Heat resistant tubular glue?



>>>Mike Krueger wrote:
>>>>A tubular is much faster and easier to change on the road. Your riding
>>>>buddies will appreciate this....


>>Someone wrote:
>>>Does water make a difference? If a rider with tubular tires has a flat
>>>in the rain, it will be almost impossible to keep the portions of the
>>>rim and tube that are glue covered dry, unless the rider is carrying a
>>>tent or can find other covered shelter.
>>>How does cold affect the bond when a tubular is replaced? Will the glue
>>>be effective in below freezing temperatures?


> Mike Krueger wrote:
>>Rim cement is not water-soluble. The tire will still stick to the rim,
>>otherwise any glued tubular would separate from the rim in the rain....


Someone wrote:
> Two different situations. I was referring to surface water possibly
> preventing a bond from occurring between the glue on the tubular and
> the glue on the rim when the spare is mounted, not water affecting the
> glue on the already mounted tire as a solvent. If one dismounts a flat
> tubular in the rain, and then attempts to mount a pre-glued replacement
> tubular to the rim, does the water that will inevitably get on the glue
> surface prior to mounting affect the strength of the bond?
>

It doesn't seem to make any difference. Water just won't
mix with the cement and a reasonably fresh glue layer is
plenty sticky in spite of a little water.

I've only changed a flat in the rain once, on a club ride.
No more or less miserable than any other flat in the rain.
Riding to any available shelter is a big difference from
just standing in the rain.

Today for example I finished errands and rode another mile
or so before returning to the shop to change indoors out of
the sleet. I'd rather ride a flat tubular (leaning back,
taking some pressure off the front wheel) a while than deal
with it by the side of the road.

Rainy days sure do disturb the normally compacted crud in
the pavement. Every piece it seems washes sharp side up. . .

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
-snip much-
Sheldon Brown wrote:
> I've never had a crash caused by a flatted clincher. I did once crash
> due to a tubular rolling off (first bike I ever had with tubs, a used
> bike where the previous owner had not installed the tub properly.)


Which is not all that common an event. Sounds horrible
anyway. If it happened to _me_ at a young age, I might have
abandoned tubulars too!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
-snip-
> It's possible that other brands of cement have also changed
> in the last couple of decades. Certainly there was stuff in common
> use 15 or 20 years ago that almost no one I know would dare to use
> today -- like Tubasti.



I hear you. Although I also used Tubasti exclusively for
about 15 years, I sure wouldn't now. Some Tubasti tubes are
like tapioca (yes, lumpy) and some like heavy cream. Clear
cements are consistent - much better for achieving a thin
even edge-to-edge layer. Although I can't say I ever saw a
Tubasti-ed tire lift because of it, ya gotta wonder. . .

As another contributor mentioned recently it is not rocket
science to mount a tubular on a rim. _Somebody_ is buying
all that Tubasti, yet we don't see a rash of lifted tires.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
Mike Krueger wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Mike Krueger wrote:
> > > I weigh 180 lbs. I have several pairs of tubular wheels. My favorite
> > > pair are built with Mavic GL330 rims (354 grams), 15g spokes, and
> > > 700x24C Clement Paris-Roubaix tires (269 grams). These wheels are
> > > light, comfortable, and durable. I buy the tires for only $43 each (I
> > > have a friend, but similar discounts are available if you buy tires
> > > mail-order from the UK).

> >
> > Which mail-order shop in the UK that has 700x24C Clement Paris-Roubaix
> > tires?

>
> Sorry, my comment was slightly misleading. The Clement Paris-Roubaix
> tubulars are, in fact, quite hard to find at any price. My "friend"
> gets those for me wholesale from the USA importer at that price.
> UK supplier ProBikeKit.com sells top-of-the-line Vittoria CX tubulars
> for about $39 each. That's a fantastic price, considering they retail
> for $75-90 each here in the USA. I recently bought the last of their
> 700x24c Pave EVO CG's for $43 each, since I'm trying to corner the
> market on the fatter tubulars before they become extinct ;>(
> The 700x21.5c Vittoria CX's are slightly narrower, but ride really well
> and are quite durable.


Argh! I almost ordered some rims with fantasies of riding Clement
Paris-Roubaix's... Does your friend have a "normal" retail price for
random joes like me?

Regular CX is no problem for me to find, and I can get unlimited Pave
EVO's for $65. But that ugly green tread makes me nauseous!

Do you know of anyone who has tried the Schwalbe Stelvio 700x25
tubulars?

Joseph
 

>> Ted Bennett wrote:
>>
>> I like Sheldon and appreciate his inputs and knowledge but like Jobst,
>> he does not now nor has used tubulars for a long time. Does not sell
>> them in the store he calls home so-
>>

> See above. I also don't sell leather hairnet helmets or slotted shoe
> cleats. Does that indicate that I'm ignorant of those things...or might
> it be that I've decided these are not products I can concienciously
> recommend to my customers?

