Helmets

Richard said:

Jeff A said:

WTF was that smiley for? I've had a brain injury. I've never worn a
helmet to prevent an injury, just to reduce a potential one. I've
spent this pm in A&E saw brain specialists, saw my GP on Monday and
was in in A&E on Friday. All agreed that wearing a helmet reduced my
injury. I've got concussion. That's all besides a few cuts and
bruises that will heal.

Reduced your injury from what?

Smacking one part of my head directly against a sharp object.

Quoted message said:

I would be very surprised if A&E brain specialists and GPs were
sufficiently knowledgeable materials experts on polystyrene and its
impact-reducing and energy-absorbing properties to be accurate about
how much it reduced your concussion.

R.

I would be very surprised if you knew what you were talking about. You
weren't there.

Jeff A said:

Richard said:

Jeff A said:

WTF was that smiley for? I've had a brain injury. I've never worn a
helmet to prevent an injury, just to reduce a potential one. I've
spent this pm in A&E saw brain specialists, saw my GP on Monday and
was in in A&E on Friday. All agreed that wearing a helmet reduced my
injury. I've got concussion. That's all besides a few cuts and
bruises that will heal.

Reduced your injury from what?

Smacking one part of my head directly against a sharp object.

With any kind of lateral speed? Did it penetrate the polystyrene (sharp
objects are not stopped very well by polystyrene, you need a hard shell
for that like my old Bell V1 pro.

The reason for asking is that a rotational impact causes much more
damage to the brain than a linear impact, one fiftieth the force is
required to get permanent damage. If the object grabbed your helmet and
twisted the head it may have done more damage than not wearing the helmet.

Personally I wear a helmet off road when doing stuff where I may fall
off at slow speed. I don't do stuff where I have a reasonable
expectation of falling off at faster than a run onto hard surfaces. (on
road I have a very high expectation of not falling off at all).

On road I don't usually wear a helmet as the speeds are too great, well
outside the design parameters of a helmet, falling off is most unlikely,
and hitting my head even less so.

...d

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 22:14:21 -0000, "Jeff A" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

I've also heard stories about people being injured because they
were wearing seat belts in cars. It won't stop me wearing a seatbelt in a
car or a helmet on a bicycle.

Have you ever heard of the Isles Report?

Guy
--
"then came ye chavves, theyre cartes girded wyth candels
blue, and theyre beastes wyth straynge horn-lyke thyngs
onn theyre arses that theyre fartes be herde from myles
around." Chaucer, the Sheppey Tales

David WE Roberts said:

What I have not seen so far is any proposal to campaign for a better, more
scientific set of standards for cycling helmets.

Did you know that the latest change made to the safety standards for
bicycle helmets was to revise them *down*, to make them *weaker* and
*less* protective? Do you know *why* they did that?

Fat chance under those circs of getting them to revise up again!

Quoted message said:

If people are being sold protective gear which is not 'fit for purpose'
then surely cyclist should be campaigning for the proper design and
development of safety gear.

You'd first have to convince the intelligent and scientifically
well-educated cyclists that cycling was dangerous enough to need
safety gear. Given that it's already well established that it's
possibly safer than walking, and very definitely a lot safer than
walking down stairs, how do you propose to do that?

Quoted message said:

Campaigning for people not to wear helmets carries a strong message that
cyclists are against reasonable safety precautions.

I'm very much in favour of reasonable safety precautions. You should
see what I wear on a motorcycle!

Cycle helmets were introduced long after I started cycling. I looked
into the question in order to decide whether to get one, and the more
I looked, the more I came to the conclusion that cycle helmets are a
marketing scam supported by bad science, scare tactics, and a gullible
public.

I do agree, on the other hand, that there's a good case for skate
boarders to wear knee pads and tough gloves.

Quoted message said:

So - (for the anti-helmet brigade) if safety helmet design was revised and
a helmet of proven worth was produced, would you wear it or would you
still be against it?

I guess you must be new round here.

