Hit and Run

In ba.bicycles LioNiNoiL_a t_Ne t s c a pE_D 0 T_Ne T said:

Quoted message said:

Well, as is unfortunately typical of this group, the only
two responses addressing your concern about safety on
Bryant took the approach of "blame the cyclist" --
amazing that a cycling newsgroup could have such a bias!

Quoted message said:

It just demonstrates the widespread acceptance of the
"victim mentality" imprinted upon cyclists in the USA
(United States of Automobiles) by the car-driving public:
"it's your own damn fault that you're reviled and injured,
riding those toys in the street!"

Er no. I think the point is that defensive cycling (or
driving) is a good idea, and someone who is frequently
having close calls should consider whether they can do
anything to fix that. It is little consolation knowing that
you had the right of way if you end up in the hospital.

-- Dave

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 13:33:30 -0700, Terry Morse <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Someone else said:

Someone said:

Well, as is unfortunately typical of this group, the
only two responses addressing your concern about safety
on Bryant took the approach of "blame the cyclist" --
amazing that a cycling newsgroup could have such a
bias!

It just demonstrates the widespread acceptance of the
"victim mentality" imprinted upon cyclists in the USA
(United States of Automobiles) by the car-driving public:
"it's your own damn fault that you're reviled and
injured, riding those toys in the street!"

Baloney. If a cyclist continues to get himself in near miss
situations with law breaking motorists on the same road,
there's something wrong with the cyclist. Some cars roll
through stop signs, others don't yield right of way, still
others have "cyclist blindless". Those are the facts. Learn
to anticipate and manage these risks, or get off the road.

Note the mindset here: 'cyclist[s]' do this but it's
'car[s]' which do that.

Another textbook case; the humour was most likely
unintentional.

Quoted message said:

Well, as is unfortunately typical of this group, the only
two responses addressing your concern about safety on
Bryant took the approach of "blame the cyclist" -- amazing
that a cycling newsgroup could have such a bias!

Whether your assessment about the replies in this thread is
fair, the affliction you describe (is quite common amongst
cyclists. You will sometimes hear people refer to the
'Cyclist inferiority superstition'.

"Mike Latondresse" <mikelat@no_spamshaw.ca> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Zoot Katz <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Last week on Georgia Street I was presented the perfect
opportunity to take out a brat in a SAAB. She right
hooked me but

Quoted message said:

Zoot, your self control and restraint is Zen like. Didn't
you even kick the rear panel on passing?

The question is why is Zoot riding out on Georgia Street in
the first place? That is no place for a bike to be.

If he wants to start training properly he must make the
effort to get himself out to the good cycling roads.

In article <Bzbwc.675383$Ig.227952@pd7tw2no>,

Fabrizio Mazzoleni said:

The question is why is Zoot riding out on Georgia Street
in the first place?

Headed to North Van or West Van or Horseshoe Bay?

Quoted message said:

That is no place for a bike to be.

Someone's gotta do it. Might as well not be you.

Quoted message said:

If he wants to start training properly he must make the
effort to get himself out to the good cycling roads.

Like Clarke Rd (the uphill side) between Port Moody &
Coquitlam or wherever it is. Where Ryan hangs out. Y'know
where I mean.

I rode up to Weekender Park etc, up in Deep Cove earlier
this week. The Dollarton Hwy is a fairly good cycling road.
Except maybe a little bit for the return trip, getting onto
the bridge.

North Shore chicks are generally hotter than south-of-the-
Fraser-River chicks. Although Surrey/Abbotsford girls do
have their charms, too. Aw, what the heck. I luv 'em all.
But North Shore chicks are richer.

cheers, Tom

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Someone said:

Quoted message said:

Baloney. If a cyclist continues to get himself in near
miss situations with law breaking motorists on the same
road, there's something wrong with the cyclist.

See what I mean?

Just keep whining and complaining about how hard cyclists
have it. I'll keep riding.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

[quote="Chris B."]

Terry Morse said:

Baloney. If a cyclist continues to get himself in near
miss situations with law breaking motorists on the same
road, there's something wrong with the cyclist. Some cars
roll through stop signs, others don't yield right of way,
still others have "cyclist blindless". Those are the
facts. Learn to anticipate and manage these risks, or get
off the road.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Er no. I think the point is that defensive cycling (or
driving) is a good idea, and someone who is frequently
having close calls should consider whether they can do
anything to fix that.

That's pretty much it. Along with a suggestion that it's
generally simpler for the road-user to adapt to the road,
than adapting the road to the road-user.

Quoted message said:

It is little consolation knowing that you had the right of
way if you end up in the hospital.

Well, let's not think about getting clobbered.
Instead, let's think about problematic (for cyclists)
roads & streets.

