High Altitude Races and Prep

[DancenMacabre]

As the apparent queen of high altitude posts, I do have one more in mind but it is fairly specific.

First, what do I mean by high altitude races? I mean those that include riding up to 3000 meters and possibly higher. Many of you can guess the likely suspects (races): Everest Challenge, High Uintas Stage Race, Evans and Pikes Peak Climbs, Tour of the Gila. Got a few of these in mind as definite possibilities on my race calendar.

Now I already live/train at a decent altitude, 1500-1800m no flatlander/sealevel citizen here....

No doubt sustainable power does and will fall the further up I go. That is compounded by the fact that you usually have to ride for a while to get to the higher altitude, so you've already depleted some glycogen stores in addition to having less air pressure once you get there. As an example, I've ridden to 3500 meters and noticed a big drop in power. Apart from that, as a general rule I try to train low, in terms of altitude, as much as is practical. There is plenty of higher terrain that's accessible to me, up to 3300-3500m roughly, if I want a 'train high' option.

Question: Given the unquestionable decrease in absolute exercise intensity that can be sustained as altitude increases (especially given where I'm already at), is there any use in opting to train higher than usual (as in > 1800m), in preparation for these events? I question how much, if any, acclimatization benefit you get from spending a few hours riding up to 3500m. If mistaken, then please share your feedback and comments here. Now if I could sleep up there for a while sure, I could see adaptation, but just riding there?

A comment I feel obliged to include is that in Asker Jeukendrup's book, high performance cycling, he does include a small section on live low, train high. He mentions a study in which those living low, but training high did train at reduced intensity over a live low, train low group.....but the former had some increased mitochondrial density as compared to the latter. I don't have the exact citations for this sorry, nor do I have the specifics so I am unsure of how useful that study is. Now I don't exactly live low, but perhaps live high, train higher is a possible variant.

Additionally, if any of you have any specific experience with such events, and I bet some of you do, then please contribute any thoughts you have on preparing for them.

 

[swampy1970]

As the apparent queen of high altitude posts, I do have one more in mind but it is fairly specific.

First, what do I mean by high altitude races? I mean those that include riding up to 3000 meters and possibly higher. Many of you can guess the likely suspects (races): Everest Challenge, High Uintas Stage Race, Evans and Pikes Peak Climbs, Tour of the Gila. Got a few of these in mind as definite possibilities on my race calendar.

Now I already live/train at a decent altitude, 1500-1800m no flatlander/sealevel citizen here....

No doubt sustainable power does and will fall the further up I go. That is compounded by the fact that you usually have to ride for a while to get to the higher altitude, so you've already depleted some glycogen stores in addition to having less air pressure once you get there. As an example, I've ridden to 3500 meters and noticed a big drop in power. Apart from that, as a general rule I try to train low, in terms of altitude, as much as is practical. There is plenty of higher terrain that's accessible to me, up to 3300-3500m roughly, if I want a 'train high' option.

Question: Given the unquestionable decrease in absolute exercise intensity that can be sustained as altitude increases (especially given where I'm already at), is there any use in opting to train higher than usual (as in > 1800m), in preparation for these events? I question how much, if any, acclimatization benefit you get from spending a few hours riding up to 3500m. If mistaken, then please share your feedback and comments here. Now if I could sleep up there for a while sure, I could see adaptation, but just riding there?

A comment I feel obliged to include is that in Asker Jeukendrup's book, high performance cycling, he does include a small section on live low, train high. He mentions a study in which those living low, but training high did train at reduced intensity over a live low, train low group.....but the former had some increased mitochondrial density as compared to the latter. I don't have the exact citations for this sorry, nor do I have the specifics so I am unsure of how useful that study is. Now I don't exactly live low, but perhaps live high, train higher is a possible variant.

Additionally, if any of you have any specific experience with such events, and I bet some of you do, then please contribute any thoughts you have on preparing for them.

3500 meters is almost 11,500ft. There's no paved road in the Sierras that high! There Everest Challenge should therefore be easy...

 

[swampy1970]

As the apparent queen of high altitude posts, I do have one more in mind but it is fairly specific.