After they first introduced it, they did later revise it. Since they
revised it to make the standard *lower* and the protection *weaker*,
I'm still against it.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Richard said:

Jeff A said:

WTF was that smiley for? I've had a brain injury. I've never worn a helmet
to prevent an injury, just to reduce a potential one. I've spent this pm in
A&E saw brain specialists, saw my GP on Monday and was in in A&E on Friday.
All agreed that wearing a helmet reduced my injury. I've got concussion.
That's all besides a few cuts and bruises that will heal.

Quoted message said:

Reduced your injury from what?

Quoted message said:

I would be very surprised if A&E brain specialists and GPs were
sufficiently knowledgeable materials experts on polystyrene and its
impact-reducing and energy-absorbing properties to be accurate about how
much it reduced your concussion.

Or indeed whether it actually increased the concussion, which if the
concussion was due to rotational forces, which are much more dangerous
than straight decleration forces, it probably did.

Did they tell you which kind of force your concussion was due to? Did
they even know?

If they didn't, their opinion is worth no more than my Mum's.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Jeff A said:

I would be very surprised if you knew what you were talking about. You
weren't there.

Nor, I would guess, were the doctors who assumed it would have helped.

The fact is that nobody knows without a proper control experiment, and
you haven't got that.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Jeff A said:

Quoted message said:

Reduced your injury from what?

Smacking one part of my head directly against a sharp object.

Duh. No, I mean, did any of your doctors offer an opinion into
*quantifiably* how much worse your concussion would have been sans helmet?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would be very surprised if A&E brain specialists and GPs were
sufficiently knowledgeable materials experts on polystyrene and its
impact-reducing and energy-absorbing properties to be accurate about
how much it reduced your concussion.

I would be very surprised if you knew what you were talking about. You
weren't there.

No, I wasn't. However, I do know that medical students don't have any
training in material properties of polystyrene as part of their medical
degree(s). Therefore for them to express, as fact, an opinion based on
such, without any qualifiers, is IMO dangerous and misleading.

Best wishes for a quick recovery from your concussion.

R.

David Martin said:

Jeff A said:

Richard said:

Jeff A wrote:

> WTF was that smiley for? I've had a brain injury. I've never worn a
> helmet to prevent an injury, just to reduce a potential one. I've
> spent this pm in A&E saw brain specialists, saw my GP on Monday and
> was in in A&E on Friday. All agreed that wearing a helmet reduced
> my injury. I've got concussion. That's all besides a few cuts and
> bruises that will heal.

Reduced your injury from what?

Smacking one part of my head directly against a sharp object.

With any kind of lateral speed? Did it penetrate the polystyrene
(sharp objects are not stopped very well by polystyrene, you need a
hard shell for that like my old Bell V1 pro.

Probably about only 10mph but staight into the corner of a brick wall. My
helmet was damaged. My neck really aches today.

Quoted message said:

The reason for asking is that a rotational impact causes much more
damage to the brain than a linear impact, one fiftieth the force is
required to get permanent damage. If the object grabbed your helmet
and twisted the head it may have done more damage than not wearing
the helmet.

Fair enough, but I do wonder if hitting my head in THIS circumstance reduced
a probably gash to my head and possibly a fracture. I don't know. Maybe the
ache to my neck is more serious.

Quoted message said:

Personally I wear a helmet off road when doing stuff where I may fall
off at slow speed. I don't do stuff where I have a reasonable
expectation of falling off at faster than a run onto hard surfaces.
(on road I have a very high expectation of not falling off at all).

To some extent I agree with you there, I actually find most motorists
courteous but you can never be 100% certaian of a motorist pulling out. Eg I
was in a bus crash on Monday. The motorist hadn't seen the bus!

Quoted message said:

On road I don't usually wear a helmet as the speeds are too great,
well outside the design parameters of a helmet, falling off is most
unlikely, and hitting my head even less so.

..d

Regards

Peter Clinch said:

Jeff A said:

I would be very surprised if you knew what you were talking about.
You weren't there.

Nor, I would guess, were the doctors who assumed it would have helped.

