Hincapie's broken fork in Paris-Roubaix

[spin156]

Tim McTeague wrote:
> "Derk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > My guess is that this event will be often cited in discussions about
> > carbon
> > forks.
> >
> > Gr, Derk
>
> As others have posted the steerer was aluminum, not carbon. Looking at the
> photo of Hincapie's bike @ VeloNews
> http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/9720.0.html it appears that the
> stem just came off. Look below the lower headset cup and you can see the
> amount of steerer showing that would normally have the stem attached. My
> guess is the stem bolts either came loose or broke and the stem then popped
> off and the fork slipped down after the crash.
>
> Tim McTeague

Hi Tim,
In going back over these posts, it appears that I came to (essentially)
the same conclusion that you did. It was not my intention to hijack
your thoughts. Sorry, if it came across that way. I do agree
with your conclusion ;-)

Cheers,
Bill

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Andrew Lee" <whatsupandrewathotmaildotcom> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > Per cyclingnews.com's report of the bike yesterday
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/e7gy6
> >
> > George was riding a prototype designed to use "long" reach brakes
> > and 26 mm tubulars, and a fork form the Satellite line:
> >
> > Scott Daubert: One thing I forgot to tell you about is that George
> > is running with a different fork; it has a longer axle to crown
> > dimension, and it has a longer rake than the normal Bontrager Race
> > Lite fork.
> >
> > CN: Is this something new you'll bring into the Trek line?
> >
> > SD: No, it's actually from Bontrager's Satellite line, almost from
> > their commuter level, but it has dimensions that are appropriate
> > for Roubaix. It's an in-house made fork, made at Trek from OCLV
> > carbon, it's just on a different model bike.
> >
> > CN: Is it a steel steerer?
> >
> > SD: No, it's aluminium; it's been blasted then anodized black.
>
> It sounds like they are saying that they anodized Hincapie's fork
> steerer, and the normal Bontrager Satellite fork is not anodized
> black. Anyone know if that is the case (Mike J.)? If so, I wonder
> why they did that.

Yup. The steerer was bead blasted and anodized black per the report in
cyclingnews.com's review of Hincapie's bike. You can't anodize carbon
fiber, so I figured that was pretty clear I wasn't talking about the
fork. The fork would have been just repainted to match the bike.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > It sounds like they are saying that they anodized Hincapie's fork
> > steerer, and the normal Bontrager Satellite fork is not anodized
> > black. Anyone know if that is the case (Mike J.)? If so, I wonder
> > why they did that.
>
> That's true, and as yet I have no idea what it means or why they
> would do that. The color of anodizing is irrelevant, as far as I
> know, although some types of anodizing are limited in terms of how
> the appearance can be varied; thus, the fact that it's "black"
> anodizing may tell us something useful, but what that something is, I
> don't know. Yet.
>
> But I do suspect that, for whatever reason, someone decided to use a
> non-stock fork column on George's fork. I sure hope it wasn't in an
> effort to save weight...

Check the cyclingnews.com article which includes discussion about that
very topic with the mechanic and Trek rep. They used the Satellite fork
because it had more rake than the standard Madone fork, and possibly
also because it had an aluminum rather than carbon fiber steerer.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
"spin156" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Antti Salonen wrote:
> > Helmut Springer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
>
> > Also there's absolutely no question that the steerer broke below
> > the stem. It was well visible on TV and for example here:
> >
> > http://www.velonews.com/images/int/9720.14346.f.jpg
> >
> > -as
>
> What I see in that picture is a gap of 3-4cm between the crown race
> and the bottom of the head tube. So, if you push the fork back
> up into the head tube maybe that 3-4cm will pop back out of the top
> and you can just bolt a new stem on it.

Not necessarily. If the part of the steerer clamped in the stem broke
off, there'd be nothing to restrain the fork in the head tube and it
could slip down quite easily. It would look just the same in that photo
if the stem slipped off the steerer and then the fork slipped down
through the headset. There's no way to tell from the photographs I have
seen yet.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Derk wrote:
> > My guess is that this event will be often cited in discussions
> > about carbon forks.
>
> Paris Roubaix, broken forks.
>
> I bet most of the forks broken in P-R have been steel. --D-y

I've been following bike racing for years and I remember no broken steel
forks in P-R. (Doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course, and it'd be
interesting to hear of any). Broken handlebars and broken stems aplenty.

