, then you comments are besides
>> the point, which is that it possible that glues have changed.

>
>Who wants to know. Have you conducted tests on current rim glues in
>comparison to others?


I haven't but given that we hear from "old timers" about glue melting
but less of that now, it seems extremely reasonalbe to speculate that
changes in glue could account for that. If you have facts or specific
knowledge to refute that please share them. Otherwise, you're just
being a bully and that doesn't work on me.

So -- do all road cements get soft at the same temperature? A simple
"I don't know; it's possible" will suffice.

JT



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In article <[email protected]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> I haven't but given that we hear from "old timers" about glue melting
> but less of that now,


That far fewer people run tubular tires can account for
`hearing less of that now'.

> it seems extremely reasonalbe to speculate that
> changes in glue could account for that.


All you bring is speculation, accusations, and demands
that others do your research for you. I do not care for
your speculations, because you have never shown technical
competence such as would pre-dispose me to entertain them.

> If you have facts or specific
> knowledge to refute that please share them.


Do it yourself. Tell us what you learn.

> Otherwise, you're just
> being a bully and that doesn't work on me.


Exactly how have you been bullied? I do not see it. If you
had been bullied, there are plenty of people on this forum
who would have said so. No, you do not get my sympathy.
You have not been bullied.

--
Michael Press