Helmets, mothers and grandfathers



On Tue, 7 Sep, D.M. Procida wrote:

> Isn't it perfectly possible in this case at least that the foam was
> compressed, absorbing energy, before breaking apart?


Possibly, but it would have been a plastic deformation clearly visible
in teh pieces recovered after the event. The recounters of these
anecdotes never report observing such things - so it's reasonable to
assume it wasn't tehre to observe.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:07:10 GMT, The Oldfellow <[email protected]> wrote:

> I wear a helmet for two reasons:
>
> 1) As an example to the young. Since it's not proven either way on the
> helmet front, the reponsible thing for a parent is to insist that
> children (especially the very young with still-soft skulls) must wear
> them (just in case the evidence does come in one day...)


What? Just in case evidence comes in that it's definitely more
dangerous to wear a helmet, you should wear a helmet?

You've clearly already decided what the evidence that 'might come in'
is going to be, and are acting as if it already has arrived. I think
you need to examine your logic.

> 2) It's big, red, up in the air, and tells motorists that I'm (a) there,
> and (b) serious.


and c) that they can take risks with your life 'cos you've got a
helmet on to protect you, so they can take that bit less care around
you with their tonne or two of deadly steel.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
|/ \|
 
Ian Smith wrote:
> You are of course welcome to whatever incoherent, illogical and
> non-sensical opinions you like. Just don't expect anyone else
> to take
> your ill-informed preaching quietly.
>
> regards, Ian SMith


Ah Ian, always ready with the unnecessary personal attack to deflect from
the substantive points

pk
 
Ian Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Sep, D.M. Procida wrote:
>
>> Isn't it perfectly possible in this case at least that the
>> foam was compressed, absorbing energy, before breaking apart?

>
> Possibly, but it would have been a plastic deformation clearly
> visible in teh pieces recovered after the event. The
> recounters of these anecdotes never report observing such
> things - so it's reasonable to assume it wasn't tehre to
> observe.



you didn't bother to ask did you?

actually the polystyrene did show crushing/deformations well as a large
crack.

But don't let fact and reasoned discussion get in the way of the good old
**** you usually spout.

The helmet compulsion lobby spout emotional **** and statistical nonsense,
but some of you guys here are just as bad going through convoluted
intellectual gyrations to refute any instance where just possibly a helmet
might have been of use.


pk
 
David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:17:43 +0100 someone who may be
> [email protected] (D.M. Procida) wrote
> this:-
>
> >I don't really trust any of the information that has been put before me.

>
> Have you taken a look at http://www.cyclehelmets.org ?
>
> >I'm not even sure what I'd like the truth to be.

>
> It is better just to accept the truth, whether it is as one would
> like it to be or not.


Alright then, "I'm not sure what it would better for the truth to be."

Daniele
--
Apple Juice Ltd
Chapter Arts Centre
Market Road www.apple-juice.co.uk
Cardiff CF5 1QE 029 2019 0140
 
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>
> Are my children at significant risk of head injuriy when riding on the back
> of the triplet?
>


Only if Dad wears one and practices risk compensation behaviours at the
front ;-)

Tony
 
PK wrote:

> Ah Ian, always ready with the unnecessary personal attack to deflect from
> the substantive points


Which is, errrr, exactly what *you* are doing above. if it's so
terrible, why not just stick to the points yourself?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
PK wrote:

> you didn't bother to ask did you?


But you, the one presenting evidence, didn't bother volunteering it. If
you wish to present useful data for the argument then neglecting to post
potentially useful pieces of that data isn't doing yourself any favours.

> actually the polystyrene did show crushing/deformations well as a large
> crack.


I won't pretend I am a materials scientist who can look at the remains
of a helmet and decide exactly how it's failed. What's your backgorund
there, aside from the guy that picked up the pieces?

> The helmet compulsion lobby spout emotional **** and statistical nonsense,
> but some of you guys here are just as bad going through convoluted
> intellectual gyrations to refute any instance where just possibly a helmet
> might have been of use.