I remember reading about Greg Lemond's mechanic drilling a hole through
the stem into the bars and putting in a wood screw to keep the bars from
slipping in the stem.

 

[[email protected]]

I learned years ago, when the TdF was first being covered live via the
internet, to stay out of the news groups if I wanted to watch the
coverage on OLN that night. I'm surprised sheldon hasn't learned that
lesson yet.

 

[Antti Salonen]

spin156 <[email protected]> wrote:

> An expansion plug could easily stay with the stem if it popped out of
> the top of the steerer tube.

I fail to see how. Like the stem, the expander attaches only to the
steerer. If they both come off the steerer there is only gravity to keep
them together, and it doesn't help much when you perform a somersault.

Besides, I don't believe both the stem and the expansion plug could BOTH
just pop off the steerer all of a sudden. If the bolts broke on the
stem and it would come loose the rider would notice it or he would crash
if the bars suddenly rotate. The stem would still be kept on the
steerer tube by the expander and the cap.

-as

 

[[email protected]]

The gap of 3-4cm is an elastomer shock, not the steerer slipping out of
the frame.

The steerer had to have broken at the top race for the star nut cap to
hang with the stem.

It is interesting that the fork/fr wheel did not come free of the
frame in the crash but it did not.

Now, who can say from the pictures that the steerer is black now that
we know what is visible below the lower race is the elastomer and not
the steerer?


Stig Ortiz
Ranch Abajo, KS



spin156 wrote:
> Antti Salonen wrote:
> > Helmut Springer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
>
> > Also there's absolutely no question that the steerer broke below the
> > stem. It was well visible on TV and for example here:
> >
> > http://www.velonews.com/images/int/9720.14346.f.jpg
> >
> > -as
>
> What I see in that picture is a gap of 3-4cm between the crown race and
> the bottom of the head tube. So, if you push the fork back up into
> the head tube maybe that 3-4cm will pop back out of the top and you can
> just bolt a new stem on it.
>
> I think there IS a question - based on the picture posted here - that
> the steerer tube broke. I still don't see much discussion about the
> fact that he crashed earlier in the race and the possible effect that
> crash had on the eventual failure.
>
> How 'bout this for speculation? In the first crash, the bike
> landed hard on the end of the handlebar and cracked something in the
> top cap or the stem - but this was not seen.
> Then, under the constant pounding of the pave the top cap and/or the
> stem just popped off and Georgie ended up with a set of unattached
> handlebars in his hand.

 

[spin156]

[email protected] wrote:
> The gap of 3-4cm is an elastomer shock, not the steerer slipping out of
> the frame.
>
> The steerer had to have broken at the top race for the star nut cap to
> hang with the stem.
>
Who says it's a star nut? There is no reason it could not be an
expansion plug.
As someone earlier pointed out, it's just there for the preload.
The stem does the real clamping. In fact, who's to say it was
even tight? Maybe it was an expansion plug that was not tight and
THAT contributed to the failure.


> It is interesting that the fork/fr wheel did not come free of the
> frame in the crash but it did not.
>
> Now, who can say from the pictures that the steerer is black now that
> we know what is visible below the lower race is the elastomer and not
> the steerer?
>
Someone earlier quoted an interview (pre-race) where it was said that
the steerer tube was alloy that had been "blasted" and anodized black.
Goodness knows why they would do that.


Cheers,
Bill

>
> Stig Ortiz
> Ranch Abajo, KS
>
>
>
> spin156 wrote:
> > Antti Salonen wrote:
> > > Helmut Springer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > Also there's absolutely no question that the steerer broke below the
> > > stem. It was well visible on TV and for example here:
> > >
> > > http://www.velonews.com/images/int/9720.14346.f.jpg
> > >
> > > -as
> >
> > What I see in that picture is a gap of 3-4cm between the crown race and
> > the bottom of the head tube. So, if you push the fork back up into
> > the head tube maybe that 3-4cm will pop back out of the top and you can
> > just bolt a new stem on it.
> >
> > I think there IS a question - based on the picture posted here - that
> > the steerer tube broke. I still don't see much discussion about the
> > fact that he crashed earlier in the race and the possible effect that
> > crash had on the eventual failure.
> >
> > How 'bout this for speculation? In the first crash, the bike
> > landed hard on the end of the handlebar and cracked something in the
> > top cap or the stem - but this was not seen.
> > Then, under the constant pounding of the pave the top cap and/or the
> > stem just popped off and Georgie ended up with a set of unattached
> > handlebars in his hand.