First, what do I mean by high altitude races? I mean those that include riding up to 3000 meters and possibly higher. Many of you can guess the likely suspects (races): Everest Challenge, High Uintas Stage Race, Evans and Pikes Peak Climbs, Tour of the Gila. Got a few of these in mind as definite possibilities on my race calendar.

Now I already live/train at a decent altitude, 1500-1800m no flatlander/sealevel citizen here....

No doubt sustainable power does and will fall the further up I go. That is compounded by the fact that you usually have to ride for a while to get to the higher altitude, so you've already depleted some glycogen stores in addition to having less air pressure once you get there. As an example, I've ridden to 3500 meters and noticed a big drop in power. Apart from that, as a general rule I try to train low, in terms of altitude, as much as is practical. There is plenty of higher terrain that's accessible to me, up to 3300-3500m roughly, if I want a 'train high' option.

Question: Given the unquestionable decrease in absolute exercise intensity that can be sustained as altitude increases (especially given where I'm already at), is there any use in opting to train higher than usual (as in > 1800m), in preparation for these events? I question how much, if any, acclimatization benefit you get from spending a few hours riding up to 3500m. If mistaken, then please share your feedback and comments here. Now if I could sleep up there for a while sure, I could see adaptation, but just riding there?

A comment I feel obliged to include is that in Asker Jeukendrup's book, high performance cycling, he does include a small section on live low, train high. He mentions a study in which those living low, but training high did train at reduced intensity over a live low, train low group.....but the former had some increased mitochondrial density as compared to the latter. I don't have the exact citations for this sorry, nor do I have the specifics so I am unsure of how useful that study is. Now I don't exactly live low, but perhaps live high, train higher is a possible variant.

Additionally, if any of you have any specific experience with such events, and I bet some of you do, then please contribute any thoughts you have on preparing for them.

3500 meters is almost 11,500ft. There's no paved road in the Sierras that high! There Everest Challenge should therefore be easy...

The highest peak typically encountered by the Tour de France around below 2600 meters. The Col du Bonnette (Restefond) is ~2800meters and the Galibier ~2650meters. The altitudes you're talking about are significantly higher. Very few of the Tour passes go over 8,000ft.

 

[lanierb]

I think that I've read that you are supposed to "sleep high, train low". Here are the reasons:

1) You want to sleep high because you want your body to get used to the altitude, and also you want your body to create more red blood cells that help your body absorb more oxygen in a slightly oxygen deprived environment.

2) However, if you also train high, then the lack of oxygen will limit your ability to work hard and essentially undertrain your muscles, so you'll get weaker basically. I.e. your L4 intervals will really be L3 intervals for your muscles.

So based on this the best approach would be to sleep in the mountains and do everything else the same.

 

[AshesGlory]

In preparation for high altitude events I used to spend quite a lot of time training at high altitude, meaning >12000'. But I found that recovery times from these workouts was so long that it did me little good. In recent years I have only done a single high altitude workout a couple of weeks before the particular event.

 

[Fightin Boba]

My experiences with training up in the Sierras:
1) the higher passes and higher elevations can be associated with weather /wind issues through about June - correct? That could preclude some training up there.
2) As much as you like the trainer, you'll still need to get out and do some climbs up to the passes as part of your prep for the events you are talking about. You don't and shouldn't train up there exclusively. Hit your trainer HIT stuff and mix in some climbs to the passes.
3) When I train / acclimate for the NCNCA District championship stuff, I train at 4500-7000ft. However, I typically drive up to Mt Rose summit (8900ft), sometimes hike up a bit more, but then just hang out near 9000ft for at least a couple of hours daily reading / doing nothing strenuous. I consider this a twist on train low / live high: train moderate, and spend sedentary time high....well, you know what I mean .

Of course, my events are typically at 5000ft, so take my comments in that context. On the other hand, your degree of acclimation already gives you an advantage over any flatlander that attempts the events that you are considering.