Maybe some people are, but that hardly invalidates /anyone/ pointing to
genuine flaws in the reasoning of "a helmet helped me a lot!" anecdotes.
I pointed a flaw in your reasoning for helmets being as effective as you
said appeared to be the case, but you immediately /assumed/ I was trying
to say they had no effect at all. By knee-jerk reactions like that
displaying a lack of care and consideration of the material you're not
really helping your own case.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Peter Clinch wrote:
> PK wrote:
>
>> Ah Ian, always ready with the unnecessary personal attack to
>> deflect from the substantive points

>
> Which is, errrr, exactly what *you* are doing above. if it's so
> terrible, why not just stick to the points yourself?
>



I beg to differ there is a little difference between the descriptio above
and the direct attack which i'll quote below;


<<You are of course welcome to whatever incoherent, illogical and
non-sensical opinions you like. Just don't expect anyone else to take
your ill-informed preaching quietly.>>


pk
 
in message <iLf%c.45$0%[email protected]>, The Oldfellow
('[email protected]') wrote:

> D.M. Procida wrote:
>> It wasn't until that I started reading this group that it even
>> occurred to me that wearing a helmet while cycling might not be
>> anything but a wholly sensible thing to do. Now I am just not sure
>> what to think, but at the moment I feel doubtful enough that I've
>> stopped bothering to wear mine.

> <snip>
>
> I wear a helmet for two reasons:
>
> 1) As an example to the young. Since it's not proven either way on
> the helmet front, the reponsible thing for a parent is to insist that
> children (especially the very young with still-soft skulls) must wear
> them (just in case the evidence does come in one day...)


OK, this is _very_ bad logic.

I am not advising you to tell your children not to wear helmets, but the
present state of knowledge is that there is absolutely no net safety
benefit in wearing a helmet and there does seem plausibly to be some
enhanced risk. It is equally likely that this evidence will be
confirmed (i.e. that helmets actively kill or injure more people than
they protect) as that it will be refuted. So there is no 'responsible'
thing to do with regard to helmets, except campaign for better research
and, in the mean time, to campaign for lower traffic speeds.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/


... a mild, inoffensive sadist...
 
PK wrote:

> I beg to differ there is a little difference between the descriptio above
> and the direct attack which i'll quote below;


The main similarity is lack of substantive points. Just like the above.
If you don't want people straying off the topic at hand, don't stray
off the topic at hand.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:23:37 +0000 (UTC), PK <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ian Smith wrote:
> > You are of course welcome to whatever incoherent, illogical and
> > non-sensical opinions you like. Just don't expect anyone else
> > to take
> > your ill-informed preaching quietly.
> >
> > regards, Ian SMith

>
> Ah Ian, always ready with the unnecessary personal attack to deflect from
> the substantive points


What substantive points?

What personal attack? I was upholding your right to hold your
opinions.

On the other hand, you _have_ failed to answer the points _I_ made,
and instead chosen only to accuse me of doing something I did not do.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
|/ \|
 
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, PK <[email protected]> wrote:
> Peter Clinch wrote:
> > PK wrote:
> >
> >> Ah Ian, always ready with the unnecessary personal attack to
> >> deflect from the substantive points

> >
> > Which is, errrr, exactly what *you* are doing above. if it's so
> > terrible, why not just stick to the points yourself?

>
> I beg to differ there is a little difference between the descriptio above
> and the direct attack which i'll quote below;
>
> <<You are of course welcome to whatever incoherent, illogical and
> non-sensical opinions you like. Just don't expect anyone else to take
> your ill-informed preaching quietly.>>


That's not a personal attack - you are holding incoherent illogical
and non-sensical opinions. The critical one in your posting was that
you reported a behaviour of your helmet which was clearly not thge
behaviour it ought to have been designed to exhibit, then you drew a
conclusion that depended on your asssertion of such equipment
bvehaving properly if properly designed. This is illogical. There is
no other way to describe it (well, possibly "you are stupid", but I
was avoiding personal attacks and limiting myself to crtticism of your
argument and your right to state it).

