High protein diet.

Discussion in 'Health Nutrition and Supplements' started by Vo2, Feb 14, 2003.

  1. chisa1234

    chisa1234 New Member

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    "You're suggesting that you're the singular proponent of low-carb diets? I think the diet sections of most book stores will correct that misconception."

    what i actually meant was that if you are in group of friends all arguing against you it's difficult to stand up against the torrent. i wasn't talking about me specifically.

    don't read things so literally.

    anyhow, i didn't want to get into a slagging match about low carbing in the first place as i said before. i don't do it, i just feel that it isn't the horned beast which some seek to portray it as and from an evloutionary point of view i find it interesting as i have done a lot of research into early human farming in the fertile crescent and the crop mutations from which we get our modern grains.
     


  2. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

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    yes but! in reality. hold on high carb foods are the sugary foods containing large amounts of refined or simple sugars which contain little in the way of vitamins. minerals trace elements and fibre; but often alot of fat, so they are considered less nutrisious than starchy foods rich in fibre.

    the stages by which energy from fats stored within the adipose tissue of the body or the muscle cells are converted into energy within the muscle cells.

    the first step being to mobilize the fat stores within the adipose tissue and bring about the release of free fatty acids into the circulation. this process is under control of several hormones adrenaline and noradrenaline, these hormone are released when energy is required, these hormones prepare the ody for exercise.

    once these free fatty acids are released they are released into the circulatory system and transported, in association with a carrier protein called albumin, to the working muscle. the glycerol that is also released is taken up by the liver to produce glucose, this process is known as glycogenesis.

    the release of fatty acids from the adipose tissue and the increase in blood flow results in fatty acids entering the muscle (the uptake of fatty acids by the muscle is directly related to the concentration of free fatty acids in the blood flowing through the capillaries of the muscle.) these fatty acids may either join the fatty acids released from the intra musclular stores of triglycerides, or be oxidized immediately or stored within the muscle the first step of utilizing fatty acids requires both energy and the activation of fatty acids, so this step uses ATP.

    these fatty acids are then transported into the mitochondria via a special carrier mechanism, along with the delivery of fatty acidsinto the muscle this is believed to be one of the most crucial stage in which fatty acids may be used as energy source. clearly, the greater the numer of mitichondria present within the cell, the greater the capability to take up fatty acids and oxidize them to produce energy.

    once in the mitochondria, the activated fatty acids are then broken down further so that they can then enter the mitochondria and are oxidized in the same way as carbohydrates the number of ATP units that are generated by this process depends upon the numer of carbon atoms present within the fatty acid chain, the longer the fatty acid chain the larger the number of carbon atoms, as the carbon atoms range from 10 \24 carbon atoms, the energy yield per unit of fatty acid is considerable (aout 80\200 ATP units)

    so whereas only 36\38 atp units are generated from glucose oxidization, the potential energy yield by fatty acid oxidization is much greater. consequently any factor that increases the rate of fatty acid oxidization would have a considerable impact on the total energy generated. however, the primary limitation to the rate of energy resysnthesis from fat is that it is dependant upon oxidization within the mitochondria; while the yield is great in absolute amounts the rate at which ATP is resynthesized is comparatably low.

    some tissues such as tyhe heart and liver are well suited to energy resynthesis from fat oxidization, where as others such as the brain and red blood cells are dependant upon glycolysis to to provide energy and totally dependant upon the supply and utilization of glucose. skelatal muscle on the other hand is ideally equiped to handle a wide variety of different fuels. although the capacity to oxidize fatty acids does vary conmsiderably between the different types of muscle fibre. those fibres with an high oxidative capacity (large number of mitiochondria) and a good supply that type slow oxidative fibres are better able to oxidize fatty acids than the type IIb or fast glycolgenic fibres which are better suited to generating energy from carb metab.

    as for ketones, under extreme conditions the excess free fatty acids are released into the circulatory system converted by the liver as ketones. apart from bbe a suitable fuel for energy metobolism within the muscle, ketones are equally important as they are the only other source apart from glucose that can be used by the brain and nervous tissue. ketones are taken upto the brain and skeletal muscle and enter the krebs cycle to be oxidised to produce ATP.

    fat is equally as important: protein; carbs, as long as energy input is equal to energy output, then a weight balance will be met, as if energy input exceeds energy output one will increase in weight and vice versa.

