Helmets - Brussels adds to the debate



A

Andrew Price

Guest
In a "Green Paper" published by the European Commission entitled
"Towards a new culture for urban mobility":

<http://ec.europa.eu/transport/clean/green_paper_urban_transport/doc/2007_09_25_gp_urban_mobility_en.pdf>

one can read on page 18:

"Stakeholders have also suggested encouraging safe behaviour among
cyclists, for example by promoting the use of bicycle helmets across
Europe or by encouraging research on more ergonomic design of
helmets."

I'd have appreciated it were the Commission to have said exactly who
these "Stakeholders" are, and what their evidence is - otherwise, the
uncharitable interpretation might be that once again, the EC is being
used by lobbyists to attain commercial goals.
 
P

Paul Boyd

Guest
Andrew Price said the following on 07/02/2008 16:00:

> "Stakeholders have also suggested encouraging safe behaviour among
> cyclists, for example by promoting the use of bicycle helmets across
> Europe or by encouraging research on more ergonomic design of
> helmets."


Well, they're obviously aware of the upsurge of off-road cycling where a
helmet may actually be of some use.

The above comment may contain some sarcasm.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
N

Nick Kew

Guest
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:00:14 +0100
Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:

> In a "Green Paper" published by the European Commission entitled
> "Towards a new culture for urban mobility":
>
> <http://ec.europa.eu/transport/clean/green_paper_urban_transport/doc/2007_09_25_gp_urban_mobility_en.pdf>
>
> one can read on page 18:
>
> "Stakeholders have also suggested encouraging safe behaviour among
> cyclists, for example by promoting the use of bicycle helmets across
> Europe or by encouraging research on more ergonomic design of
> helmets."


Yay!

If Brussels are promoting them, it shouldn't be too long before the
UK press declare them an absolute evil imposition. Sometime after
that, we might even get a journalist doing some research.

--
not me guv
 
S

Squashme

Guest
On 7 Feb, 16:00, Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:
> In a "Green Paper" published by the European Commission entitled
> "Towards a new culture for urban mobility":
>
> <http://ec.europa.eu/transport/clean/green_paper_urban_transport/doc/2...>
>
> one can read on page 18:
>
> "Stakeholders have also suggested encouraging safe behaviour among
> cyclists, for example by promoting the use of bicycle helmets across
> Europe or by encouraging research on more ergonomic design of
> helmets."
>
> I'd have appreciated it were the Commission to have said exactly who
> these "Stakeholders" are, and what their evidence is - otherwise, the
> uncharitable interpretation might be that once again, the EC is being
> used by lobbyists to attain commercial goals.


I think that the "Stakeholders" may be a reference to the bloke who
walked out from behind a van this morning right in front of my bike.
He had a pile of stakes, well, 8 foot long 4x2s or similar, over his
shoulder, and they were right at my face level. I screeched "nnnaaaa,
Jesus!", braked, and spat the remains of my breakfast out, and he
reacted with surprising promptness for one so young and stupid,
stopping dead.
My wife asked later if I was wearing my helmet. I was, but pointed out
it's inutility in such an event. (However I did think that I could
have dipped my face and presented my helmet to the timbery road-block.
I'll try this next time, and report. If I don't report, you will know
that it was a silly idea.)
 
Z

Zog The Undeniable

Guest
Andrew Price wrote:
> In a "Green Paper" published by the European Commission entitled
> "Towards a new culture for urban mobility":
>
> <http://ec.europa.eu/transport/clean/green_paper_urban_transport/doc/2007_09_25_gp_urban_mobility_en.pdf>
>
> one can read on page 18:
>
> "Stakeholders have also suggested encouraging safe behaviour among
> cyclists, for example by promoting the use of bicycle helmets across
> Europe or by encouraging research on more ergonomic design of
> helmets."


When riding into work a few weeks ago, I fell and hit my head quite
badly, leaving me with a big lump and a headache. A helmet would have
saved me...except that I had got off the bike and was walking at the
time (long story).