As a service to the customer you should provide a consmable like tubulars.
The choice of the customer is more important than what you can and can't
recommend. You have decided to let down a customer who needs a tub. Think
about it you from the customers side.

PK
 
"Mike Krueger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ted Bennett wrote:
>> Sheldon Brown sums it up well on http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html :
>>
>> "Tubulars are considerably more expensive than clinchers of comparable
>> performance.
>>
>> Tubulars are very much harder to repair once punctured. Most people
>> just throw them away.
>>
>> You need to carry a complete spare tubular in case you get a flat.
>> This negates the weight advantage over clinchers, unless you have a team
>> car following you with spare wheels.
>>
>> If you replace a tubular on the road, you cannot corner safely at high
>> speeds until you go home and re-glue the tire. For safe high-speed
>> cornering, the glue needs to dry for at least several hours.
>>
>> Tubulars have higher rolling resistance than the best clinchers.
>>
>> Tubulars are rarely as true and round as clinchers.
>>
>> Improperly glued tubulars can roll off the rim. This almost always
>> causes a serious crash."

>
> As someone who actually rides tubulars, please allow me to state some
> facts:
> Tubular tires are far less prone to pinch flats, regardless of what
> others here have claimed.
> Any tubular has a far greater range of acceptable inflation pressures,
> without risking pinch flats or blowing off the rim.
> A flatted tubular will stay on the rim, which is both safer and more
> advantageous in a race or where it is simply not convenient to stop.
> A tubular is much faster and easier to change on the road. Your riding
> buddies will appreciate this.
> Tubular rims are less prone to impact damage because they don't have
> bead edges to get dinged if you hit a pothole.
> Tubular rim extrusions have a higher strength-to-weight ratio than
> comparable clincher rims (see above).
>
> There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. A properly glued
> tubular will not roll off the rim, and a pre-glued spare will stay on
> the rim under normal circumstances if you do have to change it on the
> road. The vast majority of cyclists do not ride in high mountains on a
> regular basis where melting glue would ever be an issue. Also, tubulars
> can be professionally repaired for $16 by TireAlert! if you can't do it
> yourself. This is more than a clincher inner tube, but it's not like
> you have to throw the tire away.
>
> I weigh 180 lbs. I have several pairs of tubular wheels. My favorite
> pair are built with Mavic GL330 rims (354 grams), 15g spokes, and
> 700x24C Clement Paris-Roubaix tires (269 grams). These wheels are
> light, comfortable, and durable. I buy the tires for only $43 each (I
> have a friend, but similar discounts are available if you buy tires
> mail-order from the UK).
>

Thanks for the tip about TireAlert.com.
That saves a lot of hassle as to what to do with expensive flatted tubulars
for sure.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> a shy person writes:


I may be a lot of things but I'm not shy.

> > 3M is not a good choice for tubular glue. Despite Brandt's claims to
> > the contrary, glue *does* make a difference in heat resistance, and
> > unlike Brandt, I can point you to hard evidence to support my
> > statement:

>
> http://www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/bicycle/Part6.pdf
>
> Reading this article I see a report by someone who has never don
> this. Rolling a tire is not the hazard of heated rim glues but rather
> tire creep around the rim.


It is reasonable to suppose that if the glue is resistant to softening
and allowing it to roll off, it would be resistant to softening in a
way that would allow it to creep around the tire. In fact, it is
completely absurd and grasping at straws to suggest otherwise. The fact
remains that there is a significant dfference among glues in heat
resistance.

> Besides that the temperatures investigated never
> got to the level that cause serious problems and those are above 100
> degrees C.


You have no hard evidence of that. Get a thermometer, and then tell us
what the temperature is. However, it is clear from the test that there
are temperatures where some glues, 3M for instance, are significantly
weakened, and Vittoria is completely safe.

> That this report focuses on rolling tires laterally off the rim is a
> glaring failure investigate the heated glue problem.


Bull$hit. Roll-off strength is a way of measuring the comparative
resistance of the glue to softening and relative strength of the bond,
and applies equally to creep or roll. The problem here for you is that
there is hard experimental evidence that exposes the position you have
taken for decades, that tubular road glues are hopelessly flawed by a
tendency to soften when heated, as complete and utter BS. The fact is
that there *is* a difference in glues, and that under any but the most
extreme conditions ( your fabled descents on steep unpaved Alpine roads
with constant braking to avoid having the bike slide out on
switchbacks) this difference is demonstrably significant. Furthermore,
there is no evidence that even under your
extreme-beyond-reality-for-99.99%-of-people (the roads in your scenario
were paved decades ago and if they're not they're properly ridden now
on MTBs) scenario that Vittoria glue would be inadequate.

> Worse yet is the
> assumption that this is a linear function of adhesion vs. temperature
> with almost no data in the graph.