    the fat consumed in atkins is mainly down to intestinal hormones preventing the hunger feeling, look up Cholecystokinin. then reffer back to under extreme conditions

    http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/gi/cck.html
    http://www.annecollins.com/lose_weight/cholecystokinin-ckk.htm
     
  3. Beastt

    Beastt New Member

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    Because it's directly responsible for the explosion of premature deaths in developed countries. The top ten causes of death in the U.S. in 2001 clearly showed that almost 75% of those deaths were related to heart disease, (including strokes) and diabetes - all diet related. Adult onset diabetes is a fat-related disease. Though the effect is a reduced ability to utilize sugars, sugars are not the cause.
    What would make you conclude that carbohydrates aren't a natural food source? It's not like they're all synthetic or something. Most grains and a good portion of almost all plant-based foods are carbohydrates.

    I love the concept of "unnatural energy". ;)

    Humans don't digest cholesterol well. Studies have been done in which rabbits were fed a diet rich in fats and cholesterol. When autopsied later, these rabbits showed atherosclerotic build up in their arteries. Rabbits fed a normal diet which includes carbohydrates showed no such build up. Then dogs and cats were fed diets rich in fats and cholesterol and their autopsies showed no such atherosclerosis. Animals which have evolved to live on high-fat, high-cholesterol diets fare well on such foods. Man clearly does not.

    The point of the low-carb diet it to restrict the bodies preferred source of energy, (carbohydrates), so that it will be forced to burn stored fats for energy. The energy production is less efficient but it does lead to weight loss. Though some of the fat eaten will be metabolised and converted to energy, much of it will end up as deposits in the arteries along with the toxins released from the stored fat that was burned for energy. Fat is one of the places the body stores toxins it can't quickly expell. This is especially true of pesticide residues, the intake of which is much higher in a low-carb diet. So not only do you end up ingesting more fat-soluble toxins, you also release more from your fat stores. This leads to a rise in toxic residues dispersed within the body.

    I'm not sure there really is such a thing as carb-overload. What are the mechanics and conditions of such a condition?

    You can grow far more plant-based (hence carbohydrate) foods on a given plot of land than non-plant based foods, (i.e. livestock). But then you have to grow the carbohydrate foods to feed to the livestock and in so doing, you lose approximately 90% of the caloric value. So perhaps I'm missing your point?

    Please state the source of your "fact". If you burn the carbs you eat, you won't gain weight. Likewise if you burn the low-carb food you eat, you won't gain weight. But the low-carb foods are almost always laden with fats and cholesterol which your body doesn't break down well. The result is the aforementioned cardio-vascular disease. Statistically, those who restrict animal-based foods from their diets, tend to be thinner and healthier. So the idea that carbohydrates lead to obesity is quickly debunked. The problem is that people eat far more calories than they burn. The excess is stored by the body as fat. That said, perhaps it's not a bad idea to remember that a gram of carbohydrates contains 4-calories, while a gram of fat contains 9-calories.

    I agree that many foods labeled "low fat" aren't good food. That doesn't mean that the carbohydrates are bad or that fat is good. It just means that certain highly processed foods contain little nutritive value. If you eat a high-carb, high-fat snack and then do enough exercise to burn roughly half of those calories, which calories do you suspect will be burned first, the carbs or the fats? Since the body prefers carbohydrates for fuel, the answer is pretty simple. So was it the carbs or the fats that were stored as fat?

    Of course it's not quite that simple. Some of each will be burned. But the body will burn carbohydrates if available preferentially to burning fat. Burning fat is less efficient so the choice is obvious.
     
  4. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

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    http://1stholistic.com/Nutrition/hol_nutr_does-excess-protein-turn-to-fat.htm
     
  5. Beastt

    Beastt New Member

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    The site correctly points out that calories you consume but don't burn will likely end up as fat regardless of whether they are carbohydrates, proteins or fats. The problem is that it over-simplifies a complex process and leaves the uninitiated with the idea that the body processes all nutrients equally and turns them all to fat equally. If you exercise to burn calories, the body will produce the majority of energy from cabohydrates if they're available and fats when carbohydrates become less available.
     
