Hit from behind by bike - whose fault is it?

[Corvus Corvax]

[email protected] (R15757) wrote
>
> If you pass another cyclist out on the road, you have just given that cyclist license to draft if
> he/she can.

Whatever. As long as you're comfortable with most people in the world thinking "what a clueless
dink" after knowing you for ten seconds, who am I to tell you what to do?

CC

 

[Buck]

"R15757" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Bruce wrote: << Considering the strong reaction here against being drafted without permission,
> perhaps you should reconsider
your
> actions."

Who is "Bruce"?

> These strong reactions against being drafted are the hallmark of
inexperienced
> cyclists and anal-retentive personalities. For many of us, if we are to honestly evaluate our
> feelings on this, the discomfort about being drafted arises from feelings of inadequacy--"I
> thought I was really fast today,
yet
> this guy I can't shake..."--not from issues of responsibility or any of
the
> other **** mentioned here. Such feelings are born from ignorance about the dangers and benefits of
> drafting. Next time someone's on your wheel, give
this
> a shot: stop pedaling, pull to the side, say "hi" to the drafter, and let
him
> pull through. Then get on his wheel and feel the draft. Enjoy yourself, go faster.

No need for me to do this with people I don't know. I have a go-fast group I ride with on weekends
where we regularly draft where it is appropriate. Dodging city traffic is not the appropriate place
to have your wheel a couple of feet or less from mine. I have enough to worry about without you on
my ass too.

> "There was also a few who I enjoyed riding with because they asked before tailgating, then kept up
> a good conversation on the way home."
>
> I get drafted at least as often as i draft. Nobody has ever asked my permission, in 20 years of
> cycling. Think about that. It's to be expected,
not
> a call to road rage. You shouldn't be so easily flustered. And how do you
keep
> up a conversation while drafting? Not possible.

I don't draft people I don't know and I most ceratinly don't do it in traffic. It is only expected
by you because you don't bother to get permission to draft other people. As for having conversations
with other cyclists, you are right, we don't draft.

> "If you were to appear on my butt, I'd definitely do something about it.
The
> first time might be a simple action to encourage you to go elsewhere.
After
> that, it might get unpleasant for both of us.
>
> -Buck"
> >>
>
> Wow guy. So much venom. If drafting isn't your cup of tea, just wave the
guy
> around, or (gasp) ask him with your mouth and words to please stop, it
makes me
> uncomfortable. No need to get all passive-agressive.
>
> Anyway, I have a feeling that you aren't the type of rider I would draft anyway, so moot point.

I have gotten rid of drafters in a variety of ways, sometimes words, sometimes other means. It
depends on whether or not they are repeat offenders. And you are right again, you wouldn't draft me
because I wouldn't let you on my commute. You have no business there on the streets I have to ride.
On the weekend ride in the country with people I know, it's another story.

-Buck

 

[Robin Hubert]

I get equally offended when someone gets too close to my ass-end while driving automobile, for the
same reasons people are mentioning here for cycling. I feel the same way. It's rude and unsafe.
Someone here will explain to me how this is a poor analogy, I'm sure.

--
Robin Hubert <[email protected]

 

[Buck]

"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> That's about it, isn't it? If tires kiss, it's generally only the drafter who goes down. The lead
> rider might not even notice. Tough cheese for the wheel sucker. Of course if the lead rider /does/
> happen to notice, he might feel compelled to stop and deal with the inconvenience of rescuing the
> fallen bike off the road before it gets run over.

The problem is that it is "generally" only the drafter that goes down. When I was relatively new
to the paceline, we had a rank newbie join us one weekend. I watched him kiss the rear wheel of
the lead rider and take them both out. Everyone else managed to dodge the fray, but the leader hit
the pavement hard and the newbie landed in the ditch. I learned the value of knowing your fellow
riders that day.

And people wonder why some of us don't want uninvited drafters!

-Buck

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:54:08 GMT, "Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> from EarthLink Inc. --
http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:

>I get equally offended when someone gets too close to my ass-end while driving automobile, for the
>same reasons people are mentioning here for cycling. I feel the same way. It's rude and unsafe.
>Someone here will explain to me how this is a poor analogy, I'm sure.

Don't mind me. I'm just following up to your post to draft you for a while. I'll take a pull later
if you want.

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace First, I'm going to give you all the ANSWERS
to today's test ... So just plug in your SONY WALKMANS and relax!!
11:54:11 PM 2 June 2003

 

[Eric S. Sande]

>What really irks me about leapfrog is "cyclists" that are going slower than I am, and then they run
>red lights to get ahead again. And then I get stuck behind them for a while when traffic is
>congested and there's no good opportunity for passing again.

The really irksome part is when they pass you on the right. Why do they think you are leaving that
space there, for some freaking curb hugging ice cream truck driver to sit in?

