History of Dutch Cycling Paths

Discussion in 'The Bike Cafe' started by alienator, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Here's a pretty cool video on the history of Dutch cycling paths. It isn't the history I think most of us, at least in the US, would have imagined: I think there are a few things in the video that would apply to cycling in the US. One thing that certainly doesn't apply is the Dutch response to the oil crisis in the '70's. The US hasn't and likely won't for a long time, if ever, have any national will to develop and further expand alternative transportation. I think when the tap eventually runs dry, the US is going to be in one of the worst, if not the worst, conditions among first and some third world countries.
     
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  2. Dave Cutter

    Dave Cutter Active Member

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    It is a very nicely made video. Even if the history it recalls isn't exactly the one I remember. I recall much of the demolition actually happening years earlier in a little conflict with European Socialist (called WW2). Much of Europe experienced the same thing. I actually saw the paths mentioned... years before the video claims they were built. I would have to guess... there is more than a little propaganda hidden in that video.

    There are many wonderful things that can be said of cycling and bicycles. Historians will certainly recognize and remove the distortions and exaggerations popular today. I just hope the actual great history, isn't lost when the records are corrected.

    Your ideas about energy are interesting too. Do you work in the oil industry... or is that conjecture?
     
  3. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    It's no conjecture. The Saudis did a study and found that there is on the order of 50 years of oil left. Others put the number at 100. Either, simple physics and geology give some important facts:
    1. It takes a long time for biological matter to decay and transform into oil.
    2. The rate at which humanity uses oil is many orders of magnitude greater than the rate at which oil is formed.
    3. Oil extraction is already getting more challenging as humans have to go to greater lengths to reach the oil.
    4. There is no infinite supply of oil since an infinite supply would require infinite biological matter and infinite energy to form. That's simple physics.
    5. We only really discovered and started using oil about 100-150 years ago, and look how fast we've used what was available.
    No matter how you cut it we will run out of oil. The only thing that might prevent that is a massive global catastrophe that kills off the human race (planet killing asteroid, nuclear war,.......). The United States neither has the will nor is it smart enough to actually make preparations like developing alternative energy sources and weening ourselves off of petroleum. Oh, but we will raise a stink if the oil we feel we are entitled to is too expensive.
     
  4. Dave Cutter

    Dave Cutter Active Member

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    Very interesting! Do you have a link to that "study"? I'd love to read that. I know for a fact, in America we have active wells that have been producing since 1909. A friend on mine inherited some.

    Glad you have a good knowledge of physics! Maybe you can explain how a planet like Saturn's Moon, Titan has liquid hydrocarbon lakes. Yet never has had any form of life. That just doesn't seem possible by what you posted!

    I am not sure WHO the United States are. But within the borders of the USA resides 90% of all solar and wind energy collected on the entire planet Earth. Not bad for not "smart" ... huh.

    I take it you had believed the history reported in that video... and now I've hurt your feelings. Sorry! It wasn't my intent to tick you off. It's been my experience that you just can't believe everything you see on the Internet.
     
  5. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a link to the Saudi study, but it's likely Google will find it. Not all hydrocarbons are petroleum, and not all hydrocarbons require the decomposition of organic material. For more information, you'd have to ask a planetologist. As a fraction of energy used, solar and wind energy provide only a wee bit of our needs. The resources you have really don't matter much if you don't use them. I wasn't invested in the video, one way or another. I just thought it was interesting. At no point did I state or even suggest that the video was 100% accurate. I'm not responsible for what you assume. I don't know where in the hell you dredged up that whole "hurt feelings" bit. If you've got a point, you should make it instead of playing verbal games.
     
  6. Dave Cutter

    Dave Cutter Active Member

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    The rumor of that old secret hidden "Saudi doomsday study" goes back to the 60's... its a hoax.. and nothing more.

    So... I take it your expertise in physics... can't explain even your own statements? Sounds like my expertise in tax law!

    There was a time... (before my memory) when Americans used considerably more energy than the rest of the planets inhabitants. That isn't the case anymore. Americans aren't awful devil worshiping evil people. Americans are just run-of-the-mill evil people... just like everywhere else. I don't understand those people that think tomorrows solutions will come from yesterday technology. It won't. Don't fear the future! It happens everyday.

    No games here. Like I originally said: It is a very nicely made video...... more than a little propaganda.
     
  7. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    The physics explained why oil supply can't be infinite. Einstein defined the relationship between matter and energy: creating one requires the other. Infinite oil supplies would imply an infinite amount of potential energy. That is an impossible state. If you can't understand that, then it's too bad your science education was so poor. Don't bother putting words into my mouth as you've tried. Those are your words about Americans. Period. I don't fear the future. That's your incorrect assumption. Nor did I say that tomorrow's solutions come from yesterday's technology. Again, those are your words and your attempt to characterize incorrectly what I said. I will say tomorrow's solutions will need to be made up of more than tomorrow's technology. We have technology and ideas right now that can be used effectively. Sure, you're playing games aplenty. No matter the level of "propaganda" in the video, there are still things that can be learned from it. Oh, and a 2011 report by BP puts current known oil reserves in the world at a bit over 1 trillion barrels. They put world natural gas reserves at 127.5 trillion. Feel free to first calculated how long that will last at current usage and then calculate again figuring in the rate of change of use. Another useful exercise would be to then define the rate at which oil reserves are being discovered and how those discoveries compare to past discoveries in size. You could do the same with natural gas. You could then define the rate of discovery--barrels/year--starting from the past and ending at our current rate of discovery. From that you could determine whether that is an increasing function or a decreasing function. Hmmmmm.
     
  8. vspa

    vspa Active Member

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    so you still believe in Santa, yes petroleum will last forever, everything is ok, go and drive your 4 liter truck every day to work in traffic jams, maybe scientifics will convert rocks into oil soon, nice video,
     
  9. maydog

    maydog Well-Known Member

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    I always love a "Peak Oil" debate. Many of our economic systems rely on the dangerously foolish notion that an economy can and must grow without bounds. If the easy to get oil was truly far from depleted - the prices would be much more stable. Our hope is that the high cost makes other energy sources viable.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

    Extremely high gas prices wouldn't be all that bad - it may open up much of the existing infrastructure to alternative forms of transport. Anybody care to cycle on the expressway?
     
  10. Dave Cutter

    Dave Cutter Active Member

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    Believe in Santa? I've actually played Santa a couple of times. Human goodwill and generocity is real. You can believe it that!

    The more mankind explores and learns... the more we learn that energy is by far the least of mankinds problems. But most people can't wrap their heads around that. But oil from rocks?? Do you mean shale?
     
  11. Dave Cutter

    Dave Cutter Active Member

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    Looks like my comments are now being deleted. When you can't win with propaganda.... you just shut-up the opposition. Time to quit this thread...
     
  12. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree.
     
  13. JSWin

    JSWin Member

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    I've seen something like this. Some states have something like this. It would be great if they this in more places. Sometimes you have to really plan out which way you will go because the road isn't very generous for the bike.
     
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