Specifically, you will note that I referred to "incoherent illogical
and non-sensical opinions". I did not make any comments about your
person, only your opinions / arguments.

I was then stating that while you are welcome to hold such a view
(that is, I was supporting your 'right' to post illogical and
incoherent views) it is not reasonable of you to assume that your
view will hold any weight amongst people that are more coherent in
their logic. Indeed, they are likely to criticise you for preaching
without a logical basis.

No attack. Facts, and a defense of your right to spout nonsense.

Still waiting for your refutation of the points I raised, and
explanation fo why your logic was not faulty...

regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
|/ \|
 
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:32:58 +0000 (UTC), PK <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ian Smith wrote:
> >
> > Possibly, but it would have been a plastic deformation clearly
> > visible in teh pieces recovered after the event. The
> > recounters of these anecdotes never report observing such
> > things - so it's reasonable to assume it wasn't tehre to
> > observe.

>
>
> you didn't bother to ask did you?


No, I admit I assumed you told the truth in your account of teh
incident. I tend to work on teh assumption that people are telling
the truth, and tend not to interrogate their every statement on teh
off-chance they might not be doing so. Sorry if this results in me
not appreciating the facts of teh matter.

> actually the polystyrene did show crushing/deformations well as a large
> crack.


Did it? Are you lying? (does that help the flow of conversation?)

Can you explain why in this account the helmet exhibits "a large
crack", but in your original account the impact "shattered the
helmet"?

Is one of these accounts innacurate?

> But don't let fact and reasoned discussion get in the way of the good old
> **** you usually spout.


It's evident that fact is difficult to determine. Was the helmet
shattered? Or did it only crack?

If I usually spout ****, can you cite a factual innaciuracy in
anything I've said?

> The helmet compulsion lobby spout emotional **** and statistical nonsense,
> but some of you guys here are just as bad going through convoluted
> intellectual gyrations to refute any instance where just possibly a helmet
> might have been of use.


"Convoluteed intellectual gyrations" would not be necesary if you
posted a coherent story.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
 
Ian Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:32:58 +0000 (UTC), PK
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ian Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> Possibly, but it would have been a plastic deformation clearly
>>> visible in teh pieces recovered after the event. The
>>> recounters of these anecdotes never report observing such
>>> things - so it's reasonable to assume it wasn't tehre to
>>> observe.

>>
>>
>> you didn't bother to ask did you?

>
> No, I admit I assumed you told the truth in your account of teh
> incident. I tend to work on teh assumption that people are
> telling
> the truth, and tend not to interrogate their every statement on
> teh
> off-chance they might not be doing so. Sorry if this results
> in me
> not appreciating the facts of teh matter.



Y'know Ian, I've come across you here a number of times here and have read
your contributions to other groups where you adopt a similarly
confrontational style to anyone whose views seem to counter yours. your
technique is always the same: to make disparaging or insulting comments
about the person or their arguments and then get high and mighty on your own
moral high ground when someone comes back at you.

I'm really glad I don't know you personally.

pk
 
PK wrote:

> technique is always the same: to make disparaging or insulting comments
> about the person or their arguments and then get high and mighty on your own
> moral high ground when someone comes back at you.


So where he's attacked your *arguments*, which is the root core of
/argument/, rather than complain about the style, counter the actual
*arguments*. That way people looking at the debate divorced from the
personalities can assess the data about the point at hand rather than
the slanging match. This is important. Lives may be at stake.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Interesting post.

It is perfectly possible for the best, most competent cyclist to fall off
from time to time, especially off road. Usually this involves (a) losing it
on a corner, either front of back wheel, generally resulting in sliding
quite a long way and losing a bit of skin. Helment probably not much help.
(b) the front wheel stopping, due to getting caught in a rut, pothole etc,
when you take the shortest route to ground, over the handlebars. You will
probably be stopped by your head.

Helmets are not perfect, but I know that in (b) I would much rather have a
good bit of expanded foam cushion between my skull and the ground

For many years I have cycled on various offroad expeditions with a group of
mates (we are now all in our 50s). We all wear helmets. We have all fallen
off many times, we have all hit our heads on rocks, roads, trees etc. We
have all broken helmets. None of us, so far, have suffered more than cuts,
bruises and the odd broken bone.