I know you are good about educating yourself. Here is some good reading that you may or may not have heard about:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Altitude-Training-Athletic-Performance-Randall/dp/0736001573/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270346281&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: Altitude Training and Athletic Performance (9780736001571): Randall Wilber: Books[/ame]

 

[DancenMacabre]

Swampy: yes, lower than many tour passes. not that such a thought will bring me much comfort as I grind my way up said roads

Lanierb: No question sleeping on the mountain and training in the valley would be ideal. Not sure that would go over well at home or for that matter, with me. So I'll have to skip on the sleep high (higher) part unfortunately.

Steve: Thanks for sharing your personal experiences with high-altitude races as well as some insight into your preparation. Yes, undoubtedly weather can preclude training in the high mountains until summer or later summer. Although further south that's less of a problem obviously. Ha ha, yes I know what you mean about spending some time "up there". It strikes me as quite a novel approach too, of spending a few hours higher, doing low stress activity, than your normal training ground. I've always read that the benefits of sleep high require a minimum number of hours but I wonder if there's still some benefit to spending a bit fewer hours.

Whichever of those events I opt for, I think I'll chose to ride to ~3000m or so, once per week (seem reasonable?) in the leadup to the races. One thing I might do though is override the TSS values (override & set them a bit higher that is, maybe 10%) for those rides given the obvious reduction in power but not effort. A slight adaptation 'on alls you can do is alls you can do'. Unlike the trainer where I know I can make the same power outdoors, I know nobody can make as much power at 3000m as they can at 1000 or 1500.

The altitude performance book is on order and I'm anxious to receive it and begin my reading. Thank you for the suggestion

If any others have done high-altitude races and would like to comment on their experiences, approach, or preparation, then please do so as it would be appreciated.

 

[Fightin Boba]

Whichever of those events I opt for, I think I'll chose to ride to ~3000m or so, once per week (seem reasonable?) in the leadup to the races.

Bingo! Remember to also work on your descending skills - the training opportunity is not just in going up. And, do continue to do your trainer HIT sessions as appropriate on the the other days.

One thing I might do though is override the TSS values (override & set them a bit higher that is, maybe 10%) for those rides given the obvious reduction in power but not effort.

Sounds reasonable. Of course, you can also estimate an alternative FTP for those rides and use it in calculating the alternate TSS that you will be using in the override. However, I'm not certain of the degree to which PMC will be different, given the only once per weeks forrays.

 

[swampy1970]

My experiences with training up in the Sierras:
1) the higher passes and higher elevations can be associated with weather /wind issues through about June - correct? That could preclude some training up there.

Last year they had some heavy snow during the first weekend in June up on the passes around Tahoe. I was snowed on, pelted with freezing rain and generally frozen all day during the Alta Alpina event mid-June...

... riding past my car at the half way point (100miles) I'm surprised the temptation to jump in and turn on the heater for a bit wasn't stronger than it was.

Typically, most northern sierra passes are open late April to mid May. Some passes, such as Ebbetts have a single lane ploughed through them with passing points every so often.

 

[swampy1970]

If any others have done high-altitude races and would like to comment on their experiences, approach, or preparation, then please do so as it would be appreciated.

Andy Coggan posted a very useful link, in a post I made about riding at altitude last year, regarding how altitude effects power output. It worked remarkably well as my pacing over the 198mile Alta Alpina event was with 15 minutes of what I had planned. That event had over 100 miles above 7,000ft. I'll try and dig it out for you tommorrow.

 

[swampy1970]

I wonder if anyone has ever loaded their bike and a small foldable trainer into their truck and driven up to some insane elevation for a couple of hours training? Find someone who's renting out a shack for a week at 12,000ft and go ride on the patio for a few hours

sorry dancen, couldn't find that link that Andy posted.

 

[AshesGlory]

I wonder if anyone has ever loaded their bike and a small foldable trainer into their truck and driven up to some insane elevation for a couple of hours training? Find someone who's renting out a shack for a week at 12,000ft and go ride on the patio for a few hours .

I did this a couple of years ago - it was my turn to pick up my buddies after a training run up Pikes Peak so I drove to the top with my bike and bike trainer. The power data was quite revealing. From this workout and others at altitude I estimated my FTP@14k to be 75% of my normal FTP.

