Helmets are compulsory



Tilly wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:18:26 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>>"Over 9,000 children are killed or seriously injured on our roads
>>>>each year and of these 63% are pedestrians. In other words, this
>>>>activity is more dangerous than cycling or travelling in a car."
>>>
>>>
>>>That is very misleading.
>>>

>>
>>How?

>
>
> It does not give a fair comparison between time spent in a car, on a
> bike or on foot, or a comparison between distance travelled in a car,
> on a bike or on foot, or a comparison between journeys in a car, on a
> bike or by foot.


There is plenty of other data. For example per km cyling is 30% safer
than walking so the proposition is correct.

But certainly much less misleading than your presenting novice cyclist
falls being unusually frequent as being unusually dangerous.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:00:13 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Tilly:
>> If a swimming pool has a rule that caps must be worn including for
>> school lessons you have a similar choice. Seek special exemption or
>> withdraw your child from school swimming lessons.
>>
>> This is not an ethical problem.

>
>That is an entirely different proposition. Swimming caps do not impact
>on a child's safety. They are usually required for pool cleanliness and
>to prevent hair blocking the pool filters


I'll change the scenario then:

If a swimming pool has a rule that arm bands must be worn by complete
novices, including for school lessons, and you don't want your child
to learn to swim wearing arm bands because you believe it encourages
risk compensation, you have a choice. Seek special exemption or
withdraw your child from school swimming lessons.
 
in message <[email protected]>, Tony Raven
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Tilly wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Would you agree that this argument is not valid for novice cyclists
>>>>learning to cycle in a playground?
>>>
>>>So you expect them to wear motor cycle helmets?

>>
>>
>> Children would love that - but no, I would not expect them to wear
>> motor cycle helmets.

>
> Full face ones at the very least though?
> http://www.rcsed.ac.uk/journal/vol44_2/4420005.htm


That's why /when/ I wear a helmet, I wear this one
<URL:http://www.met-helmets.com/ProdottiDet.jsp?idrub=142&idcat=13>

The overwhelming majority of falls I've seen which led to the head
hitting the ground have been face-plants, which a conventional helmet
offers no protection whatever against. I really cannot see the point of
wearing a helmet which does not protect the most vulnerable and most
delicate parts of the head.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; So, before proceeding with definitive screwing, choose the
;; position most congenital.
-- instructions for fitting bicycle handlebars
 
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:18:51 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote:

>> It does not give a fair comparison between time spent in a car, on a
>> bike or on foot, or a comparison between distance travelled in a car,
>> on a bike or on foot, or a comparison between journeys in a car, on a
>> bike or by foot.

>
>There is plenty of other data. For example per km cyling is 30% safer
>than walking so the proposition is correct.


And is that not also misleading: the elderly and infirm are among the
most likely groups to suffer a fall while walking but among the least
likely to be riding a bike, as just one example of how it's
misleading.

>But certainly much less misleading than your presenting novice cyclist
>falls being unusually frequent as being unusually dangerous.


What I hoped to show was that novice cyclists are most likely to fall
and therefore most likely to suffer a head injury. The type of fall
they are most likely to suffer is the type of fall a helmet is most
likely to minimise injury.

Lots of *most liklies* there which might multiply out to a *good
chance*!
 
On 07/02/2005 16:00:13 Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tilly wrote:


>> If a swimming pool has a rule that caps must be worn including for school
>> lessons you have a similar choice. Seek special exemption or withdraw
>> your child from school swimming lessons.


>> This is not an ethical problem.


> That is an entirely different proposition. Swimming caps do not impact on
> a child's safety. They are usually required for pool cleanliness and to
> prevent hair blocking the pool filters


How about the non wearing of chain mail?

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 07/02/2005 15:57:43 Tilly <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> There have been a total of six incidents involving a child losing control
> of their bike and the bike ending up on the ground. Only one incident
> resulted in any noticeable injury, a slight graze treated with an
> antiseptic wipe, for all other incidents there were no noticeable
> injuries.