Bloody dangerous things, legs, and they should be banned.
 
M

Martin Dann

Guest
In message <[email protected]>
Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:

> In a "Green Paper" published by the European Commission entitled
> "Towards a new culture for urban mobility":
>
> <http://ec.europa.eu/transport/clean/green_paper_urban_transport/doc/2007_09_25_gp_urban_mobility_en.pdf>
>
> one can read on page 18:
>
> "Stakeholders have also suggested encouraging safe behaviour among
> cyclists, for example by promoting the use of bicycle helmets across
> Europe or by encouraging research on more ergonomic design of
> helmets."
>
> I'd have appreciated it were the Commission to have said exactly who
> these "Stakeholders" are, and what their evidence is - otherwise, the
> uncharitable interpretation might be that once again, the EC is being
> used by lobbyists to attain commercial goals.



Stakeholders is the fancy new word for Subjects. In this instance probably a
single issue pressure group that had the ear of some European Bureaucrat.
Why not encourage some research into the effectiveness of the things, or are
they scared they won't get the results they want.
 
P

Paul Luton

Guest
Andrew Price wrote:
> In a "Green Paper" published by the European Commission entitled
> "Towards a new culture for urban mobility":
>
> <http://ec.europa.eu/transport/clean/green_paper_urban_transport/doc/2007_09_25_gp_urban_mobility_en.pdf>
>
> one can read on page 18:
>
> "Stakeholders have also suggested encouraging safe behaviour among
> cyclists, for example by promoting the use of bicycle helmets across
> Europe or by encouraging research on more ergonomic design of
> helmets."


and on the next line " Strict enforcement of traffic rules is also
essential for all motorcyclists, scooter drivers and cyclists. " which
looks like more of "blame the victims".

Paul






--
CTC Right to Ride Rep. for Richmond upon Thames
 
M

Mark T

Guest
Martin Dann writtificated

> Why not encourage some research into the effectiveness of the things,
> or are they scared they won't get the results they want.


The problem is that no one has even considered that a thin, brittle layer
of polystyrene might be ineffective at reducing the KSI rate :-/

Given the relative safety (and low mileage) of cycling a European wide
study might be a good idea.
 
B

burtthebike

Guest
"Nick Kew" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:00:14 +0100
> Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In a "Green Paper" published by the European Commission entitled
>> "Towards a new culture for urban mobility":
>>
>> <http://ec.europa.eu/transport/clean/green_paper_urban_transport/doc/2007_09_25_gp_urban_mobility_en.pdf>
>>
>> one can read on page 18:
>>
>> "Stakeholders have also suggested encouraging safe behaviour among
>> cyclists, for example by promoting the use of bicycle helmets across
>> Europe or by encouraging research on more ergonomic design of
>> helmets."

>
> Yay!
>
> If Brussels are promoting them, it shouldn't be too long before the
> UK press declare them an absolute evil imposition. Sometime after
> that, we might even get a journalist doing some research.



Can I take it that was sarcasm also? Methinks you misunderstand the
function of journalists: to invent stories.
 
R

Rob Morley

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Paul Luton
[email protected] says...

> and on the next line " Strict enforcement of traffic rules is also
> essential for all motorcyclists, scooter drivers and cyclists. " which
> looks like more of "blame the victims".
>

Why? Antisocial riding is a problem that needs attention.
 
T

The Luggage

Guest
On 8 Feb, 06:27, Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Paul Luton
> [email protected] says...
>
> > and on the next line " Strict enforcement of traffic rules is also
> > essential for all motorcyclists, scooter drivers and cyclists. " which
> > looks like more of "blame the victims".

>
> Why?  Antisocial riding is a problem that needs attention.


I think Puls' point was that the list didn't include the drivers of
cars, buses, lorries etc, who should also be subject to enforcement of
the ruls that is jut as strict as for everyone else.

