Help understanding the power curve

[tx246]

Ok. Got a powermeter this fall and have a couple of months worth of rides. I have read Training with Power and understand the concepts presented. I understand the Powercurve, zones and which are aerobic and non aerobic in nature. Like everybody, I want to move my curve UP. Mine is relatively flat. Last year I rode more than I ever have. Im not a racer and I averaged 6 to 9 hours a week. For the year, 5300 miles with several one week breaks during the training season and reduced riding after Sept. I know its not "serious" by racing standards but I guess you would say serious by recreational cyclist standards. This was my third year of riding at this volume. This year was pretty similar to last as far as average speeds and efforts (using a HR).

My powercurve confirmed my suspicions about my ability or lack thereof. Low FTP but I can ride close to FTP forever. Not a climber at all. Confirmed by low FTP (most climb at FTP). I used that 34 rear because I have too. Curve in general is flat. My rides are seemingly high in Intensity when related as a percentage of FTP. Im pretty sure the FTP is accurate as anything above it quickly raises the HR and puts me anerobic.

Looking at a powercurve , logic tells me that your Vo2 max wattage has to be higher than your 20min. So in theory, if you have low Vo2 wattage, you are gonna have low 20min FTP. What I want to know is how are they dependent. Does training in the Vo2 zone specifically increase FTP? Or the other way around? Longer interval training at in and around FTP create increases in FTP and Vo2. Do you have to create the "headroom" with Vo2 specific training before optimizing training for the longer FTP effort?

Its our offseason here. Outdoor riding time is reduced. I have a trainer. Since I am on a reduced volume, Ive kicked up intensity. Going after Vo2 intervals and Tempo on rides of an hour. Longer rides outdoors at Tempo.

Thanks for the replies

 

[RapDaddyo]

Good questions. Reflects some serious thinking.

For starters, there is nothing inherently wrong with a relatively flat power/duration curve. By contrast, I have a relatively high anaerobic work capacity relative to my FTP, but that is neither good nor bad but simply a fact.

As to targeting your anaerobic work capacity (AWC), the answer is that yes, you can specifically target AWC with anaerobic efforts. The gold standard for targeting VO2MAX would be 5min efforts at ~90% of your maximum 5min power. But, you can target AWC with efforts at durations of anything from about 30secs to 8mins. To set your training target, I suggest finding your maximum power for a given duration and then use 90% of that number for training. So, let's say that your maximum 5min power is 200W. You could do 5min efforts at 180W. Note that I haven't used FTP at all in constructing the target power for your training efforts. It has nothing to do with FTP, but everything to do with your maximum sustainable power for the target duration.

As to why you need to target your AWC with anaerobic efforts, it's a bit complicated but let me try to draw an analogy. When you target a performance capacity, there is a ripple effect as in throwing a rock in a pond (the wave is highest at the point of impact and radiates out with progressively decreasing height). IOW, when you target your 5min power, you will also increase your 4min power and your 6min power. But, and this is where it gets a bit complicated, the ripple effect is not symmetrical. Rather, it is more effective to the right on the power/duration curve than to the left. So, coming back to the 5min efforts used as an example, they will benefit FTP substantially but NMP (neuromuscular power) almost not at all. This is why pounding out tons of FTP efforts does little for AWC, but pounding out tons of AWC efforts benefits FTP. Weird, huh?

 

[tx246]

Good questions. Reflects some serious thinking.

For starters, there is nothing inherently wrong with a relatively flat power/duration curve. By contrast, I have a relatively high anaerobic work capacity relative to my FTP, but that is neither good nor bad but simply a fact.

As to targeting your anaerobic work capacity (AWC), the answer is that yes, you can specifically target AWC with anaerobic efforts. The gold standard for targeting VO2MAX would be 5min efforts at ~90% of your maximum 5min power. But, you can target AWC with efforts at durations of anything from about 30secs to 8mins. To set your training target, I suggest finding your maximum power for a given duration and then use 90% of that number for training. So, let's say that your maximum 5min power is 200W. You could do 5min efforts at 180W. Note that I haven't used FTP at all in constructing the target power for your training efforts. It has nothing to do with FTP, but everything to do with your maximum sustainable power for the target duration.