No one makes that assumption. There is test evidence to show that there
is a difference in glues; the author explains also why they think the
temperature that they tested to is meaningful. If you have other hard
evidence involving a thermometer and a survey of the conditions that
people are likely to encounter that suggests that higher temperatures
are commonplace in mountain descents, please present it. The fact that
you got snow to sizzle on your wheels 40 years ago on unpaved Alpine
roads does not provide such evidence.

> This rings of so much "bench
> racing". Don't bet your safety on this "research".


What do you bet your safety on, then? Their research is well done.
Here's an idea: next time anyone wants to test their rim temperature
after a descent{ squirt your water bottle on the rim and see if the
water boils off. If it does, you have matched the extreme conditions
that Brandt managed to create; otherwise, you're more in the realm of
everyday reality tested by the researcher.

> You'll not that rim glue turns dark grey with use as it abrades the
> aluminum rim. In fact the base tape wears through the anodizing if
> that surface is anodized. Non-anodized rims develope cloth pattern
> more rapidly in the contact surface from base tape motion without
> descending under hard braking.


Irrelevant to this discussion, and probably not universally true.
Certainly not tested under any kind of controlled conditions, and not
my recent experience.
 
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 05:27:24 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I haven't but given that we hear from "old timers" about glue melting
>> but less of that now,

>
>That far fewer people run tubular tires can account for
>`hearing less of that now'.


Sure, that's possible too.
>
>> it seems extremely reasonalbe to speculate that
>> changes in glue could account for that.

>
>All you bring is speculation, accusations, and demands
>that others do your research for you. I do not care for
>your speculations, because you have never shown technical
>competence such as would pre-dispose me to entertain them.
>
>> If you have facts or specific
>> knowledge to refute that please share them.

>
>Do it yourself. Tell us what you learn.


No -- this guy told me my speculation is wrong. I say it's possible.
I haven't proven it's possible -- that's why I label it is as
speculation. He's saying it's wrong -- that's an assertion of fact
that requires some backup. Otherwise Jobst should admit he's
speculating. Nothing wrong with that -- but I don't think he's
willing to come down off his high horse and admit that he's willing to
go by instinct/speculation whatever.
>
>> Otherwise, you're just
>> being a bully and that doesn't work on me.

>
>Exactly how have you been bullied? I do not see it. If you
>had been bullied, there are plenty of people on this forum
>who would have said so. No, you do not get my sympathy.
>You have not been bullied.


He's a bully because he jumps on speculation w/o specific knowledge or
alternate explanations and fuzzes over the issue with claims of
testing w/o offering specific info. You alternate explanation of the
paucity of reports on glues melting is the opposite -- a productive
attempt to find reasons for change

JT


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On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 01:28:52 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>-snip-
>> It's possible that other brands of cement have also changed
>> in the last couple of decades. Certainly there was stuff in common
>> use 15 or 20 years ago that almost no one I know would dare to use
>> today -- like Tubasti.

>
>
>I hear you. Although I also used Tubasti exclusively for
>about 15 years, I sure wouldn't now. Some Tubasti tubes are
>like tapioca (yes, lumpy) and some like heavy cream. Clear
>cements are consistent - much better for achieving a thin
>even edge-to-edge layer. Although I can't say I ever saw a
>Tubasti-ed tire lift because of it, ya gotta wonder. . .
>
>As another contributor mentioned recently it is not rocket
>science to mount a tubular on a rim. _Somebody_ is buying
>all that Tubasti, yet we don't see a rash of lifted tires.


I think what happens is people by the Tubasti once, then when putting
on the tire they notice it's not real confiendence-inspiring, so they
toss it and re-install. I know I did that once.

It's like candy corn -- the stuff is terrible but everyone tries it
once.

JT

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On 3 Jan 2006 00:24:48 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>
>Do you know of anyone who has tried the Schwalbe Stelvio 700x25
>tubulars?


I got a deal on Schwalbe stuff and got some of their tubulars in the
size narrower than that. Haven't used them yet, but they appear
well-constructed. The 700x25 are the same other than size, I think,
so if I can remember I'll report on the tires in April or May when I
use them.

JT

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On 3 Jan 2006 03:58:43 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> a shy person writes:

>
>I may be a lot of things but I'm not shy.
>
>> > 3M is not a good choice for tubular glue. Despite Brandt's claims to
>> > the contrary, glue *does* make a difference in heat resistance, and
>> > unlike Brandt, I can point you to hard evidence to support my
>> > statement:

>>
>> http://www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/bicycle/Part6.pdf
>>
>> Reading this article I see a report by someone who has never don
>> this. Rolling a tire is not the hazard of heated rim glues but rather
>> tire creep around the rim.

