Help Circus Cyclists Jailed for Cycling w/o a License



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On Wed, 28 May 2003 04:51:02 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> from Road Runner High Speed Online --
Northeast Ohio wrote:

>But the government produces no money of its own to pay for these. It has to come from the populace
>in the form of taxes.

Here, I'd just like to point out that governments in fact do produce money -- they print it and back
it with "full faith and credit." People trade either wealth or labor for money, and take risks to
gain more. In a sense, the government is a middleman, since the people could trade that wealth or
labor directly with each other. However, government-produced money is much more convenient.

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace All right, you degenerates! I want this place
evacuated in 20 seconds!
12:46:51 PM 28 May 2003
 
On Wed, 28 May 2003 01:07:13 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]> from Balsa Pacific Aero Ltd.
Engineering & Bicycle Mongery wrote:

>Tue, 27 May 2003 19:41:13 GMT, <[email protected]>, Chuck Anderson
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>That's the most roundabout "love it or leave it" I've ever heard.
>
>Yeah, I've been told the same thing and I don't even live there.

Canada -- U.S. Lite.

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace I am a traffic light, and Alan Ginsberg
kidnapped my laundry in 1927!
12:59:51 PM 28 May 2003
 
<V>

I think you mean legal bike paths per capita. Not to mention inexpensive high end parts and
Racing/Training tires that don't blow out! :)

NS
 
"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]/\/\> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 28 May 2003 04:51:02 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> from Road Runner
High
> Speed Online -- Northeast Ohio wrote:
>
> >But the government produces no money of its own to pay for these. It has to come from the
> >populace in
the
> >form of taxes.
>
> Here, I'd just like to point out that governments in fact do produce
money --
> they print it and back it with "full faith and credit." People trade
either
> wealth or labor for money, and take risks to gain more. In a sense, the government is a middleman,
> since the people could trade that wealth or
labor
> directly with each other. However, government-produced money is much more convenient.
>

Produce, as in make goods and services. It neither builds and sells cars, delivers pizzas... you get
the drift.

As you say, they are a middleman. I guess I should have ben more specific, and said "the government
produces no 'wealth' ".

Pete
 
"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]/\/\> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 28 May 2003 04:51:02 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> from Road Runner
High
> Speed Online -- Northeast Ohio wrote:
>
> >If you toe the conformity line, you will get along. If not....well, you might not.
>
> That's true anywhere under any system of government. All governments draw
a line
> for acceptable behaviour somewhere.

Quite. But some places have a tighter line than others. Whether this is a good or bad thing is open
to discussion.

Pete
 
"Barry Gaudet" <[email protected]> wrote

> This will go round and round forever and ever unless I intervene.
>
> Someone please go dig up statistics. Whichever nation has the most bicycles per capita must
> obviously and self-evidently be the superior moral, social, economic, political, democratic,
> physical, and environmental society.

http://www.madygroup.com/news/MR000901.htm Bikes per person, Sept 2000 Holland 1/1 Japan 1/1.7 US
and Italy 1/2.2 England 1/2.5 China 1/2.6

According to this site, there are just under 1 billion bikes worldwide. Wonder how many are simply
rusting away in garages...:)

Pete
 
"Barry Gaudet" <[email protected]> wrote [...]
:> Someone please go dig up statistics. Whichever nation has the most bicycles per capita must
:> obviously and self-evidently be the superior moral, social, economic, political, democratic,
:> physical, and environmental society.

In rec.bicycles.misc Wainwright <[email protected]> wrote:

: Then Holland must have it by the proverbial mile

Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote:

: Netherlands is a constitutional monarchy and has more bicycles than people. It's also the highest
: per capita bicycle usage in Europe.

In rec.bicycles.misc Pete <[email protected]> wrote:

: http://www.madygroup.com/news/MR000901.htm Bikes per person, Sept 2000 Holland 1/1 Japan 1/1.7 US
: and Italy 1/2.2 England 1/2.5 China 1/2.6

Obviously der Nederlander is the consensus nirvana, utopia, heaven on earth. From my short visit in
the mid-90's I'd have to concur.

