Help Needed: Bottom Bracket & Cranks

[HP]

Hi, I'm a noob trying to service a BB on a Klein Quantum and I need some
help. First, here's a picture of the Klein:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein.jpg

Here's its BB on the non-drive side:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein_BB.jpg

The black ring is a thin rubber ring, with markings that read: 6003 RS
(and on opposite side) H.F.

The drive side looks the same as the non-drive side. The rubber ring reads
6003 RSR. On the BB's metal part (the "ring" that surrounds the rubber
ring, not the outermost "ring" which is the BB shell), it says

"PORTUGAL F(P?)AG 6003C3 HFS"

BB shell width is 75mm (measured with a ruler, so not exactly sure, but at
least within +/- .25mm).

My problems:

1) I need to remove the BB and don't know how. Can anyone id it and tell
me the tools I need?

2) I have a Campagnolo "Racing T" triple crankset (52/42/30) with square
tapers that I like to use. I looked on the net and found that it needs
111mm symmetric spindle length. Can anyone confirm this? Is it OK to use
a BB w/ 110mm spindle instead?

3) Can anyone point me to an online source for a replacement BB with that
width and that spindle length? The BB, aside from having too short a
spindle (I think it's for a double), feels tight and grindy and I have no
idea how or if it can be serviced.

4) Does anyone have the specs for the Klein, like what year it is and what
components it has?

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Lou Holtman]

HP wrote:
>
> Hi, I'm a noob trying to service a BB on a Klein Quantum and I need some
> help. First, here's a picture of the Klein:
>
> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein.jpg
>
> Here's its BB on the non-drive side:
>
> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein_BB.jpg
>
> The black ring is a thin rubber ring, with markings that read: 6003 RS
> (and on opposite side) H.F.
>
> The drive side looks the same as the non-drive side. The rubber ring reads
> 6003 RSR. On the BB's metal part (the "ring" that surrounds the rubber
> ring, not the outermost "ring" which is the BB shell), it says
>
> "PORTUGAL F(P?)AG 6003C3 HFS"


Weird. The bearing is pressed(?) directly in the bottombracket shell. I
would like to see a picture of the drive side. *** is a ball bearing
brand and the rubber ring is the seal of the bearing.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

 

[maxo]

That's a pressed bb like my daily ride. The bearings are standard stuff
at any good industrial supply shop. Problem is getting them out and in.
I got mine out with a mallet and a screwdriver, and reinstalled with a
mallet and a block of wood. Might want to hit the LBS for this one.

 

[Chalo]

HP wrote:
> Hi, I'm a noob trying to service a BB on a Klein Quantum and I need some
> help. First, here's a picture of the Klein:
>
> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein.jpg
>
> Here's its BB on the non-drive side:
>
> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein_BB.jpg
>
> The black ring is a thin rubber ring, with markings that read: 6003 RS
> (and on opposite side) H.F.

6003 is a standard ball bearing of 17mm bore, 35mm outside diameter,
and 10mm width. "RS" means rubber seal, as opposed to "Z" which
indicates a metal shield. Your bearings have two rubber seals apiece,
which would make them 6003-2RS bearings.

> My problems:
>
> 1) I need to remove the BB and don't know how. Can anyone id it and tell
> me the tools I need?

A hammer or a mallet. A brass drift. A section of tube about the same
diameter as the bearing's outer race. That's probably it.

> 2) I have a Campagnolo "Racing T" triple crankset (52/42/30) with square
> tapers that I like to use. I looked on the net and found that it needs
> 111mm symmetric spindle length. Can anyone confirm this? Is it OK to use
> a BB w/ 110mm spindle instead?

110, or 113, or even something else in the same range is probably fine.
Note that Campagnolo cranks have a subtly different taper than Shimano
and most other square taper cranks, which makes them
non-interchangeable.

> 3) Can anyone point me to an online source for a replacement BB with that
> width and that spindle length? The BB, aside from having too short a
> spindle (I think it's for a double), feels tight and grindy and I have no
> idea how or if it can be serviced.

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/17mm/kit712

Note the price. Compare to the price of 5 Shimano or Campagnolo bottom
brackets. I'm just sayin'.

For a different spindle length or taper, or for a replacement spindle,
you'll have to consult Klein directly. Likely you won't have much (or
any) variety to choose from. You should probably acquire a couple of
spare spindles regardless.

If you must use a Campagnolo crank (and if Klein's spindle isn't
available in a Campy taper), you can have the BB shell tapped for the
problematic but still marginally supported Italian 36mm x 24 tpi
threading. (If you do this, don't expect any future help from Klein,
though.)

You might be better off taking your bike to a highly qualified repair
shop than working on it yourself. However, you are probably better off
doing the work yourself than taking it to an unqualified repair shop.
If you can overhaul the other parts of your bike, than I say take a
crack at it. But if you usually take the bike in to have the chain
replaced, wheels trued, brakes adjusted, etc., then definitely hand it
over to the experts for a new BB.

