Australia and New Zealand · Public discussion

Helmet debate.

Started by Marty · · Last activity · 64 posts · 4,300 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Australia and New Zealand
Published
27 May 2003
Last activity
13 June 2003
Original author
Marty
Posts
64
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
4,300
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 21–40 of 64
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. (Anthony Morton) said:
    Ray Peace said:

    Helmets certainly suck, but they're better than the alternative, which is head injuries. And it's
    not the falling off that kills you, it's the 1.5 tonnes of metal driven by inattentive idiots that
    hits you at 100 k/mh that does that.

    If you think a foam helmet will protect your head from a 100kph collision with a car then you're
    putting faith in miracles.

    Most head injuries result from car crashes, not from cycling, yet we don't require car occupants to
    wear helmets.

    But perhaps we should. I've often thought of padding my side pillar, or wearing my unobtrusive bike
    helmet when driving.

    I hope it will come, like third party premiums levied on petrol, so that the premium matches more
    closely the risk (number of klicks travelled.)

    Moosh🙂

  2. Trevor S said:

    "Moosh🙂" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Then how about we lobby our legislators to introduce a waiver of society's obligations to us if
    we fall off and hit our heads and have

    Why, do you want them euthanasied ?

    Not at all, but what do they want?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to be cared for for the rest of our lives? Our offspring and dependants will also be covered in
    this waiver -- no support for them if we do ourselves a mischief.

    and when you hit a little bit harder and the helment does not save you and you need continual
    care.. and ... so it goes on..

    You tried to avoid injury as much as reasonably possible (and that the law insists on)

    Quoted message said:

    The answer for me is that the choice (mine) comes back to me as an adult, after being fully
    informed of the consequences (the Governmwnts role). Minors are a different matter.

    But why should you reap govt benefits for your own risky behaviour? Either wear a helmet to receive
    benefit, or chose not to wear the helmet and waive the nebefit (to you and yours).

    Quoted message said:

    The number of brain injuries caused by accidents in cars from side impacts from 4-Wd's is
    staggering and could easily be substantially diminished by ensuring people in cars wear helmets.

    I've often thought about it. Society is not perfect yet.

    Quoted message said:

    Mothering type laws are a political debate, similar to the speeding debate, if they can have you
    thinking it has some relevance to safety and distract from the real problem... shrug...

    So many people have to be protected against themselves. Look at the number of silly investors who
    still believe that there is a totally secure investment paying 50% per annum.

    Are you trying to pose that speeding doesn't cause damage, statistically?

    Quoted message said:

    Here we sit bickering about wearing helmets, that is not what the debate is about for me, should I
    have the right as an adult to choose !! YES
    !!!!!!!!!

    And I agree, so long as you don't expect society to pick up the pieces if you come to grief from not
    following their safety rules.

    Hospitals refuse to do certain operations if folk refuse to modify their risky behaviour. Seems
    extremely generous that they do the operation at all, even if the risky behaviour that caused the
    problem is ceased.

    Quoted message said:

    Like censorship, the removal of that right to choose is the by far the greatest "evil".

    Huh? Since when does information cause harm to society?

    Your analogy is flawed.

    Moosh🙂

  3. RMan said:


    "Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Moosh🙂" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    Then how about we lobby our legislators to introduce a waiver of society's obligations to us

    Interesting idea - how about we apply it to drink drivers, and those who


    run

    Quoted message said:

    red lights to become vegetables choking up our nursing homes. But of


    course

    Quoted message said:

    must retain our obligations to all the Toorak health card holders.

    Different. In Vic, motorists pay TAC insurance that covers them for such at fault accidents.

    TAC?

    Is it compulsory? So a helmet-wearing, seatbelt-using driver has to pay the same premium as the
    non-wearer?

    The compulsory insurance is more problematic than the compulsory safety measures.

    Moosh🙂

  4. Peter Signorini said:


    "Moosh🙂" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    Then how about we lobby our legislators to introduce a waiver of society's obligations to us

    Interesting idea - how about we apply it to drink drivers, and those who run red lights to become
    vegetables choking up our nursing homes. But of course must retain our obligations to all the
    Toorak health card holders.