It is your choice if you wear a helmet for you, personally. Frankly, if you
don't, you are an idiot. But you really ought to persuade the kids to wear
theirs, especially if their mum wants them to. As for it putting them off,
all I can say is that my kids are now 16 to 21, all have cycled all their
lives, all are very enthusiastic and none would even think about going on a
bike without a helmet.

If you don't trust the information, try this.

Put on a bike helmet. Adjust it properly. Then put your head down and run,
slowly, into a wall. This will give you the idea of a low speed accident.
Then repeat without the helmet. This will give you information you can
trust.


"D.M. Procida" <[email protected]> wrote in
message
news:1gjppzu.jssbrn16x0vsxN%[email protected]...
> I have: one girlfriend, two children, two cycle helmets and one father.
>
> The father is old, the cycle helmets are new, and the children are seven
> years old. The girlfriend says she is too old to have any more children.
>
> It wasn't until that I started reading this group that it even occurred
> to me that wearing a helmet while cycling might not be anything but a
> wholly sensible thing to do. Now I am just not sure what to think, but
> at the moment I feel doubtful enough that I've stopped bothering to wear
> mine.
>
> I don't really trust any of the information that has been put before me.
> The arguments all seem to be invested with too much interest, and the
> statistics too partial, for me to feel entirely comfortable with hanging
> very much upon them.
>
> The girlfriend is very far from persuaded that not wearing a helmet is a
> good idea, particularly for children. Whenever I have shown her some
> graph or argument that someone here has pointed out, she starts asking
> difficult questions about demographics, and saying (quite rightly) that
> it's necessary to know more about how well children are represented in
> the statistics and analyses that are offered.
>
> She herself suffered a fractured skull about 13 years ago after a
> horrific bike accident while going too fast down a hill and losing
> concentration. She wasn't wearing a helmet, but who's to say what
> difference it would have made? Anyway, she is disposed to critical
> analysis and decent evidence would help her make up her mind, though I
> think she will always remain anxious anyway. But she has been pretty
> scornful of the evidence I've been able to offer so far, and she asks
> difficult questions for a living.
>
> The grandfather can be unfortunately somewhat less amenable to reason,
> and I suspect will simply fail to understand how not wearing a safety
> device could be less safe than wearing it. He's not going to be
> satisfied with "it looks as though there might be little or no advantage
> in wearing a cycle helmet", but if the children's mother seems confident
> that it's OK - or even good - not to wear one, his anxieties will be
> assuaged considerably.
>
> I'm not even sure what I'd like the truth to be. I'd be glad if cycling
> could be made even safer, but I'd also be glad for there to be no reason
> to have to wear a helmet. I don't know which is the better thing to hold
> out for...
>
> The best I've got so far is a growing but still fairly unclear sense
> that helmets are probably not a lot of use, but while I'm lazy enough to
> go by a vague sense when it comes to what I do, that's not going to do
> much to persuade anyone else, for whom I'm either going to have to
> marshall a convincing and carefully-presented argument (girlfriend), or
> exude more knowledgable confidence than a vague sense will get me
> (grandfather). It also doesn't seem an adequate basis for deciding how
> to keep my children safe.
>
> For the children's part they have decided that they prefer riding
> without helmets, which means that if there's no reason to do so it will
> be a relief not to have to argue with them about it, though slightly
> annoying to have spent unnecessary money on them.
>
> I don't really mind if the children suffer some minor injuries. Well, of
> course I do, but only in a sense that's faded by bedtime. They get minor
> injuries all the time anyway - doing anything - and it seems to be one
> of the best ways of learning how to avoid serious ones. Unlike my
> girlfriend I think it's good if they do reckless and dangerous things
> while riding in the park (standing on the crossbar is the latest thing,
> but we've also had trying to find out what happens if you deliberately
> rub your front tyre against the back tyre of the person riding in front
> of you). But the thought of having made a decision that incurs them
> serious harm fills me with horror.
>
> Daniele
> --
> Apple Juice Ltd
> Chapter Arts Centre
> Market Road www.apple-juice.co.uk
> Cardiff CF5 1QE 029 2019 0140
 
