Help ID'ing Strange Vintage Frame

[mike schatzman]

Hi,
I picked up a frame at a thrift store today,
it's pretty nice, but has been painted.
There are engraved M's or like upside down W's (looks
almost like a royal crown?) on the
lugs on the tubes, and the bottom bracket is really weird,
it's got cut outs on the bottom of the BB, again two
large M's, so you can see right through it. Then
on the top of the seat stays near the binder bolt it
says PP and then a small M in a circle, or maybe PR,
I'm not sure, is it a Motobecane maybe? it's light
with nice dropouts (no name in the dropouts though,
and I though MBK's used Simplex dropouts) and the
tubes sound expensive when flicked. Only parts on
it are mystery headset and vintage ITM seatpost.
thanks for any input.

 

[RonSonic]

On 1 Sep 2004 17:09:38 -0700, [email protected] (mike schatzman) wrote:

>Hi,
>I picked up a frame at a thrift store today,
>it's pretty nice, but has been painted.
>There are engraved M's or like upside down W's (looks
>almost like a royal crown?) on the
>lugs on the tubes, and the bottom bracket is really weird,
>it's got cut outs on the bottom of the BB, again two
>large M's, so you can see right through it. Then
>on the top of the seat stays near the binder bolt it
>says PP and then a small M in a circle, or maybe PR,
>I'm not sure, is it a Motobecane maybe? it's light
>with nice dropouts (no name in the dropouts though,
>and I though MBK's used Simplex dropouts) and the
>tubes sound expensive when flicked. Only parts on
>it are mystery headset and vintage ITM seatpost.
>thanks for any input.


Let's hear it for cool old mystery bikes. Maybe looks like something here:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com./index.htm

How you gonna build it up?

Ron

 

[Stan Cox]

mike schatzman wrote:
> Hi,
> I picked up a frame at a thrift store today,
> it's pretty nice, but has been painted.
> There are engraved M's or like upside down W's (looks
> almost like a royal crown?) on the
> lugs on the tubes, and the bottom bracket is really weird,
> it's got cut outs on the bottom of the BB, again two
> large M's, so you can see right through it. Then
> on the top of the seat stays near the binder bolt it
> says PP and then a small M in a circle, or maybe PR,
> I'm not sure, is it a Motobecane maybe? it's light
> with nice dropouts (no name in the dropouts though,
> and I though MBK's used Simplex dropouts) and the
> tubes sound expensive when flicked. Only parts on
> it are mystery headset and vintage ITM seatpost.
> thanks for any input.

Photo's please. Why is it I never find anything like that ina charity
shop

Stan Cox

 

[mike schatzman]

Stan Cox <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> mike schatzman wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I picked up a frame at a thrift store today,
> > it's pretty nice, but has been painted.
> > There are engraved M's or like upside down W's (looks
> > almost like a royal crown?) on the
> > lugs on the tubes, and the bottom bracket is really weird,
> > it's got cut outs on the bottom of the BB, again two
> > large M's, so you can see right through it. Then
> > on the top of the seat stays near the binder bolt it
> > says PP and then a small M in a circle, or maybe PR,
> > I'm not sure, is it a Motobecane maybe? it's light
> > with nice dropouts (no name in the dropouts though,
> > and I though MBK's used Simplex dropouts) and the
> > tubes sound expensive when flicked. Only parts on
> > it are mystery headset and vintage ITM seatpost.
> > thanks for any input.
>
> Photo's please. Why is it I never find anything like that ina charity
> shop
>
> Stan Cox


I'll put some pics up tonight for easy viewing, so it has crown or m
(or w)
shaped windows cut into the lug tangs, and the undershell is pretty
much hollow with again two large M's on each side. never saw anything
like it, I have seem many french frames, and I'm pretty sure this is
Italian. It's not that old,
because it has downtube shifter braze-ons. so 80's maybe.
No price tag on it, the lady at the register said "wheres the rest of
it?"
I said I didn't know, she said $2. Paint job looks like a home spray
paint job but not too bad considering. The PP with the small M in a
circle is what got my interest, maybe a small framebuilder?

 

[Andrew Lee]

"mike schatzman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
> I picked up a frame at a thrift store today,
> it's pretty nice, but has been painted.
> There are engraved M's or like upside down W's (looks
> almost like a royal crown?) on the
> lugs

Well, the part about the crown looking M's in the lugs sounds like a Miyata
to me because I recall similar cutouts in the lugs in my early '80s model
912 (from my somewhat fuzzy memory... my 912 was stolen in '87). The other
details are different, but it could be a Miyata.