    But drink drivers tend to take out others. Must be stopped.

    Seatbelts and helmets only risk the non-wearer, and society's subsequent responsibility to them and
    their dependents.

    Moosh🙂

  5. "Moosh🙂" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 28 May 2003 09:09:02 +1000, "RMan" <[email hidden]> wrote:


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:


    TAC?

    Is it compulsory? So a helmet-wearing, seatbelt-using driver has to pay the same premium as the
    non-wearer?

    Yes TAC is compulsory. The premium does differ for different "risk" categories (not by a great
    deal), but no, not for helmet wearers.

    Quoted message said:

    The compulsory insurance is more problematic than the compulsory safety measures.

    WTF ? Of course it is. What is a compulsory safety measure ? Putting on a seat belt, obeying road
    rules etc vs. the complexity of sorting injury claims, fraud, defining payouts to long term
    injury/incapacitation.

    I don't know what your point is, but if you are having a dig at Vics TAC, I'd think about it again.
    It is by far the best in Australia and one of the best in the world. Only some of the European
    countries match it. It's not perfect, but if you ever have a car accident, make sure you're a
    Victorian in Victoria.

  6. RMan said:


    "Moosh🙂" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 28 May 2003 09:09:02 +1000, "RMan" <[email hidden]> wrote:


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:


    TAC?

    Is it compulsory? So a helmet-wearing, seatbelt-using driver has to pay the same premium as the
    non-wearer?

    Yes TAC is compulsory. The premium does differ for different "risk" categories (not by a great
    deal), but no, not for helmet wearers.

    But what is it?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The compulsory insurance is more problematic than the compulsory safety measures.

    WTF ? Of course it is. What is a compulsory safety measure ? Putting on a seat belt, obeying road
    rules etc vs. the complexity of sorting injury claims, fraud, defining payouts to long term
    injury/incapacitation.

    Not the implementation, the unfairness in its application.

    Some folks object to being "cossetted" by legislation. I find being charged for unfair insurance
    premiums far more problematic YMMV 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    I don't know what your point is, but if you are having a dig at Vics TAC, I'd think about it again.
    It is by far the best in Australia and one of the best in the world. Only some of the European
    countries match it. It's not perfect, but if you ever have a car accident, make sure you're a
    Victorian in Victoria.

    But I don't know what it is.

    In WA we have compulsory third party personal insurance paid on every vehicle whether it is driven
    100 miles per annum or 1000000 miles per annum. Problematic.

    Moosh🙂

  7. "Moosh🙂" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Thu, 29 May 2003 14:36:32 +1000, "RMan" <[email hidden]> wrote:


    [SNIP]

    Quoted message said:


    But I don't know what it is.

    see tac.vic.gov.autac.vic.gov.au

    TAC is like third party personal insurance, payable with a cars rego. It has a no fault system.

    Quoted message said:

    In WA we have compulsory third party personal insurance paid on every vehicle whether it is driven
    100 miles per annum or 1000000 miles per annum. Problematic.

    I see your point on that. 'Tis not easy. For TAC in Vic, motorcyclists pay more than cars. IIRC
    country motorists also pay more. Cyclists and pedestrians, who pay nothing, are also covered in
    accidents involving cars.

    As I said before, it's not a perfect system, there is some rorting, but is a bit of a global
    benchmark.

  8. "Moosh🙂" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Peter Signorini said:


    "Moosh🙂" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    Then how about we lobby our legislators to introduce a waiver of society's obligations to us

    Interesting idea - how about we apply it to drink drivers, and those who


    run

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    red lights to become vegetables choking up our nursing homes. But of


    course

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    must retain our obligations to all the Toorak health card holders.

    But drink drivers tend to take out others. Must be stopped.