--
'They paved paradise And put up a parking lot' -Joni Mitchell
 
Dave Stocker wrote:

> Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > > Canada, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland,
> > > .....
>
> > Ahhh, right! Another of the "Europe does it best" crowd.
> >
> > Europe has a notorious "top down" leadership model. Europe has a functioning democracy
> > certainly, but to call it superior to the American form is bunk!
> >
> > It's simply a different model.
>
> In Swizerland, they do government by referendum. CH is the only place in the world with more
> referendums than California. IMHO- this is a good thing, but it can get a bit populistic. If an
> immigrant wants to take Swiss citizenship, it has to be approved by local referendum. How would
> you like total strangers to vote on something about you? Especially if the vote is not based on
> you, but steriotypes.

I have friends living and working in Switzerland. A German married to an American. Both come to the
US most summers for a few weeks to "get away" for a while.

The Swiss seem to be quite a group! Highly suspicious of "outsiders". This couple can not buy a
house because they aren't Swiss. They can only rent. Citizenship is not easy to come by, and
immigrants, especially of non-European decent have a tough time. No official work permits means
someone with a PhD mows lawns on the sly to make money.

If the sorts of events I hear of in Switzerland occurred in the US, there would be all sorts of
legal action from special interest groups, ACLU, and news reports of racism, bigotry and prejudice.

> Democracy in the EU is a joke. At election time, you get to vote for which party you want to
> rubber stamp European Commission directives.

I think the democracies of the individual countries are fairly above-board. However the EU is
nothing much more than a corporate structure superimposed over individual nations at the moment. It
is not a functioning democracy. It is merely a bureaucracy.

SMH
 
Chuck Anderson wrote:

> Kevan Smith wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 27 May 2003 20:07:06 GMT, "Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> from AT&T Broadband wrote:
> >
> > >> Canada, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand, Denmark,
> > >> Finland, .....
> > >>
> > >> I'm sure there are others I don't have knowledge of.
> > >
> > >Why are they better?
> >
> > More freedom. More democratic governments. More humane policies.
>
> Thank you. It gets tiring pointing out the obvious.

Oh yeah, that's obvious all right!

> America's government is bought and paid for.

Says you!

> This is barely a democracy.

Says you!

> And now the patriot act (and especially it's followup) is burying our basic "American" freedoms.

Then you're clearly a very brave person! I presume you have your bags already packed for your soon
to come trip to the Gulag for saying such things?

> You can not begin to say that America has the best system in the world.

Don't know that it's the "best" system of governance in the world, but it is certainly a capable
one, being the oldest democracy in the world IIRC.

It has quite a bit of inherent stability to it (a typical weakness of democratic government), is
extremely adaptable, largely transparent in its actions, and a lot more.

European style democracy is certainly quite functional as well. The parliamentary form can sometime
result in paralysis of action, at the very time one needs decisive action during times of crisis, or
give inordinately large amounts of decision-making power to narrow fringe groups with small amounts
of public backing because they are simply a critical part of a coalition government.

But all in all, European democracy seems to work pretty well too, but certainly not "superior" to
the American implementation.

SMH
 
ride your bike wrote:

> "Stephen Harding" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > Europe has a notorious "top down" leadership model. Europe has a functioning democracy
> > certainly, but to call it superior to the American form is bunk!
>
> U.S. "AUTHORITY" IN IRAQ CONTINUES TO UNRAVEL
>
> The U.S. conquest of Iraq is not going according to plan.
[...]
> The situation in Iraq today
[...]
> With the economy shut down, there are few jobs.
[...]
> Smashing the old state
[...]
> Depleted uranium coverup
[...]
> Free trade at gunpoint
[...]
> U.S. demands mandate for occupation
[...]
> Demand reparations and no occupation!
[...]

You, Mr. "ride your bike" need to get out and ride your bike!

The news from Iraq clearly has you frazzled!

SMH
 
On Thu, 29 May 2003 11:39:05 -0400, Stephen Harding <[email protected]> from Computer Science
Dept/UMass Amherst wrote:

>> This is barely a democracy.
>
>Says you!

If it were a democracy, Al Gore would be President. After all, he won the majority of votes.