TL
 
On Feb 8, 8:49 am, The Luggage <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 8 Feb, 06:27, Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, Paul Luton
> > [email protected] says...

>
> > > and on the next line " Strict enforcement of traffic rules is also
> > > essential for all motorcyclists, scooter drivers and cyclists. " which
> > > looks like more of "blame the victims".

>
> > Why? Antisocial riding is a problem that needs attention.

>
> I think Puls' point was that the list didn't include the drivers of
> cars, buses, lorries etc, who should also be subject to enforcement of
> the ruls that is jut as strict as for everyone else.
>

You can read the original comment two ways.

Strict enforcement of traffic laws is essential for cyclists - if we
stopped speeding, reckless overtaking, etc, etc cyclists would be far,
far safer.

Tim.
 
P

Paul Weaver

Guest
On Feb 8, 8:57 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> You can read the original comment two ways.
>
> Strict enforcement of traffic laws is essential for cyclists - if we
> stopped speeding


There are speed limits for cyclists (aside from a few royal parks)?
Are there limits for skateboards, horses, and people too?

>, reckless overtaking,


Buses are by far the worst offenders

> etc, etc cyclists would be far,
> far safer.
>
> Tim.
 
I

Ian Smith

Guest
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Paul Weaver <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 8:57 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > You can read the original comment two ways.
> >
> > Strict enforcement of traffic laws is essential for cyclists - if we
> > stopped speeding

>
> There are speed limits for cyclists (aside from a few royal parks)?
> Are there limits for skateboards, horses, and people too?


I think you're still missing the point: strict enforcement of ALL
traffic law ON ALL VEHICLES would greatly enhance the safety of
cyclists.

I'm not actually convinced that is the intended meaning of the
original text, but it is a possible reading of it.

Anyway, since the document is European-wide, it does not necessarily
follow that it should not be commenting on speed limits for cyclists -
while the UK has barely any, I wouldn't like to assert that nowhere in
Europe has cyclist speed limits. There may well be speed limits on
skateboards, horses etc. somewhere in Europe - do you _know_ that
there is not?

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
 
J

Jeremy Parker

Guest
<[email protected]> wrote

[snip]

> You can read the original comment two ways.


[snip]

That does sometimes happen with documents from the EU.

It can be a handy technique.

Jeremy Parker
 
J

JNugent

Guest
The Luggage wrote:

> Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Paul Luton [email protected] says...


>>> and on the next line " Strict enforcement of traffic rules is also
>>> essential for all motorcyclists, scooter drivers and cyclists. " which
>>> looks like more of "blame the victims".

>> Why? Antisocial riding is a problem that needs attention.


> I think Puls' point was that the list didn't include the drivers of
> cars, buses, lorries etc, who should also be subject to enforcement of
> the ruls that is jut as strict as for everyone else.


Absolutely.

It's about time it was an offence to drive a car, bus or lorry through a
red traffic light, along the footway, through a pedestrianised area,
across a pedestrian crossing without giving way to pedestrians, the
wrong way along a one-way street or without the lights required by law
(whether the vehicle is being used at night or not).
 
T

Tom Crispin

Guest
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:48:33 +0000, JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:

>The Luggage wrote:
>
>> Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Paul Luton [email protected] says...

>
>>>> and on the next line " Strict enforcement of traffic rules is also
>>>> essential for all motorcyclists, scooter drivers and cyclists. " which
>>>> looks like more of "blame the victims".
>>> Why? Antisocial riding is a problem that needs attention.

>
>> I think Puls' point was that the list didn't include the drivers of
>> cars, buses, lorries etc, who should also be subject to enforcement of
>> the ruls that is jut as strict as for everyone else.

>
>Absolutely.
>
>It's about time it was an offence to drive a car, bus or lorry through a
>red traffic light, along the footway, through a pedestrianised area,
>across a pedestrian crossing without giving way to pedestrians, the
>wrong way along a one-way street or without the lights required by law
>(whether the vehicle is being used at night or not).