Not. On the other hand, I'm pretty charitable on the road. I don't usually take offense or yell at
the bleeding sods, they are all ready factored in as road hazards.

I don't really care what they do. Draft, not draft, it makes no real difference to me. I'm more
concerned with arriving safely at my destination than worrying about what might take place.

I have more substantial things to deal with on the street, such as jaywalking pedestrians,
clueless tour buses from God knows what alternate reality, suicidal bicycle messengers, and
taxicabs from Hell.

Not to mention zoned out commuters driving on autopilot with cell phones stuck in their ears,
potholed streets, dead animals and the ever present emergency vehicles and motorcades.

Tornados, terrorists, ice, snow, fog, rain, parking outdoors and bicycle maintenance.

Helicopters and homeless people. Jet fighters over the city and a desperate guy trying to jack me
up. "Kill me or go away, you'd be doing me a favor."

But the moment of truth is when you hold that perfect line through chaos and everything is fine. You
execute a perfect maneuver in traffic and you don't break any laws, but you do it so well and with
such precision that you think about it later and all you have is a dim kinetic memory--but you know
it was a moment of truth.

Sorry to go on so long. But the basic problem with this thread is that none of you saw the messenger
drafting a Honda down H Street yesterday. You didn't see how he was hanging off that bumper so he
couldn't be surprised by a sudden stop or turn, and when the Honda had cleared the intersection he
made a perfect turn at speed onto the cross street.

Poetry in motion, I wish I was that good--and that convinced that I couldn't put the bike down
in traffic.

I don't normally lean over at 45 degrees at 30 mph, but he did.

So, what's my point. You never know what you're going to get in cycling, but there's always going to
be that moment where events just conspire to push you above and beyond, don't fight it.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________

 

[Dennis P. Harri]

On 02 Jun 2003 20:31:15 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, [email protected]
(R15757) wrote:

> These strong reactions against being drafted are the hallmark of inexperienced cyclists and
> anal-retentive personalities. For many of us, if we are to honestly evaluate our feelings on this,
> the discomfort about being drafted arises from feelings of inadequacy--"I thought I was really
> fast today, yet this guy I can't shake..."--not from issues of responsibility or any of the other
> **** mentioned here. Such feelings are born from ignorance about the dangers and benefits of
> drafting. Next time someone's on your wheel, give this a shot: stop pedaling, pull to the side,
> say "hi" to the drafter, and let him pull through. Then get on his wheel and feel the draft. Enjoy
> yourself, go faster.

what a bunch of ********. assholes like you NEVER understand that some folks, myself included PREFER
TO RIDE ALONE. it has NOTHING to do with inexperience, inadequacy, or anal retentiveness, and
everything to do with politeness and giving others their space. my rides are my private space, and i
want to be left alone.

i've spent my time riding pacelines, thankyouverymuch, and i prefer to not do that any more. and
yes, assholes like you do get faked into the ditch.

 

[Dennis P. Harri]

On 02 Jun 2003 20:57:01 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, [email protected]
(R15757) wrote:

> I would never draft some random dork at 20 mph in heavy traffic.

uhh, you're the random dork.

 

[Dennis P. Harri]

On 02 Jun 2003 20:41:45 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, [email protected]
(R15757) wrote:

> If you pass another cyclist out on the road, you have just given that cyclist license to draft if
> he/she can.

no, i have not, and there is absolutely no rule, law, or anything else that says so, other than your
tiny imagination.

you really ARE an idiot.

 

[Robin Hubert]

"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]/\/\> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:54:08 GMT, "Robin Hubert" <[email protected]>
from
> EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:
>
> >I get equally offended when someone gets too close to my ass-end while driving automobile, for
> >the same reasons people are mentioning here for cycling. I feel the same way. It's rude and
> >unsafe. Someone here will explain to me how this is a poor analogy, I'm sure.
>
> Don't mind me. I'm just following up to your post to draft you for a
while. I'll
> take a pull later if you want.
>

Phhhhhhhhhfffffffft ... cough, cough. I had my pull. Your turn.

--
Robin Hubert <[email protected]

 

[Buck]

"R15757" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> << Dodging city traffic is not the appropriate place to have your wheel a couple of feet or less
> from mine >>
>
> Of course not, who said anything about that.

You did, moron. Unless your commute is all bike paths, you have to be out there in city traffic.
Mixing it up with automobiles is not the place for drafting, period. Go back and read some of the
history on this newsgroup and you will see most of the posters ride in traffic on their commute.

> << . "And you are right again, you wouldn't draft me because I wouldn't
let you
> on my commute. You have no business there on the streets I have to ride.
On the
> weekend ride in the country with people I know, it's another story."
>
> Oh yeah Buck? What mean streets are those? Please enlighten us.