  6. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

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    they are used equally, fats and carbs. since fat is carbon and hydrogen atoms and carbohydrates are carbon hydrogen and oxygen, the only difference is that carbs have the oxygen that allows them to be burned off during anerobic exercise and fats require an extra source of oxygen, so they are more likely to be used when there is a supply of oxygen as it is demanded.

    either once the bodies glycogen supplies have been depleted or once the body has reached a steady state, in which a mixture of both fats and glycogen are mixed to provide a fuel source. also as explained under another part, fats are used within the mitochondria to make energy similar to that of glycogen, just offers a larger number ATP units than carbs, also fats are also used to resynthesize ATP within the Mitochondria.
     
  7. Beastt

    Beastt New Member

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    To say that the body uses fats, cholesterol and/or proteins equally in the production of energy is a gross over-simplification. There are a ton of sources that will point out that carbs are the preferred and most efficient energy source. That's why endurance athletes are inclined to carbo-load prior to exercise.

    http://home.howstuffworks.com/food2.htm
     
  8. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    And during. And post exercise. :)
    Bring on the pasta, rice, and bread :)
     
  9. Beastt

    Beastt New Member

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    Good point. I tend to forget about the importance of post-exercise nutrition and the role carbohydrates play in that.

    As additional sources, closesupport, here is another small sampling;

    http://www.parentsplace.com/expert/nutritionist/articles/0,10335,240075_108635,00.html
    "Carbohydrates are the ideal fuel for your body. You can get energy from only three other sources...fat, protein, and alcohol but of all of these, carbohydrates are the most efficient and most preferred."

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/planet27.htm
    "Carbohydrates spare protein and are your body's principal source of fuel."

    http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/nutrition/a/aa030601a.htm
    "Carbohydrates are the primary fuel for intense muscular efforts, and should be the cornerstone of an athlete's diet, regardless of the sport they play."

    http://www.weightlossforall.com/carbohydrates.htm
    "Carbohydrates are the body's primary source of fuel. The energy can be released quickly and easily to fulfill immediate requirement within cells."

    I think perhaps some sources have underplayed the importance of the differences you pointed out concerning the metabolization of fats verses carbohydrates which leads to the idea that either can be used almost as equals. Energy gels contain zero fat and zero protein, (as far as those I've read the labels on), for a reason. They're for producing the maximum energy in the shortest reasonable time with the least bulk. If fats could be used equally, you'd be able to get about 44% more energy from an equal portion of "fat gel". We don't see fat gels on the market because fat is a less efficient source of energy. We don't see protein gels because protein isn't about energy, it's about rebuilding. We see carbohydrate gels because carbs are about energy.

    Please feel free to fill in the rather large gaps I've left, RicStern or Roadie_Scum. It never hurts to see the whole picture, not that I can always follow the entire chain of events in the detail you can provide, but I'm still learning.
     
  10. wiredued

    wiredued New Member

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    I'd like to ad to that it upsets the chemistry of your skin's sweat which acts as a third kidney under protein and/or (phosphorus/sodium) overload and can leave you susceptible to tinea infections such as athletes foot.
     
  11. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

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    It was originally believed that proteins because of there structure and function of the body, where spared as a energy source wherever possible, more recently studies have demonstrated that during prolonged exercise, amino acids are metobolized as energyalong with carbs and fats. Apart from providing energy they are ale to be metabolized to glucose (through glucogenesis) and therefore provide glucose for those tissues which have to rely upon it as an energy source and support the oxidation of of other fuels such as fats.
    before the amino acids can be used as an energy source the nitrogen molecule must be removed through a process known as deamination and e converted to amonia, leaving the remainder of the amino acid the carbon skeleton to be used as an energy source . the majority of the caron skeleton resulting from deamination from either pyruvate or one of the krebs cycle intermediates. in this state they can easily enter into the oxidative pathway and be used to generate ATP within the mitochondria (the amminia that accumulates within the body must be removed from the body soon as accumulated since this can be extremly hazadous. this is converted to urea within the liver, released into the blood then transfered to the kidney and excreted as urine.

    the caron atoms may be converted as glucose to be used to support those tissues that are dependant upon it. this the glucogenic process (the making of new glucose) is especially important as it allows the liver to maintain its supply of glucose to muscle and the rain even when its own stores are low.

    eg. the liver can not store sufficient glycogen to cover totally the demands for glucose over night, irrespective of how much food was consumed the previous day. So, in order to ensure that the supply of glucose on the circulation matchs its removal, increasing the rate of glucose production from glucogenesis provides sufficient glucose until more nutrients ecome available at breakfast. in the same way glycerol released into the circulation with free fatty acids can be taken up by the liver and converted to glucose by this process.

