Hill climbing strategy for short/fast group rides

[TheMadOne]

I'm wondering if anyone can help in optimizing my hill climbing strategy for 40-50 mi non-stop group rides at 18-20 mph avg over flat to rolling terrain with 100'-200' climbs. I'm currently 225 pounds at 6'-0" and riding with guys who are 50 pounds lighter at my height. I'm a strong rider, but naturally I have a lower power/weight ratio than slimmer riders, so I need more time to climb anything but the shortest hills.

Obviously moving to the front of the group before the climb gives a little extra time to climb without getting dropped off the back of the group, because it takes the group some time to pass you. And climbing while seated is more efficient, plus with all that upper body mass, it's not necessary to stand to put the power into the crank. But what is the optimal effort profile?

Most of the climbing advice I have seen says to start the climb in a lower gear at a sustainable effort, and to increase the effort and upshift during the climb, saving a final burst to accelerate over the top. This may work for skinny racers, but I'm not sure this is the best way to get my fat ass up the hill. When I do this, I end up having to continue going maxed out for an addional 5 min hard interval breaking my own wind to get back on the end of the paceline. Not fun.

Lately I have tried doing the opposite. I ride off the front of the group before a climb and accelerate to hit the bottom of the hill at ~30mph, then try to stay on top of a big gear and keep the speed up as long as I can without blowing up. Then I drop to the 34/28 low gear on my compact, and finish the climb at a recovery pace. When I do this, I seem to get dropped nearer the top of the hill, and can usually pick up the stragglers at the back of the pack.

I'm not sure if this is working beacuse it's the off season, and/or if I've been getting a better workout by carrying the extra weight around. My intuitive sense is that the all-in strategy is probably better for training rides anyway, but would not be useful for a longer ride like the double century I'm training for. But I would be interested in hearing what other clydes have found in their experience riding with fast groups of lighter riders.

 

[swampy1970]

The training rides and the double century are two completely different efforts. The former you can just continue doing what you're doing, with a bit less emphasis on getting used to riding out of the sadde a bit more. If the climbs are short then out of the saddle riding produces much more power. Like anything else, it takes a little bit of getting used to in order to up the efficiency of that position.

For the double century - pacing is key. Don't blast up the hills... Resist the temptation.

What double are you going to be riding?

 

[TheMadOne]

I've been doing 4-5 spin classes a week while the weather is ****, and probably half of the class is out of the saddle, but I can't comfortably climb out of the saddle for more than a very short time on my road bike. I'm much more comfortable climbing in the saddle, and I have no problem putting out plenty of power seated, even when lighter riders are standing. My understanding is that it's more efficient to remain seated if possible, so I would only stand if I was trying to climb a very steep grade, or just to give my butt a quick break.

I know that giving max effort burns the glycogen out of your fast twich fibers, so that would not be appropriate for a longer ride. But for the shorter group rides it seems to work better, for me anyway.

I'm looking to do the Connectucut River Double in April, The VT 100/200 in June and/or the Saratoga 12 hour in July.

 

[TheMadOne]

For the double century - pacing is key. Don't blast up the hills... Resist the temptation.

To your point, we had nice weather for a change, so I did back-to-back centuries this weekend. On Sat I rode with a really fast group in the AM, and could only hang with them for an hour, with about half that in HR zone-5 (>90% HRmax). On Sun I rode with my regular AA group, and although they were only 1 mph slower on average, I was able to hang with them while staying out of zone-5, and could maintain a fast pace in the afternoon as well, finishing the second century 10% faster (5:44).

As to the hill climbing strategy, I'm thinking that attacking the hill early may work for me because I am recruiting fast twitch fibers and using them up before finishing up on the slow twitch fibers. I don't seem to be able to recruit those fast twitch fibers as easily at the end of a long climb.

 

[Turbo329]

I'm wondering if anyone can help in optimizing my hill climbing strategy for 40-50 mi non-stop group rides at 18-20 mph avg over flat to rolling terrain with 100'-200' climbs. I'm currently 225 pounds at 6'-0" and riding with guys who are 50 pounds lighter at my height. I'm a strong rider, but naturally I have a lower power/weight ratio than slimmer riders, so I need more time to climb anything but the shortest hills.

Obviously moving to the front of the group before the climb gives a little extra time to climb without getting dropped off the back of the group, because it takes the group some time to pass you. And climbing while seated is more efficient, plus with all that upper body mass, it's not necessary to stand to put the power into the crank. But what is the optimal effort profile?

Most of the climbing advice I have seen says to start the climb in a lower gear at a sustainable effort, and to increase the effort and upshift during the climb, saving a final burst to accelerate over the top. This may work for skinny racers, but I'm not sure this is the best way to get my fat ass up the hill. When I do this, I end up having to continue going maxed out for an addional 5 min hard interval breaking my own wind to get back on the end of the paceline. Not fun.