With hindsight I think I agree with you.

Quoted message said:

The fact is that nobody knows without a proper control experiment, and
you haven't got that.

I haven't

Quoted message said:

Pete.

Regards

Just zis Guy said:

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 22:14:21 -0000, "Jeff A" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

I've also heard stories about people being injured because they
were wearing seat belts in cars. It won't stop me wearing a seatbelt
in a car or a helmet on a bicycle.

Have you ever heard of the Isles Report?

Guy

Yes

Tony Raven said:

Jeff A said:

I spent 4 hours in A&E last night (Yes, a Friday night, full of
drunks etc - not me BTW) because I fell off my bike due to someone
else's incompetance (which I couldn't have anticipated) and was
knocked unconcious. The gash on my knee will heal as will the sprain
in right hand. I'm not bothered about that. Cuts heal. But-my head
took a big bang. The doc reckoned wearing a helmet was very wise. I
had concussion. That could have been a lot worse without a helmet in
THIS particular case.

Commiserations but you and he can never know whether the helmet made
it a lot better or a lot worse. In either case it did not prevent
concussion in what sounds like the sort of fall its designed to work
in.

Quoted message said:

Wearing a helmet makes me feel more comfortable. I don't take bigger
risks. No accident is the same but I just prefer to wear one just in
case.

That's all that matters with the current state of knowledge - how you
feel about it and whether it makes you more or less inclined to cycle.

Tony

I don't anything to stop me cycling. I really enjoy it.

Regards

Richard said:

Jeff A said:

Quoted message said:

Reduced your injury from what?

Smacking one part of my head directly against a sharp object.

Duh. No, I mean, did any of your doctors offer an opinion into
*quantifiably* how much worse your concussion would have been sans
helmet?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would be very surprised if A&E brain specialists and GPs were
sufficiently knowledgeable materials experts on polystyrene and its
impact-reducing and energy-absorbing properties to be accurate about
how much it reduced your concussion.

I would be very surprised if you knew what you were talking about.
You weren't there.

No, I wasn't. However, I do know that medical students don't have any
training in material properties of polystyrene as part of their
medical degree(s). Therefore for them to express, as fact, an
opinion based on such, without any qualifiers, is IMO dangerous and
misleading.
Best wishes for a quick recovery from your concussion.

R.

Thanks :-)

Chris Malcolm said:

Richard said:

Jeff A said:

WTF was that smiley for? I've had a brain injury. I've never worn a
helmet to prevent an injury, just to reduce a potential one. I've
spent this pm in A&E saw brain specialists, saw my GP on Monday and
was in in A&E on Friday. All agreed that wearing a helmet reduced
my injury. I've got concussion. That's all besides a few cuts and
bruises that will heal.

Quoted message said:

Reduced your injury from what?

Quoted message said:

I would be very surprised if A&E brain specialists and GPs were
sufficiently knowledgeable materials experts on polystyrene and its
impact-reducing and energy-absorbing properties to be accurate about
how much it reduced your concussion.

Or indeed whether it actually increased the concussion, which if the
concussion was due to rotational forces, which are much more dangerous
than straight decleration forces, it probably did.

Did they tell you which kind of force your concussion was due to? Did
they even know?

If they didn't, their opinion is worth no more than my Mum's.

That's a very good point. I got prodded, torch in my eyes and that was about
it.

Jeff A said:

Tony Raven said:

Jeff A said:

I spent 4 hours in A&E last night (Yes, a Friday night, full of
drunks etc - not me BTW) because I fell off my bike due to someone
else's incompetance (which I couldn't have anticipated) and was
knocked unconcious. The gash on my knee will heal as will the sprain
in right hand. I'm not bothered about that. Cuts heal. But-my head
took a big bang. The doc reckoned wearing a helmet was very wise. I
had concussion. That could have been a lot worse without a helmet in
THIS particular case.

Commiserations but you and he can never know whether the helmet made
it a lot better or a lot worse. In either case it did not prevent
concussion in what sounds like the sort of fall its designed to work
in.