    the carbon skeletons may e used as an energy source for those tissues where theh internal stores of carbs is reduced. in addition to simply providing energy they make it possile to supply the krebs cycle intermediates required to replace those that have een lost through the cycle, these would normally e maintained from carb metab but, as glycogen stores ecome depleted and the rate of carb metab is reduced, an alternative supply of krebs cycle intermediates is advantageous, unless the supply of these intermediates is maintained, it is not possile for the krebs cycle to maintaind, it is not possile for the krebs cycle to continue generating ATP from other substrates, such as fatty acids once the carb stores are limited.
    under conditions where the supply of glucose exceeds the requirement for energy, the carbon skeleton can be converted to fatty acids and stored as triglycerides (fat).

    point 1: energy is stored within the ody mainly as glycogen (cars) and triglycerides (fat) teh energy is derived from theh foodstuff that we eat carbs, fat, protein
    point 2: Adenseine trisphosphate (ATP) serves the transfer of energy from the transfer of food stuff within the mitochondria of cells that require energy by the formation an the breaking of a phospahte bond.
    point 3:teh amount of ATP is limited. inorder to prevent ATP ecoming depleted, processes by which ATP is generated must be tightly coupled with the processes that use ATP.
    point 4;creatine phosphate can e used to regulate ATP to alleviate any accute mismatch in the production and the usage of ATP, yet the supplyis limited.
    point 4: the graeter you work the greater the rate at which ATP is utilized, and the greater the rate of ATP resynthesis.
    point ; energy can beb derived from the oxidation of intramuscular stores (glycogen and triglyceride opr sustartes derived to the working muscle y blood (eg glucose, free fatty acids, ketones, branch chain ammino acids) energy can e derived from the incomplete combustion of intramuscular glycogen to lactic acid -- anerobic glycolosis

    i'll finish up later
     
  12. Beastt

    Beastt New Member

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    Hence the warning in VO2's post, quoted above, about excess urea, (#3) and the extra strain put on the kidneys through elimination of water which helps to purge the extreme levels of ketones produced IF sufficient carbohydrates aren't consumed, (#11 above). In addition to that, low carb, (AKA: high protein) diets alter the blood's natural pH toward acidity. The body draws calcium from the skeleton to bring the pH back into a natural, healthy balance but then most of that calcium is not reabsorbed. Instead it is filtered from the blood by the kidneys again placing a greater strain on the lumen in the kidneys and potentially leading to the development of osteoporosis as noted in VO2's quoted post, (#3) above and in extreme cases where kidney function is already compromised, notable additional kidney damage.

    (By the way, I'm sure you already know this but it appears your keyboard could use a bit of attention around the area of the B-key. Some dirt on the contacts perhaps?)
     
  13. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

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    i know, if you care to read through i amde a point of saying 1.2 1.4g\kg body weight of protein perday for endurance athletes, or from 1.4 1.7g\kg protein for strength athletes thsi should make up 12 \15% of the total calories one consumes perday.

    oh and the key thing that you reffered to may be down to the glass of irn bru that the baby poured on it earlier, unfortunately i cant blame the irn bru for the spelling mistakes
     
  14. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

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    ive already explained somewhere that fats and protein invoke the production of bile salts and intestinal hormones mainly cholyenstokenin the bodys natural appettite supressant that is mainly produced when protein or fat is introduced into the small intestines. (Endocrine system)
     
  15. Beastt

    Beastt New Member

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    My intent was largely to agree with you and to tie the information provided by VO2 to your information. I don't think you and I see exactly eye to eye where protein is concerned. but in most other aspects I think were pretty much on the same page. I have seen the protein recommendations you've posted on a number of websites so before I say anything else, I'll confirm that your numbers are in agreement with accepted standards.

    But I think the problem is that people immediately assume they're not already getting enough protein and in most cases, that's simply not the situation. So you end up with people rushing out to buy protein suppliments because they think it's going to promote muscle growth or boost their energy levels. Since most were getting more than they need without the suppliments, the extra protein is not only wasted, it's potentially detrimental to their health. It's certainly not your fault or anyone else's fault that people don't realize that their normal diet is, in most cases, already more than sufficient where protein is involved so I'm not pointing a finger at you. I'm attempting to point a finger at the problems with over-consumption of protein. Many people see it as a miracle nutrient where more is always better. Such, as you know, is simply not the case.
     