Some riders complain about the poor ridability of certain
roads. Fine. If they're still gonna use 'em, might as well
adapt to them and figure out how to tactically deal with
their nuances, rather than just griping about them (or
rather, the drivers who also use those roads.)

So, this Bryant Street is rife with aggressive drivers
who lacadaisically pull into it from cross streets, and
cut cyclists off at intersections (reminds me of the
eastern stretch of Vancouver's King Edward Ave.) Okay,
I'll take that as a given. So, foreknowledge is
forearmament. The complainers should use that
accordingly, and deal with it. But griping about Bryant
Street on UseNet ain't gonna fix anything.

If anything, griping about road/street unridability might be
one of the first symptoms of Cycling Inferiority Complex.

Defending such gripes might be one of the first symptoms
of Advocacy. Next thing ya know, segregated bike lanes
are demanded.

Maybe Bryant St could use segregated bike lanes. I dunno.
But it sounds like it needs some heads-up riding.

So the complainers should just ride it heads-up. And/or get
the civic officials to fix/enforce it. That's all.

cheers, Tom

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Terry Morse said:

Note the mindset? Textbook case?

Yeah, sounds like politics is rearing its ugly head again.

Quoted message said:

For crying' out loud, just ride your bike.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

But I'm getting this sense, from the political vehemence of
some of the posts, that there's something going on; that
there's a localized movement to have cycling facilities of
some sort put on this Bryant Street.

I might well be wrong.

But if I'm not, we may have poked at a political
hornets' nest.

cheers, Tom

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Terry Morse said:

Ben Pfaff said:

Even when I'm on my mountain bike, I'm always really
careful along Bryant Street, because idiot drivers love
to cut me off at intersections. At least once a week, one
will blow past a stop sign, without stopping, and pull
into the intersection in front of me.

The same thing happens to me regularly. You just have to
watch out for them. Motorists don't seem to be tuned into
cyclists going 20 on a residential street. Screaming
madely and braking hard seems to get their attention.

From your other postings, you seem to think that this is
just a fact of life. I am somewhat sympathetic--except that
this is a designated and marked "Bike Boulevard". Does this
designation mean anything at all? Frankly I often feel safer
on faster roads with wide shoulders/bike lanes. For example,
I rarely (never?) have the same trouble at intersections on
Foothill, Central (both 45 mph), or Page Mill (35 mph but
everyone speeds like mad) that I do on Bryant (25 mph). If
they took me where I needed to go I'd use them for commuting
instead of Bryant.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ben Pfaff said:

From your other postings, you seem to think that this is
just a fact of life.

It is. Traffic ain't perfect. Or at least, the people in
it aren't.

Quoted message said:

I am somewhat sympathetic--except that this is a
designated and marked "Bike Boulevard".

... and drivers dare intrude upon it, because they
can?? Horrors!!

Quoted message said:

Does this designation
mean anything at all?

Not, apparently, to some of the drivers on it.

So have your City traffic-calm it or something, or have them
put-in bike lanes. Whatever.

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Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Er no. I think the point is that defensive cycling (or
driving) is a good idea, and someone who is frequently
having close calls should consider whether they can do
anything to fix that.

That's pretty much it. Along with a suggestion that it's
generally simpler for the road-user to adapt to the road,
than adapting the road to the road-user.

Yup. Critical Massers say "Bicycles ARE traffic, get used to
it!" Well, cars are traffic too. Get used to it. No one
completely follows the rules of the road. "Taxi stops" at
stop signs are normal (though illegal) everywhere. Don't let
yourself get complacent, it's a jungle out there. Be aware
and deal with what's coming up in front of you. That's how I
see it anyway. Bernie

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bernie said:

Don't let yourself get complacent, it's a jungle out
there. Be aware and deal with what's coming up in
front of you.

And beside you.

Actually, I feel a sort of sympathy with anyone who wants
this Bryant Street to be really treated as the cycling route
it apparently is designated as.

When I first got wind that our Windsor Street was going to
be a bike route, I suggested that Dumfries St would have
been a better choice. Now I find out Dumfries is also being
considered, but the proposed treatments of the Dumfries/King
Edward/Kingsway intersection fall far short of safe &
convenient usability. Sight lines are especially a big
problem there.

There needs to be a traffic light that gets people on
Dumfries safely and directly across both King Ed and
Kingsway.

As if such inconveniencing of drivers on King Edward &
Kingsway would ever happen!

BTW, Windsor St needs a push-button light at King Edward,
same as Heather St.

I don't really know what this Bryant Street is like.
All I know is, people are complaining about it to the
wrong people.