>
>It is reasonable to suppose that if the glue is resistant to softening
>and allowing it to roll off, it would be resistant to softening in a
>way that would allow it to creep around the tire. In fact, it is
>completely absurd and grasping at straws to suggest otherwise. The fact
>remains that there is a significant dfference among glues in heat
>resistance.


Thanks.

On this issue it seems Jobst Brandt's claims that that isn't so were
themselves the sort of SPECULATION he denouces.

JT

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Sheldon Brown wrote:
> Peter Chisholm scritta:
>
> > Don't ask Jobst for any advise about tubulars. He hates them and those
> > that use them.

>
> That's uncalled for. He may not like tubulars, but there's no reason to
> accuse him of hating those who use them.


Responses to me from Jobst, unlike your responses, have always been
rude, surly, condesending. I can only surmise he has a personal problem
with users of tubies, Delta brakes, tied and soldered wheel users.
>
> > He hasn't seen or used a tubular for as long as I have
> > been using them. His knowledge is not current, on these and other
> > subjects.

>
> Could you be more specific about what has changed in tubular technology
> since Jobst switched over? Tubulars I see seem the same as they were 30
> years ago, though perhaps the workmaship is a bit shoddier on the
> cheaper models.


More consistent, rounder, better materials(Conti specifically). The
Vittoria factory in Thailand is state of the art, MUCH better product,
both clincher and tubular. Not the arcane, cotton and silk hand made by
a gent in a dark room type tire. Better tread, glues, bodies, etc.
>
> Are there now rim cements superior to Clement Red or 3M Fastack?


Conti and Vittoria is what I use. I have no problems like stire creep
or rolling tires.

> >
> > Ted Bennett wrote:
> >
> > I like Sheldon and appreciate his inputs and knowledge but like Jobst,
> > he does not now nor has used tubulars for a long time. Does not sell
> > them in the store he calls home so-
> >

> See above. I also don't sell leather hairnet helmets or slotted shoe
> cleats. Does that indicate that I'm ignorant of those things...or might
> it be that I've decided these are not products I can concienciously
> recommend to my customers?


Then don't recommend them. I don't recommend Sora shifters either. NOT
the point. Tubulars are still a viable alternative for tires on a road
steed. They have advantages, some I see when I ride them, like
yesterday. When is the last time you rode on tubulars for an extended
amount of time Sheldon? That's my point.

> >
> >>Sheldon Brown sums it up well on http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html :
> >>
> >> "Tubulars are considerably more expensive than clinchers of comparable
> >>performance.

> >
> >
> > Not true. Continental Sprinters and Vittoria CX are very comparible to
> > GP3000/4000 in constuction methods and are comparible in price. Same
> > for lower end tubies and clinchers.

>
> A quick Google finds the Sprinter selling for $68 at REI
> The Vittoria CX is 69.95 at Lickton's.


And a Vittoria Open CX and latex tube is the same price. A GP-4000 is
$55, conti tube is $7, we sell Conti Sprinters for $64. You said
'considerably more expensive'..I guess 'considerable' means different
things to us.

>
> I sell the Avocet FasGrip for $29.95, Panaracer Pasela for $19.95,
> Panaracer Rolly-Poly for $49.95. I consider all of these superior to
> the tubs you mention.


Great. I don't sell Avocet, Panaracer or many others. 'Superior' is
also a subjective measutement.

>
> >> Tubulars are very much harder to repair once punctured. Most people
> >>just throw them away.

> >
> > "Harder' to repair than clinchers no doubt but not hard to do at all.
> >

> Really? How long does it take you? When I used to do it it usually
> took me about 45 minutes, with only about a 70% chance of success...


Undisturbed about 20 minutes tops. The hardest thing was finding the
right spot to open the seam.

>
> >> You need to carry a complete spare tubular in case you get a flat.
> >>This negates the weight advantage over clinchers, unless you have a team
> >>car following you with spare wheels.

> >
> > Unlerss you also as a clincher rider, carry a foldable tire, which many
> > do, in case of a cut sidewall.

>
> I usually carry a cut-up hunk from the sidewall of a discarded tubular
> to use as a blow out patch in the event of a cut sidewall.


Too heavy!!!!
>
> Some folks use dollar bills for this...In Boulder it has to be a $5 bill.
>
> > Most tubie users, like me, use them NOT
> > for the 'weight' savings anyway.
> >
> >> If you replace a tubular on the road, you cannot corner safely at high
> >>speeds until you go home and re-glue the tire. For safe high-speed
> >>cornering, the glue needs to dry for at least several hours.

> >
> >
> > True, but often I have gone home after one of my infrequent flats and
> > found that after checking the tire, at 95psi, I didn't need to reglue
> > it.

>
> But you don't _know_ it's that secure until you try to remove it.


Well, I can 'test it' on the road. The point is that it is not so
'dangerous' that you have to limp home..hardly riding at any speed.
With something that actually gets the pressure to 95psi, like CO2, no
prblems. Remember we are just ridin' alog here, not racing.
>
> >> Tubulars have higher rolling resistance than the best clinchers.