 

[Mike DeMicco]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> The gap of 3-4cm is an elastomer shock, not the steerer slipping out of
> the frame.

No, there was no suspension in the fork, just in the seat stays. What
you see in http://www.velonews.com/images/int/9720.14346.f.jpg is the
shiny fork race and the black steerer tube.

Helmut Springer is right. It's obvious from the picture and the OLN
video that the steerer tube broke near the bottom of the stem, that the
piece of broken steerer tube is still inside the stem, visible through
the stem cutouts and is still held in place by the star nut and cap.
>
> The steerer had to have broken at the top race for the star nut cap to
> hang with the stem.
>
> It is interesting that the fork/fr wheel did not come free of the
> frame in the crash but it did not.
>
> Now, who can say from the pictures that the steerer is black now that
> we know what is visible below the lower race is the elastomer and not
> the steerer?
>
>
> Stig Ortiz
> Ranch Abajo, KS
>
>
>
> spin156 wrote:
> > Antti Salonen wrote:
> > > Helmut Springer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > Also there's absolutely no question that the steerer broke below the
> > > stem. It was well visible on TV and for example here:
> > >
> > > http://www.velonews.com/images/int/9720.14346.f.jpg
> > >
> > > -as
> >
> > What I see in that picture is a gap of 3-4cm between the crown race and
> > the bottom of the head tube. So, if you push the fork back up into
> > the head tube maybe that 3-4cm will pop back out of the top and you can
> > just bolt a new stem on it.
> >
> > I think there IS a question - based on the picture posted here - that
> > the steerer tube broke. I still don't see much discussion about the
> > fact that he crashed earlier in the race and the possible effect that
> > crash had on the eventual failure.
> >
> > How 'bout this for speculation? In the first crash, the bike
> > landed hard on the end of the handlebar and cracked something in the
> > top cap or the stem - but this was not seen.
> > Then, under the constant pounding of the pave the top cap and/or the
> > stem just popped off and Georgie ended up with a set of unattached
> > handlebars in his hand.

--
Mike DeMicco <[email protected]>

 

[Jay Beattie]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Derk wrote:
> > > My guess is that this event will be often cited in discussions
> > > about carbon forks.
> >
> > Paris Roubaix, broken forks.
> >
> > I bet most of the forks broken in P-R have been steel. --D-y
>
> I've been following bike racing for years and I remember no broken steel
> forks in P-R. (Doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course, and it'd be
> interesting to hear of any). Broken handlebars and broken stems aplenty.
>
> I remember reading about Greg Lemond's mechanic drilling a hole through
> the stem into the bars and putting in a wood screw to keep the bars from
> slipping in the stem.

Jock Boyer brought some footage of the PR to a San Jose Bike Club
meeting many years ago when he was still racing. He had some nice
shots of guys with broken bars and stems going OTB. I was amazed at
the carnage. I guess that is why some racers see PR as a circus event.
-- Jay Beattie.

 

[Greg Estep]

[email protected] wrote:


> Now, who can say from the pictures that the steerer is black now that
> we know what is visible below the lower race is the elastomer and not
> the steerer?

This article, that was mentioned earlier,

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/apr06/roubaix06/?id=/tech/2006/features/hincapie_trek

has a reference to this photograph:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=hincapie_trek/IMG_9944

The stem pictured has a cutout through which the black stem is visible.
There is no guarantee, however, that this is the bike George was riding
when he crashed.

--
Greg Estep

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 08:11:19 +0000, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

>> It sounds like they are saying that they anodized Hincapie's fork
>> steerer, and the normal Bontrager Satellite fork is not anodized black.
>> Anyone know if that is the case (Mike J.)? If so, I wonder why they
>> did that.

> That's true, and as yet I have no idea what it means or why they would
> do that. The color of anodizing is irrelevant, as far as I know,
> although some types of anodizing are limited in terms of how the
> appearance can be varied; thus, the fact that it's "black" anodizing may
> tell us something useful, but what that something is, I don't know. Yet.

> But I do suspect that, for whatever reason, someone decided to use a
> non-stock fork column on George's fork. I sure hope it wasn't in an
> effort to save weight...

I read some other blurb that this was taller, high clearance fork like a
touring or cross fork, to accept a bigger tire for the cobbles. Such
forks are rarely super lightweight, with carbon steerers, because it's not
an issue with touring cyclists.