I hope they get it fixed properly.

cheers, Tom

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Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Bernie <bmcilvan@mouse-

potato.com said:

Don't let yourself get complacent, it's a jungle out
there. Be aware and deal with what's coming up in
front of you.

And beside you.

Oh yes, keep "full circle" awareness. Truck drivers are all
taught this around day one of the course.

Quoted message said:

Actually, I feel a sort of sympathy with anyone who wants
this Bryant Street to be really treated as the cycling
route it apparently is designated as.

When I first got wind that our Windsor Street was going to
be a bike route, I suggested that Dumfries St would have
been a better choice. Now I find out Dumfries is also being
considered, but the proposed treatments of the
Dumfries/King Edward/Kingsway intersection fall far short
of safe & convenient usability. Sight lines are especially
a big problem there.

There needs to be a traffic light that gets people on
Dumfries safely and directly across both King Ed and
Kingsway.

As if such inconveniencing of drivers on King Edward &
Kingsway would ever happen!

BTW, Windsor St needs a push-button light at King Edward,
same as Heather St.

I don't really know what this Bryant Street is like.
All I know is, people are complaining about it to the
wrong people.

We all preach to the choir here. If there are real issues to
be addressed they have to go to the city planning and
engineering.

Quoted message said:

I hope they get it fixed properly.

Sounds like the pavement needs fixing. The drivers are an
eternal 'get used to it' hazard, imo.

Quoted message said:

cheers, Tom

Tom Keats said:

BTW, Windsor St needs a push-button light at King Edward,
same as Heather St.

Just out of curiosity - do you really mean a push-button to
trigger the light for cyclists?? I've never seen one.
Pedestrians, yes. Cyclists, no.

How would you have the button in reach of a cyclist, without
having it be a collision hazard?

What if a cyclist intended to make a left turn? Would he
push the button on the right side of the road, then drag the
bike over toward the left?

Curious.

--
--------------------+ Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove
rodent and vegetable dot com, replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Tom Keats said:

If anything, griping about road/street unridability might
be one of the first symptoms of Cycling Inferiority
Complex.

Defending such gripes might be one of the first symptoms
of Advocacy. Next thing ya know, segregated bike lanes are
demanded.

Maybe Bryant St could use segregated bike lanes. I dunno.
But it sounds like it needs some heads-up riding.

So the complainers should just ride it heads-up. And/or
get the civic officials to fix/enforce it. That's all.

Thanks for stating what I was trying to, but with much
more tact.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

Tom Keats said:

But I'm getting this sense, from the political vehemence
of some of the posts, that there's something going on;
that there's a localized movement to have cycling
facilities of some sort put on this Bryant Street.

I don't think so. Bryant St. is probably untouchable, as it
was the first "bike boulevards" in the country (one of
things Palo Alto likes to brag about). It's a wide
residential street with barriers every several blocks that
only bikes can pass through, so there's very little car
traffic. There is almost no striping, not even a center
stripe. There are only two stop signs, and those are four-
way. All the cross streets have stop signs (and this is
where you have to watch out for cars).

Ellen Fletcher, a local bicycle advocate, worked to get
Bryant St. made into a bike boulevard. Recently, they named
it after her:

svbcbikes.orgellen fletcher.phpOpen ↗

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

(Tom Keats) said:

So have your City traffic-calm it or something, or have
them put-in bike lanes. Whatever.

I don't see how bike lanes or "traffic calming" would help
the problem that I'm pointing out: drivers at cross streets
don't stop at their stop signs and don't look both ways
before crossing.
--
"Q: How does a hacker fix a function which doesn't work for
all of the elements in its domain?
A: He changes the domain." --Thorfinn

Does anybody just get off the bike and walk across the busy
intersections? When in doubt, act like a pedestrian. Works
for me, but I am clipless and not trying to best my last
time, just ride instead of drive. Bill

Ben Pfaff said:

(Tom Keats) said:

So have your City traffic-calm it or something, or have
them put-in bike lanes. Whatever.

I don't see how bike lanes or "traffic calming" would help
the problem that I'm pointing out: drivers at cross
streets don't stop at their stop signs and don't look both
ways before crossing.

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:
opera.comm2Open ↗

Bill said:

Does anybody just get off the bike and walk across the busy
intersections? When in doubt, act like a pedestrian. Works
for me, but I am clipless and not trying to best my last
time, just ride instead of drive. Bill

Ben Pfaff said:

(Tom Keats) said:

So have your City traffic-calm it or something, or have
them put-in bike lanes. Whatever.

I don't see how bike lanes or "traffic calming" would
help the problem that I'm pointing out: drivers at cross
streets don't stop at their stop signs and don't look
both ways before crossing.

For 25 cents why no rent a pedestrian, and have them
walk point?

-Badger