Chalo Colina

 

[HP]

"Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein.jpg

>> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein_BB.jpg
>>
>> The black ring is a thin rubber ring, with markings that read: 6003 RS
>> (and on opposite side) H.F.
>
>6003 is a standard ball bearing of 17mm bore, 35mm outside diameter,
>and 10mm width. "RS" means rubber seal, as opposed to "Z" which
>indicates a metal shield. Your bearings have two rubber seals apiece,
>which would make them 6003-2RS bearings.

Hi, thanks for the detailed info. I've some follow-up questions:

.. I've never seen threadless/pressed BBs before. How much force is needed
to tap out the BB? Once it's out and serviced, can I tap it back in, or do
I need to rig up some sort of a press?

.. Is the above bearing race available at hardware stores like McLendon or
Lowe's, or is mail-order the only route?

.. I measured spindle length to be 113mm (so I guess it's long enough after
all). How can I tell if it's tapered for Campy or non-Campy? Since the
Klein BB is most likely original equipment, I'm thinking it probably caters
to Shimano cranks, but not sure. I've included some more shots of it here,

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein_driveside_spindle1.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein_driveside_spindle2.jpg

A more serious problem which I haven't mentioned is that a crank bolt
broke, and a piece of it is inside the hollow spindle on the non-drive side
(can be seen in one of the pics above). I opted for BB replacement as I
thought it would be a drop-in affair, but if I have to drag it into the LBS
to tap the shell, I might as well figure out how to tap & extract the
broken bolt. I've not done this before, so have to read up on it and see
what tools I need. If you or anyone have experience with pulling broken
bolts, I'd appreciate any advice.

>You might be better off taking your bike to a highly qualified repair
>shop than working on it yourself. However, you are probably better off
>doing the work yourself than taking it to an unqualified repair shop.
>If you can overhaul the other parts of your bike, than I say take a
>crack at it. But if you usually take the bike in to have the chain
>replaced, wheels trued, brakes adjusted, etc., then definitely hand it
>over to the experts for a new BB.

I can do most maintenance stuff. Haven't built wheels or pressed headsets
yet. I'd like to do this unless it requires specialized tools, first
because it's good experience, second because as a typical college student,
I'm usually somewhere between poor and broke, and time isn't as pressing a
consideration as money. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Lou Holtman]

HP wrote:

>
> Hi, thanks for the detailed info. I've some follow-up questions:
>
> . I've never seen threadless/pressed BBs before. How much force is needed
> to tap out the BB?

You just have to tab out the bearing at one side by tapping on the
spindle with a mallet on the other side (gently). Please don't damage
the spindle while doing it. Mayby screw in a bolt first. The bearing
will be shot I think. Just get a new one. The are cheap. How much force?
Well I don't know. It came in so it has to come out.

> Once it's out and serviced, can I tap it back in, or do
> I need to rig up some sort of a press?

Get new bearings (standard cheap stuff) and tap them in with a piece of
pipe with the same inner/outer diameter as the outer race of the bearing.

>
> . Is the above bearing race available at hardware stores like McLendon or
> Lowe's, or is mail-order the only route?

I don't know the situation in the States (?), but a good hardware store
should have them.

>
> . I measured spindle length to be 113mm (so I guess it's long enough after
> all). How can I tell if it's tapered for Campy or non-Campy?

Measure?

Since the
> Klein BB is most likely original equipment, I'm thinking it probably caters
> to Shimano cranks, but not sure. I've included some more shots of it here,
>
> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein_driveside_spindle1.jpg
> http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/emote623/Klein_driveside_spindle2.jpg
>
> A more serious problem which I haven't mentioned is that a crank bolt
> broke, and a piece of it is inside the hollow spindle on the non-drive side
> (can be seen in one of the pics above). I opted for BB replacement as I
> thought it would be a drop-in affair, but if I have to drag it into the LBS
> to tap the shell, I might as well figure out how to tap & extract the
> broken bolt.

Normally with a left thread tap if it is right thread or vice versa.
A lathe would be handy since you have to drill a straight hole in the
broken bolt. If this don't work drill out the whole bolt. Once again a
lathe comes in handy.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

 

[John Everett]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:40:16 -0700, HP <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>Hi, I'm a noob trying to service a BB on a Klein Quantum and I need some
>help.

Best advice, find an old Klein dealer that has the proper tools to
replace the proprietary press fit bottom bracket. Turns out the
bearings are pretty standard and available at most bearing speciality
shops. It's replacing them that's the problem.

BTW, Klein gave up on this design years ago. Unfortunately you can't
tap out the BB shell for more modern designs, it's too small in
diameter and too wide (like 77mm vs. 68mm ISO standard.).