    Exactly my point - we do accept a responsibility to them through TAC even though they have harmed
    others (often) and their behaviour has been grossly irresponsible. Failure to put a foam block on
    your head before pedalling your bike kinda pales into insignificance.

    Quoted message said:


    Seatbelts and helmets only risk the non-wearer, and society's subsequent responsibility to them
    and their dependents.

    If society accepts the need to look after the health care needs of Toorak citizens, or the 4WD
    transport of the squattocracy, then it is not unreasonable for all injured cyclists to be
    looked after.

    Cheers Peter

  9. Personal choice is fine I suppose..a bit like smoking..your choice.

    But not wearing a helmet is about as smart as riding at night without lights. Then I'm one who has come off and banged his head hard, fortunately with a helmet on.

    When it became mandatory in Sydney, I was against it..ugly..didn't want to look silly etc. And then those stories that everyone would stop riding if they had to wear helmets. I know there have been surveys, but can't see that it has made any difference to numbers.

    And people still either don't wear them here anyway, or hang them off their bars..that must be fashionable like car drivers not using indicators.

    So I don't think mandatory or not is such a big deal, and wearing one is still really your choice, but surely the risks of serious injury are greatly increased.

  10. Chester1 said:

    So I don't think mandatory or not is such a big deal, and wearing one is still really your choice,
    but surely the risks of serious injury are greatly increased.

    This debate has been going on since the begining of time, or when they first introduced manditory
    helmets, whichever came later....

    It always helps, but exactly how _much_ it helps depends on the type of riding you do.

    Slow, relatively inexpericed (younger?) riders- definately.

    Personally, when we go mountain biking, definately. Relatively slow speeds and high risk. Hard
    objects hitting your extremities or abdomen won't kill you, your head on the other hand....

    On the road, when we routinely ride 60-70Km/h down hills, a pissy 2cm thick foam hat with holes
    in it isn't going to save you.

    A fall of this type will most likely to shatter the helmet into a thousand pieces- and you haven't
    stopped moving yet. The purpose of a helmet is to evenly distribute the load, and reduce the total
    negative acceleration apon impact. A helmet doesn't do much if it's reduced to pieces.

    Getting hit by a car or truck, the helmet is wearing you for protection.

    Overall, it IS worth wearing a helmet, but claiming it's the saviour of all cyclists is more a
    political push than anything IMO.

    --
    Linux Registered User # 302622 <counter.li.orgcounter.li.org

  11. A report about the survey was publish in the West Australian last week. What dufus Marty forgot to
    mention was the helmet law was enacted in 1991, which did stunt the growth of cycling at the time.
    Nice try, but no points.

    GK

    Alan Erskine said:

    "Marty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The Planning and Infrastructure Department of Perth, Western Australia, says that a survey of 41
    bike paths in the city shows that the number of cyclists using them jumped from 2686 in 1999 to
    5286 this year. Any argument that says mandatory wearing of helmets deters people from cycling
    is clearly wrong!

    Marty

    Which survey are you referring to? When was the survey conducted (you mention "this year"😉?

    --
    Alan Erskine alanerskine(at)optusnet.com.au GWB the Ghengis Khan of the 21st Century

  12. (G) said:

    deal. A cyclist needs a full on king hit by a car to be killed, and in those cases, helmets
    don't help.

    Wrong. Simply falling, whether walking or riding, CAN be fatal: hit your head on the kerb, the
    concrete, the bitumen, a rock - and the consequences are likely to be serious. And THAT is where
    helmets DO offer some protection.

    ---
    Cheers

    PeterC

    [Rushing headlong: out of control - and there ain't no stopping]
    [and there's nothing you can do about it at all]

  13. [email hidden] (G) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Motorcycle helmets and seatbelts had a dramatic effect on reducing deaths. Cars were 4 times more
    dangerous to be in 30 years ago. Motorcyclist, still 20 times riskier than car driving, are in
    danger of dying by just falling off! A cyclist falling off scrapes his knee, big deal. A cyclist
    needs a full on king hit by a car to be killed, and in those cases, helmets don't help.