What about partially obstructing footways by parking on them? Stopping
in an advance stop line cycle box? Exceeding the speed limit by less
than 10%? Obstructing pedestrian crossings? Failing to giv way to
pedestrians at road junctions?

These are all misdemeanours commonly committed by motorists, but to
which the police nearly always turn a blind eye.
 
S

Shane Badham

Guest
Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:

> In a "Green Paper" published by the European Commission entitled
> "Towards a new culture for urban mobility":
>
> <http://ec.europa.eu/transport/clean/green_paper_urban_transport
> /doc/2007_09_25_gp_urban_mobility_en.pdf>
>
> one can read on page 18:
>
> "Stakeholders have also suggested encouraging safe behaviour among
> cyclists, for example by promoting the use of bicycle helmets across
> Europe


> or by encouraging research on more ergonomic design of
> helmets."


Now that bit I like! I have thought for some time the design of cycle
helmets is flawed. They are designed specifically for going a over t
over the handle-bars, no thought for side swipes, or being dragged down
sideways by a vehicle passing too close to you!

> I'd have appreciated it were the Commission to have said exactly who
> these "Stakeholders" are, and what their evidence is - otherwise, the
> uncharitable interpretation might be that once again, the EC is being
> used by lobbyists to attain commercial goals.


--
Thanks and regards, Shane.
"A closed mouth gathers no feet!"
Email: Beware the invalid word! shane at wonk dot demon dot co dot uk
Website: http://www.wonk.demon.co.uk/
 
J

JNugent

Guest
Tom Crispin wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:48:33 +0000, JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The Luggage wrote:
>>
>>> Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Paul Luton [email protected] says...
>>>>> and on the next line " Strict enforcement of traffic rules is also
>>>>> essential for all motorcyclists, scooter drivers and cyclists. " which
>>>>> looks like more of "blame the victims".
>>>> Why? Antisocial riding is a problem that needs attention.
>>> I think Puls' point was that the list didn't include the drivers of
>>> cars, buses, lorries etc, who should also be subject to enforcement of
>>> the ruls that is jut as strict as for everyone else.


>> Absolutely.


>> It's about time it was an offence to drive a car, bus or lorry through a
>> red traffic light, along the footway, through a pedestrianised area,
>> across a pedestrian crossing without giving way to pedestrians, the
>> wrong way along a one-way street or without the lights required by law
>> (whether the vehicle is being used at night or not).


> What about partially obstructing footways by parking on them? Stopping
> in an advance stop line cycle box? Exceeding the speed limit by less
> than 10%? Obstructing pedestrian crossings? Failing to giv way to
> pedestrians at road junctions?


<steps back in amazement>

What? You'd rather drivers exceeded the speed limit by >10%?

But all of the above are offences, AFAIAA. Are you saying they're not?

> These are all misdemeanours commonly committed by motorists, but to
> which the police nearly always turn a blind eye.


They're not the only things to which the polce habitually turn a blind
eye though, hmm?
 
J

JNugent

Guest
Shane Badham wrote:

> Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:


>> In a "Green Paper" published by the European Commission entitled
>> "Towards a new culture for urban mobility":
>> <http://ec.europa.eu/transport/clean/green_paper_urban_transport
>> /doc/2007_09_25_gp_urban_mobility_en.pdf>
>> one can read on page 18:


>> "Stakeholders have also suggested encouraging safe behaviour among
>> cyclists, for example by promoting the use of bicycle helmets across
>> Europe


>> or by encouraging research on more ergonomic design of
>> helmets."


> Now that bit I like! I have thought for some time the design of cycle
> helmets is flawed. They are designed specifically for going a over t
> over the handle-bars, no thought for side swipes, or being dragged down
> sideways by a vehicle passing too close to you!


Would it be feasible to wear a motor-cycle helmet whilst cycling? I note
that some workers wear them (or something closely resembling them)
whilst carrying what I assume are relatively large amounts of cash.
Would such a proper crash helmet give the better protection you would
prefer?