A google groups search will turn up lots of info.


jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

 

[maxo]

I used the standard bearing supply shop 6003s on my BB, but the Phil
Wood specced ones are probably a bit nicer.

Scroll down this page to find them at Harris for six bucks, or have
your LBS order them:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/bottombrackets.html

 

[Chalo]

HP wrote:
>
> . I've never seen threadless/pressed BBs before. How much force is needed
> to tap out the BB?

It depends on factors outside your control. It might be loctited, in
which case some heat (like 250F) could be necessary. Since there's no
retaining clip I can see, I assume it's in there pretty darn tight.

> Once it's out and serviced, can I tap it back in, or do
> I need to rig up some sort of a press?

Probably you should drive it in. Since the bearings must be installed
with the spindle in place, it's not obvious how you'd go about pressing
them in with ordinary tools. Maybe with a big vise, a couple of short
sections of tube, and a helper.

> . Is the above bearing race available at hardware stores like McLendon or
> Lowe's, or is mail-order the only route?

Local bearing supplies or even bolt & fastener places will have them.
You are likely to pay a bundle for them that way, though.

> . I measured spindle length to be 113mm (so I guess it's long enough after
> all). How can I tell if it's tapered for Campy or non-Campy?

Campy spindles have a slightly smaller tip than Shimano and others. If
you have access to a dial caliper or micrometer, you could measure a
Brand C and a Brand S and see which one corresponds to what you've got.


> A more serious problem which I haven't mentioned is that a crank bolt
> broke, and a piece of it is inside the hollow spindle on the non-drive side

Usually, when a bolt head breaks off, the tension is released on the
fastener. That means you may be able to tease the thing out with a
sharp punch by striking off-center at such an angle as to unscrew it.
If that doesn't work, punch the broken screw's center as well as you
can, and drill into it (preferably with a left-hand drill bit). If the
LH bit doesn't grab it and back it out, use an easy-out (extractor) on
the hole you just drilled.

http://www.allprotools.com/store/page145.html

Stay aware of the possibility that it could be cheaper to get a new
spindle. To that end, it might be a good idea to find out first
whether you can buy a replacement spindle easily, and how much it will
cost you.

Good luck.

Chalo Colina

 

[Pete Biggs]

HP wrote:

> 2) I have a Campagnolo "Racing T" triple crankset (52/42/30) with
> square tapers that I like to use. I looked on the net and found that
> it needs 111mm symmetric spindle length. Can anyone confirm this?

Correct, unless seat tube is so large that the front derailleur needs
extra clearance, for which Campagnolo make a 115.5mm. Try a 111 first for
the best chainline and Q factor.

> Is it OK to use a BB w/ 110mm spindle instead?

Yes if the taper was suitable, but Campag don't make a 110. I would just
get a new Campag BB as they're cheap and good -- AC-S (Veloce) or AC-H
(Centaur).

~PB

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On 14 Sep 2005 14:50:12 -0700, "Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Stay aware of the possibility that it could be cheaper to get a new
>spindle. To that end, it might be a good idea to find out first
>whether you can buy a replacement spindle easily, and how much it will
>cost you.

http://www.reset-racing.de/reset/reset3.htm These guys make cartridge BBs
for klein/storck of that kind. From 99 euros apiece, available in various
Shimano lengths and octalink (as well as hollowtech-II non-spindle
thingy), but no campy. Klein spindles for shimano are available here and
there as closeout NOS deals. If this is as simple as it looks (a spindle
with flanges and industrial bearings pressed in so that the spindle is
caught between the two bearings), it may also be possible to modify other
spindles to fit. Of course, the words "machine a BB spindle" ought to
strike fear into the hearts of all, so may be a bad idea.

Bottom line: Find a different crankset.


Jasper

 

[maxo]

> Local bearing supplies or even bolt & fastener places will have them.
> You are likely to pay a bundle for them that way, though.

My local industrial bearing house had them for $5 (usd) per side, fwiw.
$4-6 seems to be the universal price on the internet as well.

 

[Chalo]

maxo wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Local bearing supplies or even bolt & fastener places will have them.
> > You are likely to pay a bundle for them that way, though.
>
> My local industrial bearing house had them for $5 (usd) per side, fwiw.
> $4-6 seems to be the universal price on the internet as well.

I posted a link upthread to a vendor who sells sets of ten 6003-2RS
bearings for $15.

I have had mixed results from my local bearing supply-- sometimes they
have a bearing I want for a reasonable price (usually $3 to $10
depending on the specific item) and sometimes they want 3 or 4 times
the price I can get from a bike shop.

When the bike shop's price is within range of the commodity price, I
buy bearings from the bike shop. The usual "Enduro" or "Enduro Max"
bearings (which are distributed by QBP) are specific to cycling
applications, with a larger than normal amount of grease. Some sizes
are available in full-complement versions, which have increased radial
load capacity, a little more bearing drag, and slightly higher cost.

Chalo Colina