Lately I have tried doing the opposite. I ride off the front of the group before a climb and accelerate to hit the bottom of the hill at ~30mph, then try to stay on top of a big gear and keep the speed up as long as I can without blowing up. Then I drop to the 34/28 low gear on my compact, and finish the climb at a recovery pace. When I do this, I seem to get dropped nearer the top of the hill, and can usually pick up the stragglers at the back of the pack.

I'm not sure if this is working beacuse it's the off season, and/or if I've been getting a better workout by carrying the extra weight around. My intuitive sense is that the all-in strategy is probably better for training rides anyway, but would not be useful for a longer ride like the double century I'm training for. But I would be interested in hearing what other clydes have found in their experience riding with fast groups of lighter riders.

Hey man,

I'm no expert on this stuff but when I ride with smaller riders I use the time on the flats to gap them as far as I can. Unless your friends are pros this might work for you. Bigger guys have an easier time maintaining speeds on the flats and where I could coast along at 22mph (I have aero wheels )they were working pretty hard at 20mph trying to stay in my draft. If you can gap them good enough they'll just pull you in by the time you get through the climbs and then you can start over.

220lbs was my riding weight last season so I know exactly how you feel. This strategy kind of sucks because you'll rarely be wheel to wheel with them but if you do it right you'll end up at the destination all together.

 

[TheMadOne]

Sure, you can get extra time to climb by riding off the front, or the rear. I'm not sure about riding out in front all the time breaking your own wind, rather than spending some time in the pack or at least sucking wheel off another straggler in the back when you can. Yes, us clydes lose out on power/weight ratio, and have to compensate with our power/drag ratio as you suggest. So I definetly have no problem keeping up while drafting in the pack, and can ride faster than the pack to catch up to them when I have to (except if there's a strong headwind where the drag penalty is greater).

But I think I'd rather be in back with the target ahead of me, knowing exactly what I need to do, rather than riding off the front and having to look back and guess. That may work OK if you ride the same route all the time. But in my club we do leaders' choice, so you may miss a turn, and the ride leaders will often call an extra turn if they want to put you back in the rear!

Generally when I try to slowly ride off the front, some of the alpha-dogs in the group will go along, and this sort of defeats the purpose (and yes, when I ride with the pros the whole pace line will match my extra effort, and if I let off they'll just go on by like a freight train). So to get some extra time to climb, I have to really put the hammer down before a hill and drop them so hard they won't even try. That's how I stumbled onto the all-in strategy.

 

[tonyzackery]

Took a read to this with some interest even though "technically" I'm not a clyde - well, give or take a hamburger or two...

As you've discovered, there's no magical incantation or mind trick that you can employ in order to maintain contact with the group when short hills must be addressed - sounds like you've got all the available tricks in your repetoire already.

That said, "when you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and state the obvious - you're gonna have to increase your L6 (30sec-1min) power in order to really blast over those short 100'-200' hills, or (Oh My Gosh) lose weight. Depending on your current bodyfat percentage, I'd say increasing L6 power considerably and decreasing your weight are highly doable propositions...If the hills are as short as you state, then you should (after some focused training) be able blast over those while standing the entire time...

 

[TheMadOne]

Yes, obviously the optimum strategy is to lose weight without losing power. I'm working on that, and losing about 1 lb/100 mi, so it will come eventually. More importantly, my body composition is also changing, so I'm losing more fat, but partially offsetting that with muscle gain, which lets me carry the weight a little better in the mean time. But it's hard to lose weight and train at the same time. I'll probably focus a little more on weight loss during the tapering period prior to events.

I'm interested in how to increase short term power as you suggest (other than riding hard up hills). What I have been doing while spinning is working on extending time to exhaustion on VO2max heart rate intervals (172 bp for me--my max is 185 bpm). I stand in position three and ramp up the resisance until I get to that HR, then hold it there as long as I can, then recover and repeat 3-5 times. It seems to be working. I was able to do up to 6 min intervals above 85%VO2maxHR on the last ride, and was not breathing as hard, especially initially. It kind of surprised me to see my HR that high while my respiration was not sky high. But I'd be interested to hear what other training I should be doing.

I'm also interested in why you suggest climbing while standing, especially for a heavier rider. I have no problem sitting and passing lighter riders standing and climbing (for a little while anyway). If sitting is more efficient, and I can get adequate power to the pavement seated, then why stand?

 

[jhuskey]

Yes, obviously the optimum strategy is to lose weight without losing power. I'm working on that, and losing about 1 lb/100 mi, so it will come eventually. More importantly, my body composition is also changing, so I'm losing more fat, but partially offsetting that with muscle gain, which lets me carry the weight a little better in the mean time. But it's hard to lose weight and train at the same time. I'll probably focus a little more on weight loss during the tapering period prior to events.