  16. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

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    NU gels contain polycose/polyjoule http://www.sesahs.nsw.gov.au/albionstcentre/nutrition/supplements.asp
     
  17. Beastt

    Beastt New Member

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    Probably not a bad drink for gaining weight if the only concern is putting on extra weight. It's also not a bad recipe for calcium depletion.

    From what I can find on polycose and polyjoule, they're just other names for maltodextrin powder - carbohydrate.
     
  18. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

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    maybe your right, the point i would like to make is that if one consumes a balanced diet, not high carb, not low car, avoiding simple sugars not cutting out fat totally then like me, the energy you require is the energy you consume to use, before longer training sessions or races 3 days prior to that then increasing your carb intake would be recomnded, as long as the calories that are consumed is equal to the energy you require with surplus calories to spare and store.

    it works for me; typical day.

    4.00am X3 weetabix + (porridge oats)

    x9.00am x 2 brown toaste, beans, x2\4 sausages x2 bacon x 2\4 ash browns (apple\orange)

    1pm steak pie beans chips

    6.00pm (chinese take away) crispy seaweed and wandering dragon (chicken in oyster sauce) + honey glazed spare ribs

    plenty coffee and plenty water...

    now you truthfully tell me that, that is an healthy diet i aint overweight, i am my perfect weight, i eat 3 or 4 meals a day and they arent small, but i am my perfect weight for my height and i have been for the last 31yrs.
     
  19. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

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    its what i used to mix up, for longer runs,

    not telling..... secret works for me helps prevent bonking for me.

    ohhhhh and if you have the same book as me open then there is a chance that we are on the same page:), since i aint to good at english yet alone explaining things, plus it was 7/8 years or so i was into this stuff, its only poor advice from some purchase nutrieants this, purchase vitamins that, when really they should e mix your own by, and get your vitamins from foods rich in them as source.
     
  20. Beastt

    Beastt New Member

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    My personal opinion, and I'll reiterate that it's little more than that, is that you're a bit heavy on your proteins and with them there is a lot of fat. Now you're obviously an active individual which means you're probably burning off most of the calories consumed in the dishes which are high in fats and proteins, but burning the calories isn't the whole picture. I talked about the problems with fats and cholesterol before and you're well informed enough about diet that there is little reason to go into it again.

    If it were me, I'd try trading about half of the protein/fatty dishes for something more balanced with some protein, a little fat and some more carbohydrates. Pasta with olives, mushrooms or perhaps your favorite low-fat meat in the sauce instead of spare ribs. Maybe a rice and vegetable dish instead of the chicken. Anyway, my diet certainly isn't an example of pure health and energy. I guess it's always easier to know what's best than to practice it.

    If I were to break your example down, I'd probably note the following.

    X3 weetabix + (porridge oats): Good

    x 2 brown toaste: Good but go easy on the butter/margerine

    beans: Good source of protein and fiber

    apple\orange: Fruit is a great source of natural sugars and usually some fiber

    pie: Depends on the kind of pie

    beans: Still a good source of protein and fiber. Might not need 2 servings per day. Of course it depends on the size of the servings.

    chips: Depends somewhat on how many you have. Most are fried, some are baked. Baked is probably preferrable.

    crispy seaweed and wandering dragon: I'm not familiar enough with the nutritive value of seaweed to make comment. Chicken is well... better than red meat, but not quite so much as most people believe.

    Steak: Heavy, fatty protein

    4 sausages: Heavy, fatty, fried protein.

    x2 bacon: Heavy, fatty, fried protein

    4 [h]ash browns: Fried anything is probably best in moderation
    ("Ash browns" are what I call them when I'm in charge of the kitchen.) ;)

    honey glazed spare ribs: Fat and protein

    Coffee: I know many people utilize coffee for the fatty acids that form in the blood which can be used as an energy source when blood sugars near depletion. Personally, I don't care for the taste, nor for the addiction that most people form. Caffeine is suspected to cause a number of negative health issues.

    Now that's a super-critical review and I mean no offense. Overall, compared to the standard American diet, it's probably quite good. I'd hate for anyone to do such a critique of my diet. I'd probably feel a bit defensive afterward. It's just that I reduced the fats in my diet about 12-years ago and now when I see how much fat most people consume, not to mention going overboard on protein, I'm left just a bit dazzled.

    (And all this from a guy who had to get up half way through the post to throw away a candy bar wrapper.) ;)
     
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