 

[DancenMacabre]

Swampy - ha ha, yeah I figured you'd not turned up that post. Fairly difficult thing to ascertain though if you think about it. I mean saying your FTP is X at some altitude Y, isn't hard assuming you are fresh. But in the context of a race, carrying fatigue, and with substrate use well under way? Not so simple. Would be great as you say though to stay up at 12k for a few weeks and train at maybe 1/2 that altitude. Ah, all comes back to time & money!

Ashes: Pretty humbling isn't it? 75% @ 14k. Now I am thinking if you had started from town and climbed all the way up Pikes Peak, that your power near the top would be even less than 75% given that you'd have been working very hard for a while already...

 

[AshesGlory]

Ashes: Pretty humbling isn't it? 75% @ 14k. Now I am thinking if you had started from town and climbed all the way up Pikes Peak, that your power near the top would be even less than 75% given that you'd have been working very hard for a while already...

Hey Dancen, agreed, and I have 4 years worth of race power data for the Mt Evans Hill Climb plus training rides to illustrate your point. It almost a triple-wammy - increasing altitude, increasing fatigue and deteriorating weather conditions above treeline. Although I'm not exactly suited to that race I do love it.

 

[swampy1970]

Swampy - ha ha, yeah I figured you'd not turned up that post. Fairly difficult thing to ascertain though if you think about it. I mean saying your FTP is X at some altitude Y, isn't hard assuming you are fresh. But in the context of a race, carrying fatigue, and with substrate use well under way? Not so simple. Would be great as you say though to stay up at 12k for a few weeks and train at maybe 1/2 that altitude. Ah, all comes back to time & money!

The Alpina ride last year was weird in a few ways. I wasn't sure how I was gonna deal with (a) the mileage, 198 miles (b) the time at altitude, upto 8,800ft in places and over 100miles above 7,000ft(c) and the combination of both just meaning a hell of alot more time on the bike that I was used too.

The wonderful 'summer' weather, snow, freezing rain and hail in places, didn't help either. Just what the doctor ordered for breathing woes.

Given that I live about 110ft above sea level I guess I'm a bit of a fish out of water up there but even on the steep inclines going up Ebbetts after 130 miles I had to watch the power meter to keep the power down, which really wasn't what I expected. What should be interesting this year, is getting some idea how much harder can I push myself over that distance. This year the Alpina Challenge isn't the main goal, the Everest Challenge is. Sure I still want to finish BUT this is the only opportunity I'll have to ride 100+ miles in the big hills before Sept and go reasonably hard.

Funnily enough, the biggest hurdle, apart from back issues, seemed to be the lack of sleep. That's the last time I try to sleep in a Jeep the night before an event. Go figure. Maybe exercise at altitude promotes extra sleepiness. I just wanted to rest my eyes on the straighter sections coming down Ebbetts back towards Markleeville. First time I've had to take the Oakleys off in order to get some more breeze on the face to stay alert. Not something you should really want to do in 53x11 but hey...

... maybe I could have done with a couple of cups of 53x11 extra strong espresso.

 

[DancenMacabre]

Hey Dancen, agreed, and I have 4 years worth of race power data for the Mt Evans Hill Climb plus training rides to illustrate your point. It almost a triple-wammy - increasing altitude, increasing fatigue and deteriorating weather conditions above treeline. Although I'm not exactly suited to that race I do love it.

Ashes: Done the races 4x? Nice! It is a race I'm strongly considering so it would be great to learn more about your overall IF/NP/AP for the event, etc. Plus hearing about what the race is like, etc. Any-hoo, don't mean to put you on the spot & ask you to share data publicly if you aren't comfortable, PM is ok too.

Swampy: You doing that Everest challenge this month? I see it listed twice I think in the USA cycling calendar. I gave it some thought too but it is a bit of a haul for me to get there and I also know at least stage 1 is point to point & leaves you 80+ miles from the start.

 

[swampy1970]

Ashes: Done the races 4x? Nice! It is a race I'm strongly considering so it would be great to learn more about your overall IF/NP/AP for the event, etc. Plus hearing about what the race is like, etc. Any-hoo, don't mean to put you on the spot & ask you to share data publicly if you aren't comfortable, PM is ok too.