I'm interested in how to increase short term power as you suggest (other than riding hard up hills). What I have been doing while spinning is working on extending time to exhaustion on VO2max heart rate intervals (172 bp for me--my max is 185 bpm). I stand in position three and ramp up the resisance until I get to that HR, then hold it there as long as I can, then recover and repeat 3-5 times. It seems to be working. I was able to do up to 6 min intervals above 85%VO2maxHR on the last ride, and was not breathing as hard, especially initially. It kind of surprised me to see my HR that high while my respiration was not sky high. But I'd be interested to hear what other training I should be doing.

I'm also interested in why you suggest climbing while standing, especially for a heavier rider. I have no problem sitting and passing lighter riders standing and climbing (for a little while anyway). If sitting is more efficient, and I can get adequate power to the pavement seated, then why stand?

The endless debate, whether it is better to mash the pedals hard for a longer sustained time in a higher gear or stand and spin a lower gear at a higher cadence.
My opinion is that is depends on the individual and the circumstance and of course the one that can do both well has an advantage.
Knowing when to deploy a particular tactics can also be a big advantage.

 

[TheMadOne]

The endless debate, whether it is better to mash the pedals hard for a longer sustained time in a higher gear or stand and spin a lower gear at a higher cadence.

Actually, that was not my question. Obviously there is an optimum cadence and gear for every situation, so let's assume you are optimizing that somehow (assume you have a computer controled continuously variable transmission if you will). So then should you start off with a harder effort and ease up as the climb progresses, or should you start easy and push harder, or is a level effort optimum, and why? Then along with that, when should you stand, if at all, if you are the heaviest rider in the group?

 

[Turbo329]

Actually, that was not my question. Obviously there is an optimum cadence and gear for every situation, so let's assume you are optimizing that somehow (assume you have a computer controled continuously variable transmission if you will). So then should you start off with a harder effort and ease up as the climb progresses, or should you start easy and push harder, or is a level effort optimum, and why? Then along with that, when should you stand, if at all, if you are the heaviest rider in the group?

If I were going to guess, I would say to hit it hard in the beginning and then pace yourself through the rest of it.

My reason for saying this is because there have been studies that have shown that initial sharp bursts of power prime the body to recruit more muscle fibers throughout the particular exercise.

So in other words, get a jump on the hill, feel the burn, and then back off and settle into a comfortable pace that will get you over.

 

[tonyzackery]

I'm interested in how to increase short term power as you suggest (other than riding hard up hills). What I have been doing while spinning is working on extending time to exhaustion on VO2max heart rate intervals (172 bp for me--my max is 185 bpm). I stand in position three and ramp up the resisance until I get to that HR, then hold it there as long as I can, then recover and repeat 3-5 times. It seems to be working. I was able to do up to 6 min intervals above 85%VO2maxHR on the last ride, and was not breathing as hard, especially initially. It kind of surprised me to see my HR that high while my respiration was not sky high. But I'd be interested to hear what other training I should be doing.

I'm also interested in why you suggest climbing while standing, especially for a heavier rider. I have no problem sitting and passing lighter riders standing and climbing (for a little while anyway). If sitting is more efficient, and I can get adequate power to the pavement seated, then why stand?

Why try to reinvent the wheel here? If what you need is more power on those short hills to keep from getting dropped during your group rides, what better way is there to try and increase that power than by riding those hills hard in training? Is there something I'm missing in your question?

IMO, the work you're currently doing (vo2 stuff) is not hard enough (powerwise) to be effective training for the 100'-200' hills you referred to in your original post. The L6 work is not dependent on your heartrate as it will lag considerably in the 30s - 1min intervals you need to do to increase your power to keep up with the pack on the hills during your group rides. These intervals are just under sprint intensity. Full recovery is advisable.

I suggested standing on the short hills because most folks can put out more power when standing for short bursts - and 100'-200' of climbing is a relatively short burst of effort. You state you don't need it, but according to your original post you stated you go backwards compared to the lighter riders in the group on these hills. I fully agree to avoid standing if at all possible - those <160lbs waifs can get away with it for extended periods, I know I can't...

 

[Sassonian]

I'm 6'7" and 275lbs. I find that if I go off the front at the start of climbs on a fast group ride - it just encourages the climbers to attack. You become a big juicy carrot that's easy picking for them. It would be the right thing to do if it didn't elicit a response from the rest of the crew and they just let you do your thing off the front - but they rarely do that. This is doubly true when you're racing.

So If that's happening - the best thing to do is to get to 1 or 2 wheels from the front at the beginning of the climb. That way the pace stays down and you have a chance of hanging on over the top. You have to make use of superior speed on the downhill to close the gaps if you need to.

As to standing - it's great for maintaining momentum on the steepest bits. Like you, I climb mainly seated - but get out of the saddle if I need to close a gap or to get through a steep corner etc. But like someone else stated earlier - you need to practice getting out of the saddle.

And specific power training has helped me greatly. I decided to forego spin classes last season and did a Power To Your Pedals program that I got from RoadBikeRiderReview. Made a big difference.

Weight is the key though. There's no amount of strength that will see me hang on when the hills get long and steep. But I can hang on better now on rollers and shorter and not so steep climbs.

My 2 cents...

Adrian.