> 5 incidents occurred in the playground, 1 incident on the road.


> 2 incidents occurred to a complete novice, 4 to children with some
> experience.


Did any of the incidents involve the childs helmet hitting the ground?


--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
Tilly wrote:
>
> I'll change the scenario then:
>
> If a swimming pool has a rule that arm bands must be worn by complete
> novices, including for school lessons, and you don't want your child
> to learn to swim wearing arm bands because you believe it encourages
> risk compensation, you have a choice. Seek special exemption or
> withdraw your child from school swimming lessons.


Or do what I am doing here and try to get the decision makers to
understand why their decision was wrong and get them to correct it. We
have taken on the school and LEA on a number of topics and got them to
change their policies (which they now seem to be very enthusiastic about)

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
Buck wrote:
>
> How about the non wearing of chain mail?
>


WTF?

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
On 07/02/2005 16:48:31 Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck wrote:


>> How about the non wearing of chain mail?


> WTF?


LOL, I wouldn't want my child to swim while wearing chaimail, but these
public schools.......

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:41:47 GMT, Buck
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>On 07/02/2005 15:57:43 Tilly <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> There have been a total of six incidents involving a child losing control
>> of their bike and the bike ending up on the ground. Only one incident
>> resulted in any noticeable injury, a slight graze treated with an
>> antiseptic wipe, for all other incidents there were no noticeable
>> injuries.

>
>> 5 incidents occurred in the playground, 1 incident on the road.

>
>> 2 incidents occurred to a complete novice, 4 to children with some
>> experience.

>
>Did any of the incidents involve the childs helmet hitting the ground?


No. If it did I'd probably have to loan the child a spare then advise
the parent to get a new one. A conflict might arise if the child
turned up the next week with the same helmet, then I'd have to make a
decision to let the child continue the training with a potentially
damaged helmet, loan the child a helmet or refuse to train the child.

If I'm honest I'd probably go for option 1, and justify it to myself
as parental choice.
 
"Tilly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 13:31:52 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I am open to persuasion. At least, I think I am. I have been
> >persuaded to change my mind once on this issue, after all.

>
> How about a little anecdotal evidence based on my limited experience
> as a cycling instructor.
>
> I have now instructed for 32 hours, 23 hours on road and 9 hours in
> the playground. 31 hours have been with children with at least some
> experience, and 1 hour with a complete novice.
>
> If I multiply the number of children in each group by the number of
> hours I get a total of 154 cycling hours: 1 cycling hour for a
> complete novice and 153 cycling hours for children with some
> experience. Of those 153 cycling hours 44 have been in the playground
> and 109 on road.
>
> There have been a total of six incidents involving a child losing
> control of their bike and the bike ending up on the ground. Only one
> incident resulted in any noticeable injury, a slight graze treated
> with an antiseptic wipe, for all other incidents there were no
> noticeable injuries.
>
> 5 incidents occurred in the playground, 1 incident on the road.
>
> 2 incidents occurred to a complete novice, 4 to children with some
> experience.
>
> Dividing cyclist hours by incidents we have:
>
> 1 incident every 8.8 playground cyclist hours;
> 1 incident every 109 road cyclist hours.
>
> 1 incident every 38.25 some experience cyclist hours;
> 2 incidents every complete novice cyclist hours.
>
> I conclude on this very low data that a child is about 12 times more
> likely to have an incident in the playground than on the road, and
> that a novice cyclist is about 76.5 times more likely to have an
> incident than a cyclist with at least some experience.
>
> This anecdotal evident supports that which I have already said: a
> child is more likely to be injured in the playground when cycling
> skills are being challenged than on the road where real life
> situations are being explored. And that a novice is more likely to
> suffer an injury than a cyclist with some experience.
>
> It also supports CTUK's risk assessment: for a complete novice the
> risk of a fall is high, for all other riders the risk is very low.


However, you will agree that the evidence is anecdotal based on a very small
sample -- hence, possibly not particularly informative.

> Can we agree that it is far more likely for a complete novice to
> suffer a fall?