Swampy: You doing that Everest challenge this month? I see it listed twice I think in the USA cycling calendar. I gave it some thought too but it is a bit of a haul for me to get there and I also know at least stage 1 is point to point & leaves you 80+ miles from the start.

Everest Challenge is in Sept. Alta Alpina - June, Drunk Ride - July A guy has to help the firemen, selling tasty brews as a fund raiser, out doesn't he?

The unofficial finishes for the Everest (ie the road race finish) are ontop of the last climbs - the "official" finish is down at the bottom of the 20 or so mile descent each day. If you're doing the race and not the ride then the official finish is just a formality but apparently you still need to check in. The bottom of each final descent is just a mile or two away from the parking lot where the start was, so logistically it's not too bad. The start of Day 2 isn't too far from the start/finish of Day 1.

Course map:
http://www.everestchallenge.com/images/ECMap2009.png

The map is way to big to post.

I don't know why, but I'm still not yet at that point where I'm questioning why I'm using this as my first race in ~14 years. I'm sure I would have asked myself that question by the end of August. I just kinda figure that some local crit aint gonna pretty much force me to make a massive effort to lose weight and increase fitness to where I can "comfortably" ride hard for 7+ hours. 3.5 to 3.7w/kg on the last climb is the goal. My training schedule for the 8 week block from end of July to mid Sept looks a bit "grim", OK, it looks like a semi-disaster waiting to happen but I'm not quite dumb enough to force myself through it if I see things heading south. To follow Colin Chapman's ethos, adding lightness has been more of a goal than adding power so far. My bike has lost ~30% of it's weight and I'm a little over half way in achieving the same percentage of weight loss this year.

... and it's almost a crime that the Tour of California didn't go over some of those monsters.

 

[AshesGlory]

Ashes: Done the races 4x? Nice! It is a race I'm strongly considering so it would be great to learn more about your overall IF/NP/AP for the event, etc. Plus hearing about what the race is like, etc. Any-hoo, don't mean to put you on the spot & ask you to share data publicly if you aren't comfortable, PM is ok too.

I have actually raced it more than 4x but I got my first powermeter in the fall of 2005 so I only have power data for the 4 races from 2006-2009. Feel free to send me a PM.

 

[DancenMacabre]

Swampy: My mistake! I was thinking the Mt. Whitney stage race this month. In the race flyer it says "afternoon for checkin and packet pickup from 4:00pm – 8:00pm. If you intend to stay at the Inn Friday night, make reservations NOW! This is a point-to-point race, and the Finish is nearly 80 miles from the Start! You will need to carpool or make arrangements to get you and your gear in the right places at the right times."

That was the nature of my comment on the whole point-2-point angle.

You want to do the last climb at 3.4 w/kg or more? Then I assume you are good for > 4 w/kg when fresh at sea level right? What you are aiming for on a stage like that is ambitious!

Ashes: Done

 

[swampy1970]

You want to do the last climb at 3.4 w/kg or more? Then I assume you are good for > 4 w/kg when fresh at sea level right? What you are aiming for on a stage like that is ambitious!

I've been slacking abit so far this year. Partly due to work, long vacations, illness and more work.

I haven't done any serious testing so far - my last test was last May! Back then FTP was ~4.3w/kg (345watts/174lbs) and I know I was good for 2 hour training rides at sea level at ~4 w/kg (320watts/174lbs).

I'm about 30 watts down on that and I'm at 176lbs and losing weight ~2lb per week. For two hours I'm riding at less intensity as last years two hour sessions at 240 to 260watts. There's more go in the engine but doing that AND eating less would probably not end well.

Given that my race weight used to be ~145lbs and I'm still packing a fair ol' gut I know there's a bunch left to lose. The power will come up very quickly once I start hitting the 20 minute intervals on the trainer very hard but that isn't going to happen until I'm closer to my target weight.

Ambitious? Maybe... but it's partly based upon past long rides and expected weight. I need something to drive me and I can't think of a better event to do it than this. The only problem is, after this, what next? Do it again next year and knock an hour or so off?