    Maybe that explains why we haven't seen the same dramatic reduction in fatalities with the
    introduction of the bicycle helmet law. Infact there was no reduction at all.

    Point is, if you let people ride motorbikes without helmets, the deathrate goes up, same for seat
    belts. But cyclist wearing helmets or not, makes no difference to the death rate.

    Kerbing the death rate is of no interest to me in this debate, I am pro choice 🙂 If your interest
    is in kerbing the "death rate", provide better health for African nations, you will save
    significantly more lives. If your interest is in telling other adults how they should protect
    themselves or put a starp around themselves, I disagree you have that right. Do you advoacate
    compulsory sunscreen legislation ? Cmpolsory wear helmets in cars ? etc etc

    What am I saying ? Educate, don't legislate (For Adults).

    As an aside, the comment on skinning your knee is [censored] IMO, go sit astride a pushbike, fall sideways
    and smack your head on the concrete, let me know how much it hurts ? Assuming you can still speak,
    maybe we need to legislate to protect the idiots of the community 😉

    Trevor S

  14. Chester1 <[email hidden]> wrote:
    : Personal choice is fine I suppose..a bit like smoking..your choice. But not wearing a helmet is
    : about as smart as riding at night without lights. When it became mandatory in Sydney, I was
    : against it..ugly..didn't want to look silly etc. And then those stories that everyone would stop
    : riding if they had to wear helmets. I know there have been surveys, but can't see that it has made
    : any difference to numbers.

    Personal impressions can be unreliable - sometimes we may go a different route, or ride at a
    different time and see a lot more cyclists, so we may think the number of cyclists has changed,
    when the numbers we see actualy changed because we did something different - moved house, changed
    workplace, uni, or school, or changed where we ride.

    Surveys data are important because they are designed to avoid such pitfalls by counting the same
    sites at the same time of day, same time of year and as near as possible to the same weather.

    In Melbourne, 36% fewer cyclists were counted at the same sites and times, compared to the year
    before the law. In NSW, the authorities stuffed up the survey design, so comparable pre- and
    post-law data is available only for children. 36% fewer children were counted at the same sites
    and times after the law with across the board reductions at school gates, recreational areas and
    road intersections, in inner and outer metropolitan areas and regional sites.
    agbu.une.edu.auvelo.html

    A longer series of data for Sydney is graphed at: cmaj.ca338
    It's not an ideal dataset - there's only one data point pre-law for both adults and children
    (Oct 90), a second point in April 1991 when there was a law for adults but not children, with
    further surveys until 1996. Other reports show a substantial (250%) increase in cycling in
    Sydney throughout the 1980s, suggesting that helmet laws had a significant and continued
    detrimental effect.

    Perhaps one of most interesting illustrations of the effect of helmet law on cycling is the graph
    of head and non-head injuries at: agbu.une.edu.auvelo.html
    The data comprise *numbers* of cyclists admitted to hospital
    a) with injuries to the head and b) with no head injury. The effect of the helmet law sticks out
    like a sore thumb. But curiously, the law has pretty much the same effect on numbers of head and
    non-head injuries. Can you tell which line is which? The most plausible explanation for the
    decline in both is that fewer people cycled after the law - as was also evident from the pre- and
    post-law street counts.

    : So I don't think mandatory or not is such a big deal, and wearing one is still really your choice,
    : but surely the risks of serious injury are greatly increased.

    We have been led to believe that, but there's no really good evidence that helmets make a great
    deal of difference. Another dataset (WA) is graphed at:
    agbu.une.edu.auwagph.htm These are percentages of hospitalized road users with
    an injury to the head. The helmet law increased helmet wearing rates from less than 39% of all
    cyclist to more than 80%. Can you identify when the law was introduced?

    Research suggests that the important factors determing the risk of head injury are how you ride
    and where you ride, including the average speed of motor vehicles and whether drivers expect to
    see cyclists when thet look out for traffic in order to give way at intersections or turing left
    or right into side roads.