Quoted message said:

Wearing a helmet makes me feel more comfortable. I don't take bigger
risks. No accident is the same but I just prefer to wear one just in
case.

That's all that matters with the current state of knowledge - how you
feel about it and whether it makes you more or less inclined to
cycle. Tony

I don't anything to stop me cycling. I really enjoy it.

Regards

Sorry, that should have been:

I don't want anything to stop me cycling.

Richard said:

Jeff A said:

Quoted message said:

Reduced your injury from what?

Smacking one part of my head directly against a sharp object.

Duh. No, I mean, did any of your doctors offer an opinion into
*quantifiably* how much worse your concussion would have been sans
helmet?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would be very surprised if A&E brain specialists and GPs were
sufficiently knowledgeable materials experts on polystyrene and its
impact-reducing and energy-absorbing properties to be accurate about
how much it reduced your concussion.

I would be very surprised if you knew what you were talking about.
You weren't there.

No, I wasn't. However, I do know that medical students don't have any
training in material properties of polystyrene as part of their
medical degree(s). Therefore for them to express, as fact, an
opinion based on such, without any qualifiers, is IMO dangerous and
misleading.

Good point

Quoted message said:

Best wishes for a quick recovery from your concussion.

Thanks.

I always avoid posting to usenet when I've had a drink. Perhaps I should
refrain from when I've had a bang on the head.

Thank you to all that have replied

Regards

Jeff

Quoted message said:

R.

Just zis Guy said:

Where we differ is in the emphasis we place on the two halves of that
sentence.

According to a very large body of evidence, helmets make no
significant difference to head injury rates at the population level.
So either the doctors are wrong and helmets make no measurable
difference, or the doctors are right but cyclists respond to the
perceived extra protection by taking more risks.

As proposed by Mok et. al, in fact. And Adams. And Hilllman.

Quoted message said:

Troll?

YA John D'oh & ICMFP :-)

Guy

OK point taken.I'll google for those reports this evening.

But all I'm trying to convey , not very well by the sounds of it, is that
all accidents differ. I just feel more comfortable with a helmet and don't
take any more risks. I'd never really thought about the potential risks of
helmets until now. Thanks for the info.

Regards.

"Jeff A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OK point taken.I'll google for those reports this evening.

But all I'm trying to convey , not very well by the sounds of it, is that
all accidents differ. I just feel more comfortable with a helmet and don't
take any more risks.

This is exactly how risk compensation works - people do take more risks,
they just aren't aware of it.

(how did you crash?) <- This bit meant to be in an inquisitive tone of
voice - I'm not about to say that you wouldn't have crashed without a helmet
on.

cheers,
clive

Jeff A said:

I just feel more comfortable with a helmet and don't
take any more risks.

So you're saying your helmet makes you feel safer, but it doesn't
affect how you assess teh safety of an activity?

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 13:15:33 -0000, "Jeff A" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

But all I'm trying to convey , not very well by the sounds of it, is that
all accidents differ.

I agree entirely.

Quoted message said:

I just feel more comfortable with a helmet

Fairy nuff.

Quoted message said:

and don't take any more risks.

Are you sure of that? I wouldn't put money on it myself

Quoted message said:

I'd never really thought about the potential risks of
helmets until now. Thanks for the info.

Informed choice is the aim, whatever that choice might be :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Ian Smith said:

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 13:15:33 -0000, Jeff A <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I just feel more comfortable with a helmet and don't
take any more risks.

So you're saying your helmet makes you feel safer, but it doesn't
affect how you assess teh safety of an activity?

regards, Ian SMith

I know all about COSHH, HACCP blah blah.If I spent all my time assessing the
safety of activities I wouldn't get of bed. But perhaps I would, because of
bed sores, lack of exercise, etc. You get the point.

TBH after reading some of the posts in this thread I am beginning to wonder
about the safety of helmets. I'm learning and listening to people who know
better than I do. I will make my own assessment.Correctly or incorrectly.BUT
accidents happen.