> >
> > True...but in the grand scheme of things, the differences are teeny,
> > tiny and the 'advantages' of tubies, like the 95psi, supple feel far
> > outweigh any rolling resistence advantages for the majority of us
> > cyclists that just ride...
> >
> >> Tubulars are rarely as true and round as clinchers.

> >
> > Not true. The ones I use, even the low prices ones from Clement are
> > very round and true. Lots of low end Vittorias are not true at all, the
> > clinchers.
> >

> I stand by this one. Good Japanese clinchers are rounder than any
> tubular I ever rode.


Okay, but like I stated, I sell Vittoria, Continental and Ritchey. Some
of the dual tread clinchers tires are not true at all.

> >
> >> Improperly glued tubulars can roll off the rim. This almost always
> >>causes a serious crash."

> >
> > Flated clinchers, when decending and turning..will also cause the tire
> > to come off, resulting in the same type crash. I haven't had one of the
> > trubulars I have gluded roll in the 20 years I have been doing it. For
> > customers or myself.

>
> I've never had a crash caused by a flatted clincher. I did once crash
> due to a tubular rolling off (first bike I ever had with tubs, a used
> bike where the previous owner had not installed the tub properly.)
>
> > So, let the gent decide for himself...the great tire debate continues
> > un abated...

>
> Well, duh!
>

My point is that clincher advantages are firmly in the grey area, and
no 'FAQ' demonstrates that they are a dumb idea. Some don't want to
glue their tires on, some don't want to reach for their shifters, some
want to tighten the strap on their pedals. For us non racers that just
ride along, each day, there is nothing black or white, in terms of
equipment.
 
Dans le message de
news:[email protected],
Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

>>> Not true. Continental Sprinters and Vittoria CX are very comparible
>>> to GP3000/4000 in constuction methods and are comparible in price.
>>> Same for lower end tubies and clinchers.

>>
>> A quick Google finds the Sprinter selling for $68 at REI
>> The Vittoria CX is 69.95 at Lickton's.

>
> And a Vittoria Open CX and latex tube is the same price. A GP-4000 is
> $55, conti tube is $7, we sell Conti Sprinters for $64. You said
> 'considerably more expensive'..I guess 'considerable' means different
> things to us.


While it's not a great racing tire, lots of guys in my club use a tubular
from the *supermarket'* which sells for 11,90. No problems with it as a
training tire, according to their reports. I don't ride them, but
experienced racers do.

>> I sell the Avocet FasGrip for $29.95, Panaracer Pasela for $19.95,
>> Panaracer Rolly-Poly for $49.95. I consider all of these superior to
>> the tubs you mention.

>
>>>> Tubulars are very much harder to repair once punctured. Most
>>>> people just throw them away.
>>>
>>> "Harder' to repair than clinchers no doubt but not hard to do at
>>> all.


Well, I wonder how may tubulars get punctured before they wear out. I think
rather few, and the guys here who prefer them (those cheap ones I mention
above), have (all the guys, all the rides) _never_ flatted during a year and
a half I have been with this club. On the other hand, there is usually a
flat on a clincher around every second ride.

>> Really? How long does it take you? When I used to do it it usually
>> took me about 45 minutes, with only about a 70% chance of success...

>
> Undisturbed about 20 minutes tops. The hardest thing was finding the
> right spot to open the seam.


> My point is that clincher advantages are firmly in the grey area, and
> no 'FAQ' demonstrates that they are a dumb idea. Some don't want to
> glue their tires on, some don't want to reach for their shifters, some
> want to tighten the strap on their pedals. For us non racers that just
> ride along, each day, there is nothing black or white, in terms of
> equipment.


Incidentally, I don't ride tubulars any more. I was never handy with the
glue.
--
Sandy
--
Il n'est aucune sorte de sensation qui soit plus vive
que celle de la douleur ; ses impressions sont sûres,
elles ne trompent point comme celles du plaisir.
- de Sade.
 
Sheldon Brown wrote:
> I've used the Continental stuff, found it inferior to both Clement red
> and Fastack. In fact, the only time a customer shed blood and it was my
> fault, it was when a tubular I had glued with Continental rolled off his
> rim.
>
> Vittoria stuff I've seen has appeared pretty much identical to Clement red.


Well, I guess I would agree that it *appears* pretty much identical to
Clement red. However I wouldn't recommend making any assumptions about
its performance based on its appearance. In the tests under controlled
conditions its performance is vastly superior, and the evidence is
convincing enough that until someone comes up with new data that
suggests otherwise, it's case closed.

> I don't believe there has been any real improvement in tubulars in my
> lifetime.
>
> Newer tubulars I've seen have been notably inferior to the Clements and
> Pirellis I used to ride.