As to why you need to target your AWC with anaerobic efforts, it's a bit complicated but let me try to draw an analogy. When you target a performance capacity, there is a ripple effect as in throwing a rock in a pond (the wave is highest at the point of impact and radiates out with progressively decreasing height). IOW, when you target your 5min power, you will also increase your 4min power and your 6min power. But, and this is where it gets a bit complicated, the ripple effect is not symmetrical. Rather, it is more effective to the right on the power/duration curve than to the left. So, coming back to the 5min efforts used as an example, they will benefit FTP substantially but NMP (neuromuscular power) almost not at all. This is why pounding out tons of FTP efforts does little for AWC, but pounding out tons of AWC efforts benefits FTP. Weird, huh?

I guess the concern about centering on AWC deals with HOW does taxing/improving the anaerobic system benefit a more aerobic effort such as FTP. What physilogical changes are happening? That was my plan for this winter since riding time was going to be reduced. Ride really intense intervals like you said based on my best 2 to 5 min wattage. Then I got to thinking what if March rolls around and Im improved tin 2 to 5min in power but lousy to the right of it.

Last year I did NO AWC work early and I think that was the downfall. Rode lots of pure aerobic. Got significantly faster at lower effort but as soon as the work load got above aerobic I failed miserably. Lots of rides the rest of the season were completed at an effort high relative to my FTP. I found I could go longer at that effort but my FTP didnt move much.

Sounds like my intuition of trying to maximize improvements in the Vo2 zone is a workable plan for improving FTP.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Well, attached are two documents that may shed some light on AWC and the aerobic benefits of anaerobic efforts.

The first document is a study done in Australia a few years back in which the athletes did nothing but high-intensity, short-duration intervals. The second document is a collection of relevant comments on AWC that I have clipped from time to time.

 

[tx246]

I saw an article on the Aussie study and the TMax interval. Ive done one set and failed on the 5th interval. They are no joke. Liked the second article wished the links worked. Looks like some good info. I do have interval questions but will make another post.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Sorry about the links. The forum has changed the url structure of their links since the document was created. I figured out how to get some of the links to work. Here is the new document with working links.

 

[tx246]

Ok. Im 2 months in and did what I feel is like a good FTP Test. I have a pretty defined MMC so I can get accurate bests for durations. I have been doing the AWC and VO2 based off bests for those durations. Ie 90% of my 5 min best for Vo2 ect. Now Im trying to incorporate Threshold into my workouts. Do I do the same thing? 90% of my best 12 min for a 12 min interval or do I switch over to percentage of my FTP? Seems the 90% of my best makes my interval power higher than using percentage of FTP.

 

[RapDaddyo]

FWIW, I use the 90% rule to define training targets at different durations across the full power-duration curve. When I am fit, I have a fairly high AWC compared with my FTP. So, my target power for a 12-min effort would actually be greater than my FTP. In fact, in my case I would typically do a 12-min effort at 100%FTP-105%FTP, which pushes the effort into the L5 level. But, you can absolutely target your aerobic capacity with any L4 effort. The major benefit of the 90% rule is that you don't have to have a good estimate of your FTP. All you need is a good estimate of your max power at a given duration, which you are more likely to know if you do training efforts at that duration regularly.

 

[nguyenthao]

good luck

 

[Jester]

Hey, good luck to you too! Hope you have a fantastic ride! Keep pushing those pedals

 

[BY03LSV]

I see you've got a power meter and some experience with power training. That's great! But let's focus on the topic at hand - helping a beginner cyclist.

As a software engineer, you might appreciate the precision of power training, but for a beginner like BY03LSV, I'd recommend starting with the basics. A good quality road bike that fits their inseam measurement is crucial.

Your training numbers are impressive, but let's not forget that everyone starts somewhere. Instead of focusing on moving the power curve up, let's encourage BY03LSV to develop a love for the sport first. After all, that's what keeps us all coming back for more.