    This may seem surprising, but hospital data show that, even though a lot of cyclists get injured
    by falling off their bikes, only a small proportion of these involve anything other than grazes
    to the head. If you define head injury as a minor concussion, other brain injury or skull
    fracture, the majority of these are caused by collisions with motor vehicles. I'd be pretty
    certain that a helmeted cyclist hit at 50 km/hr has a higher risk of serious head injury (or even
    death) than a non-helmeted rider hit at 40 km/hr.

    This means that it's far safer to ride without a helmet in areas where cyclists' rights are
    respected than wearing a helmet in areas where motorists may forget to look out for cyclists.
    This explains the problem with helmet laws. The relationship between numbers of cyclists and
    accident rate per cyclist has been modelled and found to obey what is known as a 'growth rule'.
    Very briefly, if the number of cyclists doubles, the accident rate per cyclist goes down by 37%.
    Conversely, if you apply the rule backwards and half the amount of cycling, the same rule shows
    that risk increases by 60% - which is a huge increase. (If you don't believe this, do the
    calculation yourself!).

    So, even though helmets may offer the individual cyclist some benefit, the overall effect of the
    laws was bad for the country, because people were discouraged from cycling and, with fewer people
    cycling, the injury rate per cyclist actually increased (relative to the same statistic for
    pedestrians).

    Another problem of discouraging cycling is that it is good for health. A new UK report has just
    been published with lots of references. You can read it at:
    agbu.une.edu.auUKCycling health.pdf

    The research into the growth rule is very new (it should be published soon in the international
    journal Injury Prevention) so the UK report can't cite it. However, p26 says: There is also the
    potential for reduced danger to cyclists through critical mass. This occurs when there are so
    many cyclists on the road that they can reasonably expect to be seen by motorists, who tend then
    to give them greater consideration. This is partly so because when there are relatively high
    levels of cycling (perhaps over 20%) then it is common for some motorists to also be cyclists. At
    present the case for a critical mass effect is largely intuitive although lowered risk to each
    cyclist per unit of exposure, as in cities such as York, Groningen and Copenhagen suggests that
    critical mass may have a positive influence in reducing danger to cyclists. Of course in
    locations where cycling is commonplace cycle friendly infrastructure is generally also
    commonplace.

    Of course, helmet laws aren't the only thing that affects the amount of cycling. The BikeWest
    team in WA has spent the past decade trying to encourage cycling. They have lots of recreational
    bike routes around the river and have spent a lot of money on other things, usually after
    comprehensive discussions with local cyclists groups. This doesn't imply that the helmet law
    isn't discouraging cycling - there'd almost certainly be even more people riding if there had
    been no law!

    So don't be too hard on those who ride without a helmet. They may be breaking the law (except
    adults in NT), but compared to people who don't cycle, they are saving us healthcare costs,
    producing less pollution, and, by reminding drivers to look out for cyclists, making the road
    safer for the rest of us. It's a pity that we can't get our Governments to do something sensible
    and publicise the safety benefits of having lights at night, riding on the correct side of the
    road, and obeying 'give way' and other traffic regulations, instead of putting out the idiotic
    message that the most important saftey step by cyclists is to wear a helmet!

    Ride safely, Dorre

  15. "Dorre" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Personal impressions can be unreliable - sometimes we may go a different route, or ride at a
    different time and see a lot more cyclists, so we may think the number of cyclists has
    changed,...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    So don't be too hard on those who ride without a helmet. They may be breaking the law (except
    adults in NT), but compared to people who don't cycle, they are saving us healthcare costs,
    producing less pollution, and, by reminding drivers to look out for cyclists, making the road
    safer for the rest of us. It's a pity that we can't get our Governments to do something
    sensible and publicise the safety benefits of having lights at night, riding on the correct
    side of the road, and obeying 'give way' and other traffic regulations, instead of putting out
    the idiotic message that the most important saftey step by cyclists is to wear a helmet!

    Fantastic critique of the helmet laws and their negative impacts for cyclists, Dorre.