 

[Rick Warner]

[email protected] (mike schatzman) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Hi,
> I picked up a frame at a thrift store today,
> it's pretty nice, but has been painted.
> There are engraved M's or like upside down W's (looks
> almost like a royal crown?) on the
> lugs on the tubes, and the bottom bracket is really weird,
> it's got cut outs on the bottom of the BB, again two
> large M's, so you can see right through it. Then
> on the top of the seat stays near the binder bolt it
> says PP and then a small M in a circle, or maybe PR,
> I'm not sure, is it a Motobecane maybe? it's light
> with nice dropouts (no name in the dropouts though,
> and I though MBK's used Simplex dropouts) and the
> tubes sound expensive when flicked. Only parts on
> it are mystery headset and vintage ITM seatpost.
> thanks for any input.

Dollars to donuts says its a Mondonico. He stamps a pantograph onto
his lugs.
Probably Columbus SL tubing from the sound of it. Take out the BB and
feel up into the seat tube. Probably will find some steel pins, which
might still be sticking out or might be cut somewhat flush; he pins
his frames rather than tacking on the jig. The pantograph is
actually an A and M together, usually with a circle. If it is a
Mondonico, esp. with the SL tubing, then you have yourself one fine
Italian steel bike. The SL's are really light. I think he (2nd
generation, BTW) is around 70 or so, so probably not going to be
building a lot more.

- rick

 

[mike schatzman]

>
> Dollars to donuts says its a Mondonico. He stamps a pantograph onto
> his lugs.
> Probably Columbus SL tubing from the sound of it. Take out the BB and
> feel up into the seat tube. Probably will find some steel pins, which
> might still be sticking out or might be cut somewhat flush; he pins
> his frames rather than tacking on the jig. The pantograph is
> actually an A and M together, usually with a circle. If it is a
> Mondonico, esp. with the SL tubing, then you have yourself one fine
> Italian steel bike. The SL's are really light. I think he (2nd
> generation, BTW) is around 70 or so, so probably not going to be
> building a lot more.
>
> - rick

I've looked everywhere, it's not a Mondonico (I wish), I don't think
it's a Miyata (although I happily have it be a 912) , it strikes me as
a middle level frame, nothing super exotic, but the weird BB and
pantograph on the seat stays got me curious.
Here are 2 photos of the seat stay and weird cut out bottom bracket:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mschatzman/album?.dir=/1764
Let me know if anyone eles has an idea and thanks to everyone, I was
crossing my fingers when I researched the mondonicos, but they have a
different pantograph, an A with an M, this has more of a PPM right?
Anyway, thanks everyone.

 

[dianne_1234]

On 3 Sep 2004 17:45:53 -0700, [email protected] (mike schatzman)
wrote:

>Here are 2 photos of the seat stay and weird cut out bottom bracket:
>http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mschatzman/album?.dir=/1764

"Restricted Access"

"Sorry, mschatzman has not shared any albums with you. If you think
you reached this page in error, please contact mschatzman and ask them
to share an album with you."

 

[mike schatzman]

dianne_1234 <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 3 Sep 2004 17:45:53 -0700, [email protected] (mike schatzman)
> wrote:
>
> >Here are 2 photos of the seat stay and weird cut out bottom bracket:
> >http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mschatzman/album?.dir=/1764
>
> "Restricted Access"
>
> "Sorry, mschatzman has not shared any albums with you. If you think
> you reached this page in error, please contact mschatzman and ask them
> to share an album with you."

oops:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mschatzman/my_photos
if that doesn't work, I guess it's destined to remain a mystery frame forever.
thnaks.

 

[mike schatzman]

dianne_1234 <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 3 Sep 2004 17:45:53 -0700, [email protected] (mike schatzman)
> wrote:
>
> >Here are 2 photos of the seat stay and weird cut out bottom bracket:
> >http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mschatzman/album?.dir=/1764
>
> "Restricted Access"
>
> "Sorry, mschatzman has not shared any albums with you. If you think
> you reached this page in error, please contact mschatzman and ask them
> to share an album with you."

oops:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mschatzman/my_photos
if that doesn't work, I guess it's destined to remain a mystery frame forever.
thnaks.