 

[Jester]

As a fellow cyclist, I completely agree with your emphasis on starting with the basics for beginners like BY03LSV. It's easy to get caught up in the allure of power training and the numbers game, but let's not forget the joy and love for cycling that should be the foundation.

I remember when I first started cycling, it wasn't about hitting certain power numbers or chasing personal records. It was about the wind in my face, the freedom of the open road, and the simple pleasure of pedaling. Those are the experiences that hooked me and kept me coming back for more.

So, let's encourage BY03LSV to find that same love for the sport. Help them choose a road bike that fits their inseam measurement perfectly, because comfort and fit are essential for enjoying those long rides. And let's share our own stories and experiences, the moments that made us fall in love with cycling, to inspire and motivate them on their journey.

Sure, power training has its place and can be a valuable tool for improvement, but let's not overwhelm beginners with it. Instead, let's focus on creating a supportive and welcoming environment where they can discover the joy of cycling and build a strong foundation of skills and passion.

Remember, we were all beginners once, and it's our duty to pay it forward and guide them on this incredible journey. So, let's share our knowledge, offer advice, and most importantly, let's help BY03LSV develop that love for cycling that will keep them pedaling for years to come. ‍

 

[BY03LSV]

I completely agree with your emphasis on the importance of starting with the basics for beginners like BY03LSV. It's true that sometimes we can get caught up in the numbers game and forget about the simple joy and love for cycling.

When I first started cycling, it wasn't about power numbers or personal records. It was about the freedom and exhilaration of riding, feeling the wind in my face and the pure pleasure of pedaling. Those experiences are what made me fall in love with cycling and continue to fuel my passion for it.

So, instead of overwhelming beginners with power training, let's focus on helping BY03LSV find a road bike that fits them perfectly. Comfort and fit are crucial for enjoying those long rides. And let's not forget to share our own stories and experiences that made us fall in love with cycling. These stories can inspire and motivate BY03LSV on their journey.

While power training has its place, let's create a supportive and welcoming environment for beginners to discover the joy of cycling and develop their skills and passion. We all started as beginners once, and it's our responsibility to guide and support others on this incredible journey.

So, let's share our knowledge, offer advice, and most importantly, help BY03LSV develop that love for cycling that will keep them pedaling for years to come. Together, we can create a community that fosters growth and enjoyment in cycling. Keep pedaling! ‍

 

[chick on wheels]

Aiming for that power curve upswing, eh? Well, here's a tip: don't just ride more, ride smarter! Analyze your efforts, push your aerobic zones, and embrace the pain of those dreaded sweet spot intervals. Your flat curve will be jealous of your newfound power mountain! #cyclinggoals #powermoves

 

[EX2]

Consistency is key to shifting that power curve upwards! With your solid riding base, focus on increasing your weekly volume gradually, aiming for a 10% increase every two weeks. Don't forget to incorporate structured interval workouts to target specific zones and build power. And remember, a little friendly competition with yourself can be a powerful motivator. Keep it up, and soon you'll see those gains! #RideOn

 

[Jester]

While consistency is important, focusing solely on increasing weekly volume may not be the most effective approach to shifting that power curve upwards. Research has shown that incorporating high-intensity interval training (HIIT) workouts can significantly improve power output and overall cycling performance. HIIT workouts involve short bursts of intense effort followed by periods of recovery, and they have been shown to be more effective at improving fitness than steady-state cardio workouts.

Additionally, it's important to listen to your body and avoid pushing yourself too hard, too quickly. While a 10% increase every two weeks may be a good general guideline, it's not a one-size-fits-all approach. Some weeks you may be able to handle more, while other weeks you may need to take it easier.

Lastly, while friendly competition can be a great motivator, it's also important to remember that the most important competition is with yourself. Focusing too much on comparing yourself to others can lead to burnout and decreased motivation. Instead, focus on setting personal goals and working towards beating your own records. #KeepPedaling #HIITitHard #RideYourOwnRace