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace Are we THERE yet?
12:22:04 PM 29 May 2003
 
Barry Gaudet wrote:

> : "Barry Gaudet" <[email protected]> wrote
> [...]
> :> Someone please go dig up statistics. Whichever nation has the most bicycles per capita must
> :> obviously and self-evidently be the superior moral, social, economic, political, democratic,
> :> physical, and environmental society.
>
> In rec.bicycles.misc Wainwright <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : Then Holland must have it by the proverbial mile
>
> Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : Netherlands is a constitutional monarchy and has more bicycles than people. It's also the
> : highest per capita bicycle usage in Europe.
>
> In rec.bicycles.misc Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : http://www.madygroup.com/news/MR000901.htm Bikes per person, Sept 2000 Holland 1/1 Japan 1/1.7
> : US and Italy 1/2.2 England 1/2.5 China 1/2.6
>
> Obviously der Nederlander is the consensus nirvana, utopia, heaven on earth. From my short visit
> in the mid-90's I'd have to concur.

Yes. ...... But our democracy is better than theirs.

[budda-boom "...... I'm jus' keeddeeeeng."]

I saw Rick Steves in Amsterdam on the TeeVee last night (reminding me of the 14 daylight hours I
once spent there while waiting for a train to Copenhagen). The racks and racks full of bicycles left
no doubt as to how many bikes there must be in Holland. (And their tolerance of victimless "crimes"
- which even Rick took the time to talk about - is another example of the "nirvana, utopia, heaven
on earth" you allude to).

I have a slide I shot near the main canal - not far from the Centraal Station. There was a large,
very professionally painted banner on a bridge (whitewashed rectangle with large red lettering)
declaring:

Abuse of Power Comes as No Surprise.

The American in me immediately understood it's significance.

--
**********************************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO http://www.CycleTourist.com Tolerance is recognizing that other people
have different ideals and needs than you. Compromise is acting on that knowledge.
***********************************************************
 
Stephen Harding wrote:

> Chuck Anderson wrote:
>
> > Kevan Smith wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 27 May 2003 20:07:06 GMT, "Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> from AT&T Broadband wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Canada, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand, Denmark,
> > > >> Finland, .....
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm sure there are others I don't have knowledge of.
> > > >
> > > >Why are they better?
> > >
> > > More freedom. More democratic governments. More humane policies.
> >
> > Thank you. It gets tiring pointing out the obvious.
>
> Oh yeah, that's obvious all right!
>
> > America's government is bought and paid for.
>
> Says you!
>
> > This is barely a democracy.
>
> Says you!
>
> > And now the patriot act (and especially it's followup) is burying our basic "American" freedoms.
>
> Then you're clearly a very brave person! I presume you have your bags already packed for your soon
> to come trip to the Gulag for saying such things?

What Gulag. Oh, you mean Gitmo?

I'm not muslim or Arabic.

But then, you know the old saying:

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out – because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out – Because I was not a communist. .......

Then they came for me – and there was no-one left To speak out for me.

> > You can not begin to say that America has the best system in the world.
>
> Don't know that it's the "best" system of governance in the world, but

But?!? ..... *That* was the argument. I was debunking the following statement:

>>> as Dashi Toshii wrote: Unfortunately there isn't a better political system in the world
>>> right now.

That's the thread.

> It is certainly a capable one, being the oldest democracy in the world IIRC.

Oldest in the world? Hmmmmmmm. Democracy started in Greece, .... IIRC.

A capable democracy? I suppose I could not completely disagree with that statement, although
"how capable" is very questionable when corporate money tells you who to vote for (limits you to
2 bad choices).

> It has quite a bit of inherent stability to it (a typical weakness of democratic government), is
> extremely adaptable, largely transparent in its actions, and a lot more.

Of the people? By the people?

> European style democracy is certainly quite functional as well. The parliamentary form can
> sometime result in paralysis of action, at the very time one needs decisive action during times of
> crisis, or give inordinately large amounts of decision-making power to narrow fringe groups with
> small amounts of public backing because they are simply a critical part of a coalition government.

Sounds like the US Senate and the Bush Administration to me.

> But all in all, European democracy seems to work pretty well too, but certainly not "superior" to
> the American implementation.

I disagree. How about the election fiasco in 2000? That was an example of a superior democracy? We
couldn't even get an honest tally of the actual votes. No one will ever know the truth of those
events. I'm sure there are democracies that are much more capable than that.