I doubt anodizing has anything to do with this accident. If the bike was
crashed earlier in the race, there's a good chance the fork was damaged
enough to break later on.

Matt O.

 

[G.T.]

spin156 wrote:
> Antti Salonen wrote:
>
>>Helmut Springer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>
>>Also there's absolutely no question that the steerer broke below the
>>stem. It was well visible on TV and for example here:
>>
>>http://www.velonews.com/images/int/9720.14346.f.jpg
>>
>>-as
>
>
> What I see in that picture is a gap of 3-4cm between the crown race and
> the bottom of the head tube. So, if you push the fork back up into
> the head tube maybe that 3-4cm will pop back out of the top and you can
> just bolt a new stem on it.


What you don't see is how far the steerer is down in the headtube. So
how can you tell how much steerer would be popping out of the top?

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

 

[Helmut Springer]

spin156 <[email protected]> wrote:
>> No, this was definitely a catastrophic break. If the stem and
>> been 'loosened' by the previous crash, he would have known it was
>> loose long before the bars came off, then asked for a bike
>> change. loose stems don't just suddenly pop off.
>
> I still agree with Tim McTeague. If you were watching the
> same race I was then you must have noticed those guys arms
> vibrating like crazy. Yet, you say that he would have known it
> was loose long before. Sorry, but I disagree completely.

Have you ever been riding bad roads? If the stem becomes loose,
i.e. the bar can turn freely, you notice immediately as you are
applying considerable steering forces all the time...

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

 

[G.T.]

spin156 wrote:
> Antti Salonen wrote:
>
>>spin156 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>What I see in that picture is a gap of 3-4cm between the crown race and
>>>the bottom of the head tube. So, if you push the fork back up into
>>>the head tube maybe that 3-4cm will pop back out of the top and you can
>>>just bolt a new stem on it.
>>
>>I doubt it because as you can see, the top cap is still in its place on
>>top of the stem. Without a piece of steerer tube inside the stem, it
>>wouldn't be there after the somersault Hincapie made.
>>
>>-as
>
>
> I watched the OLN broadcast and did not see the footage that Victor
> talks about, but, that aside, what if the star nut (or expansion plug)
> failed as a result of the first crash?

So what if the star nut broke? The star nut isn't the primary retaining
system, and isn't really a retaining system at all, it's an adjustment
system.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

 

[[email protected]]

Greg Estep wrote:

>
> has a reference to this photograph:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=hincapie_trek/IMG_9944
>
> The stem pictured has a cutout through which the black stem is visible.
> There is no guarantee, however, that this is the bike George was riding
> when he crashed.
>
> --
> Greg Estep



Interesting observation - Greg points out the steerer that can be seen
throught the extension cut out appears black but the lower section of
the steerer in this pic:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=hincapie_trek/IMG_9942

looks to be maybe painted silver. Could be the paint stops somewhere in
the middle.

The fork looks like something I'd like to have for bad roads and
cyclocross riding. Hopefully this failure can be attributed to the
earlier crash and be available on the market for some good dirt play.

Can we be sure he was riding the bike shown in the apr 2006 photos? Who
knows.

 

[James Thomson]

<[email protected]> wrote:

> Interesting observation - Greg points out the steerer that can be
> seen throught the extension cut out appears black but the lower
> section of the steerer in this pic:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=hincapie_trek/IMG_9942

> looks to be maybe painted silver. Could be the paint stops
> somewhere in the middle.

That's not the steerer. That's the seatstay wishbone with its elastomer
shock.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=hincapie_trek/IMG_9939

James Thomson

 

[Helmut Springer]

[email protected] wrote:
> Interesting observation - Greg points out the steerer that can be
> seen throught the extension cut out appears black but the lower
> section of the steerer in this pic:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=hincapie_trek/IMG_9942

That picture shows the rear, not the front. See

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=hincapie_trek/IMG_9939


--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On 9 Apr 2006 17:27:31 -0700, "spin156" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Also, I would like to add my thanks to all of those who posted the
>results of the race before the US broadcast. I guess I'll know
>better next year.

Why should we be expected to find out if and when any US or elsewhere
broadcast is going to happen before we post about it? If you care so much
about being spoiled, avoid related forums and conversations between the
event and your viewing of the event. How hard is that?

Jasper