I don't know about Pirellis but it seems that I get fewer flats these
days than I did on the Clements I used to ride, although I am still
riding a twenty year old Clement Criterium (it hasn't been ridden
continuously) with a lot of miles on it. The two flats I had with it
have been fixed with Tufo sealant. I think that the really cheap
"training" tires I get are inferior to training tires from 20 years ago
and have given up on them but may try some of the ones I've seen
suggested here.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson writes:


> > I'll ask you -- are you familiar enough with adhesives to say that it
> > is not possible that different glues might behave differently when
> > heated? If you know that for a fact, please share the information
> > with us.

>
> Enough to say categorically that all pressure sensitive glues are
> thermally unstable, becoming more liquid with increasing temperature.


*Everything* is thermally unstable. You get it hot enough, the rim will
melt or burn; in fact it will turn into plasma. But making a statement
that something is thermally unstable is not the same as providing
experimentally derived hard data that that shows that the temperature
at which something becomes unstable is one at which there is more than
an extremely remote possibility of it occurring in real world operating
conditions.

Only a complete blockhead would continue to insist that there are no
meaningful differences among glues WRT heat resistance. The data is
there; it's black and white. The irony is that your own insistence that
your extreme example is important actually emphasizes the importance of
the difference. If your situation can occur then it follows that other
braking situations generating less heat will occur more frequently, and
since there is incontrovertible evidence that there is a significant
difference at those more frequently encountered temperatures, only a
fool would ignore the data and pick a glue that has less heat
resistance if they do any kind of riding down mountain roads.

> > If you don't know whether or not such differences can exist, it
> > would seem far more prudent of you to keep an open mind rather than
> > criticsing other people for speculation that is clearly labeled as
> > speculation.

>
> Your use of the subjunctive doesn't get you any free milage in arguing
> that the age old problems surrounding tubular tires have been solved.


The subjunctive has nothing to do with tubulars, it has to do with you.
You have spent decades arguing that the heat softening of glue is a
fatal flaw in tubulars, and now you have been proven wrong by hard
data.

> I guess you cannot imagine that there are scientific phenomena that
> can be known and that all the conjecture you can muster won't change
> that. What you propose is what seems prevalent in these discussions:
> that there are no facts, only opinions, and the more people who hold
> an opinion the more "factual" it is. The word "fact" being loosely
> used in this forum as a variable, where it is used to beg the
> question.


Wow. Projection. You use conjecture to question the facts of a solid
research paper with important experimental data, and then call it
conjecture and your own conjecture facts.

> > Have you conducted this test on current Vittoria glue (not the glue
> > from 20 years ago)? If you haven't, then you comments are besides
> > the point, which is that it possible that glues have changed.

>
> Who wants to know.


The OP.

> Have you conducted tests on current rim glues in
> comparison to others? If not, you might do that instead of proposing
> others do your research.


The research has been done.

> You are the one making claims that there is
> an improvement even though tests cited here show no such advances.


What it shows is that there is significant difference among glues WRT
heat resistance.

> > So which Vittoria glue did you test and when?

>
> This question is for you, not me.


The tests have been done. The data is there. If you want to question it
you will need to provide other data. In the meantime, case closed.

> > So do I. Why do you have bring random issues into the discussion of
> > glue melting?

>
> This is a major issue and one that was a hazard for riders for all the
> years tubulars were in general use.


It was not a notable hazard. With 30 years of tubular riding I have not
seen it to be an issue, was never warned about it by the European pros
I rode with in mountains 30 years ago, never saw them get off a bike
and turn the front wheel around. It may have been a hazard but it
occurred only under extreme, extreme circumstances- constantly riding
the brakes over long or very steep descents instead of using air
braking, or riding down unpaved switchedback roads. Whether or not
Vittoria glue would fail under that situation is open to conjecture-
neither you nor I know the answer because we don't know the rim
temperature under those conditions, and we don't know what that glue
would do above 60oC. What we do know, though, is that under conditions
that people are more likely to encounter, the right glue choice will
make a difference. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there is
a range of operating temperature between 27o and 60oC (or higher if we
may be allowed some reasonable extrapolation) where Vittoria provides
an added margin of safety that other glues do not.

The answer to "Heat resistant tubular glue?"

Vittoria MastikOne.
 
<snip>

> > > So do I. Why do you have bring random issues into the discussion of
> > > glue melting?

> >
> > This is a major issue and one that was a hazard for riders for all the
> > years tubulars were in general use.