"Peter Taylor" <[email protected]> writes:

> Interesting post.
>
> It is perfectly possible for the best, most competent cyclist to fall off
> from time to time, especially off road. Usually this involves (a) losing it
> on a corner, either front of back wheel, generally resulting in sliding
> quite a long way and losing a bit of skin. Helment probably not much help.
> (b) the front wheel stopping, due to getting caught in a rut, pothole etc,
> when you take the shortest route to ground, over the handlebars. You will
> probably be stopped by your head.
>

Not true. All the times I've gone over the bars in my adult life, I've
tucked my head away and landed on my back (painless, except for
hurting my finger stopping the bike landing on top of me) or on my
shoulder (broke the collarbone. Quite painful. Went for an x-ray a
couple of days after), but the latter case was when the ground was
elevated above my landing position.

A
 
Peter Taylor wrote:

> It is your choice if you wear a helmet for you, personally. Frankly,
> if you don't, you are an idiot.


Oh dear, and you started so well. Have you not noticed that this ng
contains "idiots" with PhDs, MDs, and who are working as research
scientists?

It seems to me that you have fallen into the classic Liddite trap of
assuming that all cycling conforms to the narrow parameters you are
currently visualising. The danger of my hitting my head on either of the
two bikes I have been riding this week is negligible, and frankly the danger
of hitting one's head at all when riding on the roads is pretty low to start
with.

> Put on a bike helmet. Adjust it properly. Then put your head down
> and run, slowly, into a wall. This will give you the idea of a low
> speed accident. Then repeat without the helmet. This will give you
> information you can trust.


And for completeness try this: put on a helmet and run into a wall. Now
leave the helmet off and don't run into the wall. You have now simulated
the well-documented phenomenon of helmeted cyclists being more likely to hit
their heads; which do you prefer?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University
 
The Oldfellow wrote:
>
> 1) As an example to the young. Since it's not proven either way on the
> helmet front, the reponsible thing for a parent is to insist that
> children (especially the very young with still-soft skulls) must wear
> them (just in case the evidence does come in one day...)
>


Its an interesting perception but is wrong. As a pediatrician explained
to me many moons ago, children routinely fall over and hit their heads.
Nature has designed their skulls to protect better in falls. Softer
is not more vulnerable.

This is from the response of the Snell Foundation to the Canadian Child
Helmet standard

"1. Children's tissues are more resilient than those of adults. Their
veins are much less likely to rupture so that hematomas and gross tissue
damage frequently observed in adults are much less likely in children.

2. Children's heads are smaller. These smaller dimensions translate into
lower internal shear and tension stresses during impact acceleration.

3. Children's skulls are more flexible. Without a helmet, a child's head
could be expected to deform much more than an adult's in a comparable
impact. The child's skull might not fracture, but the greater
deformation might exceed the strain limits even of the child's more
resilient tissues.

4. Children, especially young children, fall much more often than
adults. When children fall, their falls are much, much more likely to
result in direct head impact. Adults virtually always manage to protect
their heads, frequently at the expense of other injuries. Young children
almost never do.

If children's lighter heads amplify the shock they receive in today's
helmets, points one and two seem to compensate. Point three goes beyond
compensation, if total skull deformation is an injury mechanism, then
stiffer helmets would limit this deformation. Point four is a
teleological observation. In childhood, we are subject to head impact
almost routinely. It has been reported that the majority of falls among
young children result in direct head impact but that falling adults
almost always manage to avoid head strikes. As children, we seem to have
been granted some additional measure of head impact tolerance at least
until we have had a chance to learn head protection."

I would add the caveat to 2 of "unless they are wearing a helmet which
makes their head much bigger and heavier" the effect of the helmet being
proportionately much greater in children than adults.

Tony