 

[RonSonic]

On 4 Sep 2004 11:54:41 -0700, [email protected] (mike schatzman) wrote:

>dianne_1234 <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> On 3 Sep 2004 17:45:53 -0700, [email protected] (mike schatzman)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Here are 2 photos of the seat stay and weird cut out bottom bracket:
>> >http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mschatzman/album?.dir=/1764
>>
>> "Restricted Access"
>>
>> "Sorry, mschatzman has not shared any albums with you. If you think
>> you reached this page in error, please contact mschatzman and ask them
>> to share an album with you."
>
>oops:
>http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mschatzman/my_photos
>if that doesn't work, I guess it's destined to remain a mystery frame forever.
>thnaks.

It works for me. Sorry, I don't recognize it, but it looks so distinctive I'm
sure someone'll be able to make it.

Ron

 

[H. Guy]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (mike schatzman) wrote:

> I've looked everywhere, it's not a Mondonico (I wish), I don't think
> it's a Miyata (although I happily have it be a 912) , it strikes me as
> a middle level frame, nothing super exotic, but the weird BB and
> pantograph on the seat stays got me curious.
> Here are 2 photos of the seat stay and weird cut out bottom bracket:
> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mschatzman/album?.dir=/1764

just a SWAG (without so much "S"): makino? the long point lugs on the
seat tube cluster remind me of 3rensho, and i know that zunow was fond
of bizarre cutouts in the BB shell...dunno about makino-san, though.

hg

 

[Frank]

Looks like something M as the seatstays look like PRO with the M inside the
O. Have you measured bb shell and seattube to get an idea of maybe tubing or
if Italian BB?

Frank




"H. Guy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (mike schatzman) wrote:
>
> > I've looked everywhere, it's not a Mondonico (I wish), I don't think
> > it's a Miyata (although I happily have it be a 912) , it strikes me as
> > a middle level frame, nothing super exotic, but the weird BB and
> > pantograph on the seat stays got me curious.
> > Here are 2 photos of the seat stay and weird cut out bottom bracket:
> > http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mschatzman/album?.dir=/1764
>
> just a SWAG (without so much "S"): makino? the long point lugs on the
> seat tube cluster remind me of 3rensho, and i know that zunow was fond
> of bizarre cutouts in the BB shell...dunno about makino-san, though.
>
> hg

 

[mike schatzman]

>
> just a SWAG (without so much "S"): makino? the long point lugs on the
> seat tube cluster remind me of 3rensho, and i know that zunow was fond
> of bizarre cutouts in the BB shell...dunno about makino-san, though.
>
> hg

ah, thanks so much. wealth of knowledge on this list.
I checked out the makino website, and he makes some cool stuff,
touring bikes, fixed gears, retro rivendell type stuff and a really
weird folding bike too:
http://www.cc.rim.or.jp/~mackino/makino/catalog-model.htm
Some of the frames use a similar seat post binder style, sticking out
the back like that,
and I learned that Zunow usually used hummingbird cut-outs.
I was thinking Miele maybe, I guess we've narrowed it down a little, I
ride a 59cm, and this has a 62cm seat tube, 58cm top tube, so I might
make it into a second fixed gear (one fot riding and one for tooling
around to the coffee shop?)
Also, now I know that the seatstay pantograph is PRO with an m in the
O, cool.

 

[mike schatzman]

"Frank" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Looks like something M as the seatstays look like PRO with the M inside the
> O. Have you measured bb shell and seattube to get an idea of maybe tubing or
> if Italian BB?
>
> Frank
>
>

ah, PRO, I get it, duh.
english BB.
63DD on the BB and a long serial number, hard to read with the paint,
1680804 maybe.
chainstay 40cm

 

[mike schatzman]

"Frank" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Looks like something M as the seatstays look like PRO with the M inside the
> O. Have you measured bb shell and seattube to get an idea of maybe tubing or
> if Italian BB?
>
> Frank
>
>
oops, 126mm dropouts,

 

[Triodelover]

"Frank" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Looks like something M as the seatstays look like PRO with the M inside the
> O. Have you measured bb shell and seattube to get an idea of maybe tubing or
> if Italian BB?
>
> Frank
>
>
oops, 126mm dropouts,

Any chance it's an English Mercian? They don't do the BB cutouts in the current models, but they do something similar on the seat stays, engraving "Mercian" there. Maybe the Pro M refers to an earlier Mercian model. Looked all over their website , though, with no luck.

Just a thought.