>
> It was not a notable hazard. With 30 years of tubular riding I have not
> seen it to be an issue, was never warned about it by the European pros
> I rode with in mountains 30 years ago, never saw them get off a bike
> and turn the front wheel around. It may have been a hazard but it
> occurred only under extreme, extreme circumstances- constantly riding
> the brakes over long or very steep descents instead of using air
> braking, or riding down unpaved switchedback roads. Whether or not


</snip>

You never saw it because you lightweights dropped the 90+ kg guys so
bad that they were half an hour after you guys to the summit! ;-)

I have had the glue melt while on descents in the mountains of
Switzerland, Italy, Norway, and Southern California. Maybe in a race
with no worries of cars coming the other way I may have been able to
use the brakes less, but when one weighs 100kg, speed builds up fast
down a 10% grade! From experience it was plainly obvious that riding
the brakes was bad. I made a serious effort to do all braking as short
as possible to not generate excessive heat. The only time I ever rode
the brakes was only after the glue had already melted so bad that I had
to go at not much more than a walking pace.

If we say that any given corner has a more or less max possible
cornering speed, and a certain descent has any number of corners, how
much braking would a 100kg rider need to do to keep the speed down, vs
a 65kg rider? How much heat would this generate? Any math whizzes fell
like modeling this?

Joseph
 
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 3 Jan 2006 00:24:48 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> >Do you know of anyone who has tried the Schwalbe Stelvio 700x25
> >tubulars?

>
> I got a deal on Schwalbe stuff and got some of their tubulars in the
> size narrower than that. Haven't used them yet, but they appear
> well-constructed. The 700x25 are the same other than size, I think,
> so if I can remember I'll report on the tires in April or May when I
> use them.
>
> JT


Any chance you could pump one up and measure it's width? If it has an
actual width of 22, ther eis reason to belive the 25's will actually be
25. If so I may be inclined to order some.

Joseph
 
a shy person writes:

> I may be a lot of things but I'm not shy.


So why do you snipe anonymously?

>>> 3M is not a good choice for tubular glue. Despite Brandt's claims
>>> to the contrary, glue *does* make a difference in heat resistance,
>>> and unlike Brandt, I can point you to hard evidence to support my
>>> statement:


http://www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/bicycle/Part6.pdf

>> Reading this article I see a report by someone who has never done
>> this. Rolling a tire is not the hazard of heated rim glues but
>> rather tire creep around the rim.


> It is reasonable to suppose that if the glue is resistant to
> softening and allowing it to roll off, it would be resistant to
> softening in a way that would allow it to creep around the tire. In
> fact, it is completely absurd and grasping at straws to suggest
> otherwise. The fact remains that there is a significant dfference
> among glues in heat resistance.


Oh oh! Here is another hypothesizer speaking from the KBD rather than
actual use of tubulars. "It is reasonable to suppose " is not a
convincing testimony of fact. Of course there are no facts, it's all
opinion in your perspective.

>> Besides that the temperatures investigated never got to the level
>> that cause serious problems and those are above 100 degrees C.


> You have no hard evidence of that. Get a thermometer, and then tell
> us what the temperature is. However, it is clear from the test that
> there are temperatures where some glues, 3M for instance, are
> significantly weakened, and Vittoria is completely safe.


I see you also are a recent visitor here. In many of these "tubulars
are better" threads I explained where that was "researched" as I
descended The Nufenen Pass in the Alps after stream crossings and snow
riding only to believe I had a flat as the tire hissed on entry into
hairpin turns, but stopped "leaking" as soon as I let up on the
brakes. When the tire did not go flat I discovered upon stopping,
that steam was coming out of the stem hole. That settles the question
for me.

Can you explain why "Vittoria is completely safe"? What is
"completely safe" anyway, there being no evidence of that in the
report.

Just the same, thanks for defining experiments that I should do to
support your claims of advancing glue technology. I spent many years
riding tubulars and am fully familiar with their feet of clay as well
as their strong points.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/mounting-tubulars.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/making-tubulars.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-repair.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance-tubular.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-folding.html

>> That this report focuses on rolling tires laterally off the rim is
>> a glaring failure investigate the heated glue problem.


> Bull$hit. Roll-off strength is a way of measuring the comparative
> resistance of the glue to softening and relative strength of the
> bond, and applies equally to creep or roll. The problem here for
> you is that there is hard experimental evidence that exposes the
> position you have taken for decades, that tubular road glues are
> hopelessly flawed by a tendency to soften when heated, as complete
> and utter BS. The fact is that there *is* a difference in glues,
> and that under any but the most extreme conditions (your fabled
> descents on steep unpaved Alpine roads with constant braking to
> avoid having the bike slide out on switchbacks) this difference is
> demonstrably significant. Furthermore, there is no evidence that
> even under your extreme-beyond-reality-for-99.99%-of-people (the
> roads in your scenario were paved decades ago and if they're not
> they're properly ridden now on MTBs) scenario that Vittoria glue
> would be inadequate.


You speak as a newcomer with no experience of the subject. If you are
as sure as you seem to be about this subject, how about presenting
what you have discovered about riding tubulars under limiting
conditions? I rode those years with many riders, locally and on tours
in the Sierra and Alps. No one rolled tires but they exploded them
from tire creep as the glue melted and the tire advanced around the
rim such that the valve stem was ripped from the tube. That was the
primary failure from hot glue. Tires creep every time the brakes are
applied and it is not a go-no-go event such as rolling a tire.