--
**********************************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO http://www.CycleTourist.com Tolerance is recognizing that other people
have different ideals and needs than you. Compromise is acting on that knowledge.
***********************************************************
 
"Stephen Harding" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Dave Stocker wrote:
>
> > Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> > > > Canada, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Germany, Ireland, New
Zealand,
> > > > Denmark, Finland, .....
> >
> > > Ahhh, right! Another of the "Europe does it best" crowd.
> > >
> > > Europe has a notorious "top down" leadership model. Europe has a
functioning
> > > democracy certainly, but to call it superior to the American form is
bunk!
> > >
> > > It's simply a different model.
> >
> > In Swizerland, they do government by referendum. CH is the only place in the world with more
> > referendums than California. IMHO- this is a good thing, but it can get a bit populistic. If an
> > immigrant wants to take Swiss citizenship, it has to be approved by local referendum. How would
> > you like total strangers to vote on something about you? Especially if the vote is not based on
> > you, but steriotypes.
>
> I have friends living and working in Switzerland. A German married to an American. Both come to
> the US most summers for a few weeks to "get away" for a while.
>
> The Swiss seem to be quite a group! Highly suspicious of "outsiders". This couple can not buy a
> house because they aren't Swiss. They can only rent. Citizenship is not easy to come by, and
> immigrants, especially of non-European decent have a tough time. No official work permits means
> someone with a PhD mows lawns on the sly to make money.

Well that's not too bad, it gives guy like Mikey something to do within his capabilities.

Dashii
 
Chuck Anderson wrote:

> Stephen Harding wrote:

> > Then you're clearly a very brave person! I presume you have your bags already packed for your
> > soon to come trip to the Gulag for saying such things?
>
> What Gulag. Oh, you mean Gitmo?

Pretty much a POW camp I'd say.

> I'm not muslim or Arabic.
>
> But then, you know the old saying:
>
> First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.

[...]

Yes I've heard it and don't believe it applies here.

> > > You can not begin to say that America has the best system in the world.
> >
> > Don't know that it's the "best" system of governance in the world, but
>
> But?!? ..... *That* was the argument. I was debunking the following statement:
>
> >>> as Dashi Toshii wrote: Unfortunately there isn't a better political system in the world right
> >>> now.
>
> That's the thread.

Well actually its "Help Circus Cyclists...".

> > It is certainly a capable one, being the oldest democracy in the world IIRC.
>
> Oldest in the world? Hmmmmmmm. Democracy started in Greece, .... IIRC.

Greece was a monarchy as recently as recently as 1973! It is not the oldest democracy in the world
by any stretch of the imagination.

> A capable democracy? I suppose I could not completely disagree with that statement, although "how
> capable" is very questionable when corporate money tells you who to vote for (limits you to 2 bad
> choices).

How does it tell you who to vote for? I never got the voting recommendation from... who would it
have come from?

Feel free to vote Green, Communist, Socialist, Libertarian, Independentand a few others. Just
because they don't convince a significant number of voter does not translate into suppression of
choices by some mystery group using mysterious means.

This is the argument of people without enough credibility of ideas to sell to the public. Instead of
admitting the ideas aren't convincing, they instead tack towards the concept that their ideas are
being suppressed by a corrupt system.

> > It has quite a bit of inherent stability to it (a typical weakness of democratic government), is
> > extremely adaptable, largely transparent in its actions, and a lot more.
>
> Of the people? By the people?

Of the people and by the people who care to get involved. I suppose the high number of voters who
choose not to partake of the system is evidence that things aren't so bad...although you'll no doubt
point to it as people disenfranchised by the system.

> > European style democracy is certainly quite functional as well. The parliamentary form can
> > sometime result in paralysis of action, at the very time one needs decisive action during times
> > of crisis, or give inordinately large amounts of decision-making power to narrow fringe groups
> > with small amounts of public backing because they are simply a critical part of a coalition
> > government.
>
> Sounds like the US Senate and the Bush Administration to me.

Well we have had "gridlock" in our own government. Republican and Dem; Prez and Congress at odds
resulting in little getting done. But at least we're not having elections every other month with no
movement, or allowing some right wing land grubbing, ultraorthodox religious group dictate future
peace policy...or else they'll leave the coalition and collapse the government.