This seems likely.

> Can we then go on to agree that it is far more likely for a complete
> novice to suffer a head injury?


I'm not sure we can. Novices are likely to be travelling very slowly.
Indeed, learning to ride a bike is largely about having the confidence and
the control to go fast enough so as not to fall off. Slow speed falls seem
to predominantly result in knee and hand/arm injuries. ***

However, it has to be accepted that, if the probability of a head injury is
about the same for a novice as for an experienced cyclist (which I doubt but
for which I have no data) then your hypothisis would be correct.

> Can we also agree that for the type of fall likely to be suffered by a
> complete novice helmets are most effective.


No -- for the reasons stated above. The falls will be predominantly low
speed. They will predominantly be in a 'safe place' (i.e. should be devoid
of kerbs etc.)

> Can we then go on to agree a wording to the effect of: *While cycling
> is a safe and healthy activity, it makes good sense for complete
> novices to wear helmets when learning to ride a bicycle in a school
> playground.*


Insufficient data to judge.

And that is the problem. Too many people jump to conclusions for which
there is insufficient evidence -- indeed I can be accused of doing it above
(see ***) The only thing that I think we can say is that many parents may
feel more comfortable if their little bundle of genetic inheritance has some
protective gear on. I suspect (but have no evidence) that wrist, elbow and
knee pads would be more useful.

T

PS -- I did suffer a fairly major fall aged 11. Broken arm, broken teeth,
lacerations (fairly minor though quite scary enough for my Gran) to face,
arms and knees -- slight concussion. All (except for the teeth that had to
be crowned) mended naturally with a vanishingly small amount of scaring. I
have no evidence -- but given the exact form of the injuries I suspect that
a helmet would have been of very limited effect. It would have not
protected my arm (which did its job of breaking my fall), or knees. It
might have protected my forehead (where the lacerations were very minor) and
reduced the concussion at the expense of tipping my head further back so
exposing my chin and mouth to additional damage. In extremis it may have
caused some neck injuries.

Statistically insignificant -- but can you imagine the lecture Gran would
have got from a modern triage nurse?
 
On 07/02/2005 16:57:37 Tilly <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:41:47 GMT, Buck <[email protected]>
> wrote:


>> On 07/02/2005 15:57:43 Tilly <[email protected]> wrote:


>>> There have been a total of six incidents involving a child losing
>>> control of their bike and the bike ending up on the ground. Only one
>>> incident resulted in any noticeable injury, a slight graze treated with
>>> an antiseptic wipe, for all other incidents there were no noticeable
>>> injuries.


>>> 5 incidents occurred in the playground, 1 incident on the road.


>>> 2 incidents occurred to a complete novice, 4 to children with some
>>> experience.


>> Did any of the incidents involve the childs helmet hitting the ground?


> No.


Well in that case, your position on the likely hood of children haveing more
accidents may be justified but by your own statement, your requirement for helmet usage in totally un justified, you have to agree that helmet wearing has not prevented one injury in any of the incidents that have occurred while you have been training the kids.

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 07/02/2005 17:13:25 Buck <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 07/02/2005 16:57:37 Tilly <[email protected]> wrote:


>> On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:41:47 GMT, Buck <[email protected]>
>> wrote:


>>> On 07/02/2005 15:57:43 Tilly <[email protected]> wrote:


>>>> There have been a total of six incidents involving a child losing
>>>> control of their bike and the bike ending up on the ground. Only one
>>>> incident resulted in any noticeable injury, a slight graze treated with
>>>> an antiseptic wipe, for all other incidents there were no noticeable
>>>> injuries.


>>>> 5 incidents occurred in the playground, 1 incident on the road.


>>>> 2 incidents occurred to a complete novice, 4 to children with some
>>>> experience.


>>> Did any of the incidents involve the childs helmet hitting the ground?


>> No.


> Well in that case, your position on the likely hood of children haveing
> more accidents may be justified but by your own statement, your
> requirement for helmet usage in totally un justified, you have to agree
> that helmet wearing has not prevented one injury in any of the incidents
> that have occurred while you have been training the kids.