>> Worse yet is the assumption that this is a linear function of
>> adhesion vs. temperature with almost no data in the graph.


> No one makes that assumption. There is test evidence to show that
> there is a difference in glues; the author explains also why they
> think the temperature that they tested to is meaningful.


The assumption is glaring in the graph of that article because there
is practically no data while straight lines are shown to fit that
meager data. Those lines could be almost anywhere and they don't go
through the points.

> If you have other hard evidence involving a thermometer and a survey
> of the conditions that people are likely to encounter that suggests
> that higher temperatures are commonplace in mountain descents,
> please present it. The fact that you got snow to sizzle on your
> wheels 40 years ago on unpaved Alpine roads does not provide such
> evidence.


Oh? I see, the boiling point of water has probably also changed in
your estimation. The point is that this is a typical descent of which
we have many right here in the Santa Cruz Mountains except that I
never had the opportunity to descend them with water in the rim.

>> This rings of so much "bench racing". Don't bet your safety on
>> this "research".


> What do you bet your safety on, then? Their research is well done.


That is your opinion. I don't share that and, as a research engineer,
have developed a record on which I can rely and believe without acts
of faith but rather on repeatable practical experience.

> Here's an idea: next time anyone wants to test their rim temperature
> after a descent{ squirt your water bottle on the rim and see if the
> water boils off. If it does, you have matched the extreme conditions
> that Brandt managed to create; otherwise, you're more in the realm of
> everyday reality tested by the researcher.


I see you don't read well either. It is surprising how fast rims cool
on such descents and, of course, that is why rim brakes work as
well as they do. I suppose you have also never blown a tire off a
clincher rim from braking heat and don't believe that occurs. I think
you need to talk to tandem riders about that.

>> You'll not that rim glue turns dark grey with use as it abrades the
>> aluminum rim. In fact the base tape wears through the anodizing if
>> that surface is anodized. Non-anodized rims develop cloth pattern
>> more rapidly in the contact surface from base tape motion without
>> descending under hard braking.


> Irrelevant to this discussion, and probably not universally true.
> Certainly not tested under any kind of controlled conditions, and
> not my recent experience.


There you go again: "probably not universally true" trying to convince
readers that you don't ride tubulars, or at least not much. I'm sure
if you visit a bicycle shop like Peter Chisholm's where you can witness
abraded aluminum surfaces of tubular rims.

Why do you insist on hypothetically arguing this subject about which,
by your own words, you have no experience.

Jobst Brandt
 
[email protected] wrote:
<snip>

> What do you bet your safety on, then? Their research is well done.
> Here's an idea: next time anyone wants to test their rim temperature
> after a descent{ squirt your water bottle on the rim and see if the
> water boils off. If it does, you have matched the extreme conditions
> that Brandt managed to create; otherwise, you're more in the realm of
> everyday reality tested by the researcher.

</snip>

That is exactly as I have done many, many times. As I posted earlier
(perhaps in a differnt thread...) when I lived in Switzerland, I
routinely carried 2 water bottles; one for me, and one for the rims.
Squirting water onto the rims and seeing steam was a regular
occurrence. The only thing extreme about the situation was that I was
100kg and trying to keep myself from reaching terminal velocity in
free-fall off a cliff! Squirting was not done after the descent, rather
during to try to control the melt-down.

If the melt was severe and the creep got so bad that I could feel the
bump caused by the valve being forced at an angle, I would stop and
swap the wheel so it would creep back. This was not practical with the
back wheel, and since it only creeped a bit, it was enough to just pull
off the rear tire every few days and stick it back on where it was
supposed to be.

Joseph
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Howdy,
>
> I am considering going back to tubulars, but one of the issues that was
> most problematic for me using them in the past was the glue melting
> during heavy braking. I weigh 95-100 kg so it doesn't take too much
> breaking to get generate lots of heat, and the braking forces are high
> too, so the tires slide around on the rim a lot. This is not good. I
> used 3M Fast Tack for a while but it seemed to kill the base tapes. I
> haven't had to use glue for many years now.
>
> So what is the story with tubular glue these days? What suggestions do
> folks have for solutions to the melting problem?
>
> Joseph
>

Joseph look what you have stated in this thread fellow cyclists sniping at
one another, well some are.
I do like riding sprints and tubs I glue them using Jantex competition 76 de
lux adhesive rim tape its clean to use comes away with the tub leaving the
rim clean no problems in the wet I have never had one come off nor have I
suffered creep.
I use sprints and tubs on some of my lightweight bikes only, my audax, light
touring, expedition touring,trike, tandems, moultons roadsters and some
lightweights have clinchers.
So I hope this helps in your decision.

PK