    I would also like to see a change in the focus of the road authorities' education and enforcement.
    Safety is such a strange thing but it amazes me that people can't see the solutions that are right
    in front of their faces. The key to this whole issue is that cyclist safety was hijacked back in
    1990 by the surgeons, a group with their own very real experience, but practically nil experience of
    cycling or road safety laws and their enforcement. They had a powerful voice that governments
    listened to. It is going to take a major campaign by groups like BV to turn the focus around.

    Cheers Peter

  16. Peter Cremasco said:
    (G) said:

    deal. A cyclist needs a full on king hit by a car to be killed, and in those cases, helmets
    don't help.

    Wrong. Simply falling, whether walking or riding, CAN be fatal: hit your head on the kerb, the
    concrete, the bitumen, a rock - and the consequences are likely to be serious. And THAT is where
    helmets DO offer some protection.

    Try something common, your example is EXTREMELY rare.

    GK

  17. Trevor S said:

    [email hidden] (G) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Motorcycle helmets and seatbelts had a dramatic effect on reducing deaths. Cars were 4 times
    more dangerous to be in 30 years ago. Motorcyclist, still 20 times riskier than car driving, are
    in danger of dying by just falling off! A cyclist falling off scrapes his knee, big deal. A
    cyclist needs a full on king hit by a car to be killed, and in those cases, helmets don't help.

    Maybe that explains why we haven't seen the same dramatic reduction in fatalities with the
    introduction of the bicycle helmet law. Infact there was no reduction at all.

    Point is, if you let people ride motorbikes without helmets, the deathrate goes up, same for
    seat belts. But cyclist wearing helmets or not, makes no difference to the death rate.

    Kerbing the death rate is of no interest to me in this debate, I am pro choice 🙂 If your interest
    is in kerbing the "death rate", provide better health for African nations, you will save
    significantly more lives. If your interest is in telling other adults how they should protect
    themselves or put a starp around themselves, I disagree you have that right. Do you advoacate
    compulsory sunscreen legislation ? Cmpolsory wear helmets in cars ? etc etc

    What am I saying ? Educate, don't legislate (For Adults).

    As an aside, the comment on skinning your knee is [censored] IMO, go sit astride a pushbike, fall
    sideways and smack your head on the concrete, let me know how much it hurts ? Assuming you can
    still speak, maybe we need to legislate to protect the idiots of the community 😉

    Irrelevent, death by falling off a slow moving bike (without the help of a car) is extremely rare.
    Seat belt legislation is a good idea because it works. Bicycle helmet legislation does't. Pretty
    clear cut really.

    GK

  18. Whilst rampantly masturbating, on 8 Jun 2003

    17:00:01 +0950 said:

    Personal choice is fine I suppose..a bit like smoking..your choice.

    But not wearing a helmet is about as smart as riding at night without lights. Then I'm one who has
    come off and banged his head hard, fortunately with a helmet on.

    Does anyone actually know of anybody that's been fined for failing to wear a helmet?

  19. Whilst rampantly masturbating, on Mon, 9 Jun 2003

    15:57:53 +0800 said:


    Try something common, your example is EXTREMELY rare.

    GK

    Bumping your head is extremely rare? What the
    hell are you talking about? It makes me wish that
    mouth gags were compulsory for some people......

    ****************************************************
    Compromise, Conformity, Assimulation, Submission Ignorance, Hypocrisy, Brutality, The Elite All of
    which are American dreams....

    ****************************************************

  20. "G" wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Irrelevent, death by falling off a slow moving bike (without the help of a car) is extremely rare.
    Seat belt legislation is a good idea because it works. Bicycle helmet legislation does't. Pretty
    clear cut really.

    Motorcycle helmets are designed to protect the rider in an impact of not more than 22 km/h. Guess
    what that figure means. It means you can fall over from a standing position and survive when your
    head hits the ground (impact speed slightly less than 20km/h). So bicycle helmets do ...... what?

    Buy a clue.

    Theo

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.