Also your experience fails to show any likelyhood that children or novices cycling are in any way likely to suffer more head injuries than adults or
experienced riders, in fact your anecdotal evidence would suggest that in
100% of accidents involving children on bicycles, helmet usage is irrelevant
because no head injuries occured or were likely to occur.

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
Tilly wrote:
>
>
> And is that not also misleading: the elderly and infirm are among the
> most likely groups to suffer a fall while walking but among the least
> likely to be riding a bike, as just one example of how it's
> misleading.
>


Curious then that the OECD study on vulnerable road users showed that
the 0-14 cyclist to pedestrian fatality ratio was roughly the same as
the 65+ cyclist to pedestrian fatality ratio


>
> What I hoped to show was that novice cyclists are most likely to fall
> and therefore most likely to suffer a head injury. The type of fall
> they are most likely to suffer is the type of fall a helmet is most
> likely to minimise injury.
>


Seems in all the personal experienced you posted, in 154 hours cycling
and six incidents, the worst outcome was one graze which would have been
better prevented by wearing suitable clothing/gloves or carrying out the
training, as someone else suggested, on grass.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
Buck wrote:
>
> On 07/02/2005 16:48:31 Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Buck wrote:

>
>
>>>How about the non wearing of chain mail?

>
>
>>WTF?

>
>
> LOL, I wouldn't want my child to swim while wearing chaimail, but these
> public schools.......
>


And if you were told they must wear chain mail or no swimming lessons at
school what would be your reaction?

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
I read the items you refered to as well as a number of others. My overall
impression from this is that the information on the subject is riddled with
inconsistancies, and that there is not a really clear case for or against
the sort of protective headgear currently available. Having said that
because of the general blame culture, and particularly that associated with
school children, the Governors would be wise to seek written agreement from
the parent that they accept that there is a potential risk and that they
accept that. A very sad state of affairs!

Peter Crosland
 
Buck wrote:

>
> Well in that case, your position on the likely hood of children
> haveing more accidents may be justified but by your own statement,
> your requirement for helmet usage in totally un justified, you have
> to agree that helmet wearing has not prevented one injury in any of
> the incidents that have occurred while you have been training the
> kids.
>


But, but, but, but...... if they hadn't been wearing helmets they would
all be dead now surely. As it was they got away with a slight graze
thanks to the magic of polystyrene.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
On 07/02/2005 17:19:59 Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck wrote:


>> On 07/02/2005 16:48:31 Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:


>>> Buck wrote:


>>>> How about the non wearing of chain mail?


>>> WTF?


>> LOL, I wouldn't want my child to swim while wearing chaimail, but these
>> public schools.......


> And if you were told they must wear chain mail or no swimming lessons at
> school what would be your reaction?


It depends if the Kraken lived in the school swimming pool.

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 07/02/2005 17:21:55 Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck wrote:


>> Well in that case, your position on the likely hood of children haveing
>> more accidents may be justified but by your own statement, your
>> requirement for helmet usage in totally un justified, you have to agree
>> that helmet wearing has not prevented one injury in any of the incidents
>> that have occurred while you have been training the kids.


> But, but, but, but...... if they hadn't been wearing helmets they would
> all be dead now surely. As it was they got away with a slight graze
> thanks to the magic of polystyrene.


Damn! Foiled by the old "helmet prevents leg injury" argument.
--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:30:22 +0100, Tilly <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>>Would you agree that this argument is not valid for novice cyclists
>>>learning to cycle in a playground?


>>From the post to which I was replying:


>> "When one sees the sort of speeds and conditions encountered
>> in road races I do wonder why something more like a motorcycle
>> helmet might be more appropriate though I can understand that
>> this would present its own problems."


[ snippety ]

>I repeat the question.
>Would you agree that this argument is not valid for novice cyclists
>learning to cycle in a playground?


I repeat the answer: unless your class includes Ullrich Minor and
Armstrong Junior, I would think not.

But then, it was not posted in that context.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 

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