The genius in American governance has been the ability to compromise. We're very good at it!

> > But all in all, European democracy seems to work pretty well too, but certainly not "superior"
> > to the American implementation.
>
> I disagree. How about the election fiasco in 2000? That was an example of a superior democracy? We
> couldn't even get an honest tally of the actual votes. No one will ever know the truth of those
> events. I'm sure there are democracies that are much more capable than that.

Voting "irregularities" have not been pioneered in the US. They happen all over the world and much
of the time. Such irregularities happened to both Dem and Republican in Florida, and likely in other
states as well in 2000. Probably every election. It's just the attention was on Florida because of
the dead heat tie result.

No troops came out of their barracks to support one candidate or the other. No one was imprisoned
by the winner. No blood was spilled. The utimate decision was made in accordance to law. The
system worked.

SMH
 
Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> The Swiss seem to be quite a group! Highly suspicious of "outsiders". This couple can not buy a
> house because they aren't Swiss. They can only rent. Citizenship is not easy to come by, and
> immigrants, especially of non-European decent have a tough time. No official work permits means
> someone with a PhD mows lawns on the sly to make money.
>

I have heard the same thing. It seems hard to reconcile this stereotype with the ones that I have
met or with hearing their dialect of German. They have all seemed to be very nice folks. As a
non-native (American) speaker of German, it is one of the few regional accents that I instantly
recognize, even when they are trying to speak High German.

Speaking of Switzerland, does anyone have experience with DT Swiss rims? I need a new rim for my mtb
and Mavic seems to have distro problems here (unbelievable - France is an hour away). They are a bit
heavier than the 517s, but are they 30g (and 15EUR) stronger?

-Dave
 
"Stephen Harding" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Chuck Anderson wrote:
>
> > Stephen Harding wrote:
> Well we have had "gridlock" in our own government. Republican and Dem;
Prez and
> Congress at odds resulting in little getting done. But at least we're not
having
> elections every other month with no movement, or allowing some right wing
land
> grubbing, ultraorthodox religious group dictate future peace policy...or
else
> they'll leave the coalition and collapse the government.

Give the Fundamentalist Christian movement an opportunity and we all will be living in a society as
closed as Iran is to new ideas.

Bush always calling upon a "God" and the religious right's radicalism worry
me.

If someone wishes to believe in fairy tales, fine, but don't try to convince the rest of us to
do the same.

Nonsense is nonsense, no matter how well meaning the bearer.

Dashii
 
I hope you don't take this is a cop out or a some weak strategy to try and "win," but I'm going to
bail out on this off topic thread that is just going too deeply into something totally unrelated
to cycling.

We disagree on some issues, obviously. So be it.

Stephen Harding wrote:

> Chuck Anderson wrote:
>
> > Stephen Harding wrote:
>

[I gotta remember to watch these cross-posts. Rec.bicycles.rides doesn't really see too much of this
kind of off-topic thread.]

--
**********************************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO http://www.CycleTourist.com Tolerance is recognizing that other people
have different ideals and needs than you. Compromise is acting on that knowledge.
***********************************************************
 
Pete wrote:

> As in the ongoing 'discussion' with my wife....health care for example in Europe (England,
> Germany, etc) is not 'free'. You just pay a different entity. And it is open for debate as to
> which is better at managing that money...government, or private companies.

The question is _who_ pays the money. In a European style health care system the healthy pay into an
insurance so that the sick can be treated adequately, no matter what their financial status is.
Whether the system always works efficiently is open to debate (and many countries are discussing
reform packages right now to lower costs), but at least nobody will be turned away from needed
medical care for financial reasons.

In the US, 2/3 of the population do not have adequate health insurance, and get into serious
problems when sick.
 
Dr Engelbert Buxbaum wrote:

> In the US, 2/3 of the population do not have adequate health >insurance, and get into serious
> problems when sick.

Please cite your source for this statement. If it is a source that bases its statements on an
accurate study backed up by statistics, all well and good. Otherwise your contention is nothing but
a gratuitous assertion, worthless as any sort of evidence.

Alexander Gilchrist
 
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