Oh yeah Robert? It doesn't matter what "mean streets" I ride upon. If you are sharing a street with
morning and evening traffic, around school zones where hundreds of cars are dodging in and out to
drop off or pick up kids, near driveways and parking lots where traffic is always trying to turn
with you in the way, around lots of controlled intersections where I'm going to stop and you may
not, around cars who think we are still going too slow and want to pass us on narrow roads with
traffic flowing the other direction, near sidewalks where sidewalk-riders may decide the sidewalk is
too rough and slide over to the street unexpectedly, and where there are always obstacles like
potholes and broken glass in the street. I have seen all of these things in every city I ride in.
Whether a small college town or a city of 4 million, it's all the same. Drafting is reserved for the
quiet country rides on weekends where there just isn't much traffic to notice.

If you still think that it's ok to draft uninvited, you will never see otherwise and will always be
considered an ass for doing so. I'm not going to convince you what you are doing is wrong and you
most certainly aren't going to convince me that it is right. So there is no point in going any
further with this conversation.

-Buck

 

[Terry Morse]

Robin Hubert wrote:

> I get equally offended when someone gets too close to my ass-end while driving automobile, for the
> same reasons people are mentioning here for cycling.

One our our club's group rides was stopped by a traffic cop, because the group was pace-lining. The
cop told them they were following each other too closely, which is illegal.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:07:36 GMT, "Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> from EarthLink Inc. --
http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:

>"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]/\/\> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:54:08 GMT, "Robin Hubert" <[email protected]>
>from
>> EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:
>>
>> >I get equally offended when someone gets too close to my ass-end while driving automobile, for
>> >the same reasons people are mentioning here for cycling. I feel the same way. It's rude and
>> >unsafe. Someone here will explain to me how this is a poor analogy, I'm sure.
>>
>> Don't mind me. I'm just following up to your post to draft you for a
>while. I'll
>> take a pull later if you want.
>>
>
>Phhhhhhhhhfffffffft ... cough, cough. I had my pull. Your turn.

OK, I'm only going as far as ther next corner, though. There's a donut shop!

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace Barbie says, Take quaaludes in gin and go to
a disco right away! But Ken says, WOO-WOO!! No credit at "Mr. Liquor"!!
1:03:25 PM 3 June 2003

 

[B A R R Y B U R]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:54:08 GMT, "Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I get equally offended when someone gets too close to my ass-end while driving automobile, for the
>same reasons people are mentioning here for cycling.

But on the bike, you can fart!

Barry

 

[Mark Hickey]

[email protected] (R15757) wrote:

>I suggest you ditch the driver's ed and try some biker's ed. Bicycles aren't cars no matter what
>John Forester says. They are much better than cars. They come to a stop much quicker

Don't ever get in the situation where you have to find out that is NOT true. A car CAN stop much
quicker than a bike, since the bike is limited to only about 0.6g deceleration due to the high
center of gravity that will send the rider over the bars in a more violent stop. A car can generate
much more deceleration unless its brakes are in poor shape.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Archer]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> I have been in this situation dozens of times. You are simply wrong to suggest that a 3,000-lb.
> car can stop quicker than a bike going the same speed. It's true that a violent panic stop will
> want to flip the bicycle, but an athletic cyclist can deal with it, i.e. stay on the bike or, if
> not, land on his/her feet.

If you have a bicycle with a weight distribution which will let it skid the front wheel if you lock
it rather than flip you over it (recumbent?), then you _might_ be able to stop as fast as a car.
Otherwise you are dreaming.

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

 

[Mark Lee]

"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]>
>
> Don't ever get in the situation where you have to find out that is NOT true. A car CAN stop much
> quicker than a bike, since the bike is limited to only about 0.6g deceleration due to the high
> center of gravity that will send the rider over the bars in a more violent stop. A car can
> generate much more deceleration unless its brakes are in poor shape.
>

Mark, save your intelligent posts for people with minds. This thread has degenerated into a
rednecks-on-bikes out to assault fellow cyclists thread. Mark Lee

 

[Zeldabee]

[email protected] (Corvus Corvax) wrote:
> zeldabee <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > Just do what I do. Slow down, really gradually, until they realize how slow you're going, and
> > pass you.
>
> Yeah, that's what I do. There are those hard cases, the ones that are going fifteen miles an hour
> before you pass them, then clip along at nineteen as long as they're drafting you. Then you slow
> down, really gradually, and they finally get the hint and pass you ... and they start going
> fifteen miles an hour again. I've found that the best way to deal with these guys (and they're
> _always_ male) is to hang back for a while, and then blow past them at max speed, so that they
> don't have time to fall into your slipstream -- they can't, or won't, go nineteen or twenty
> without somebody to leech off of.

Once I stop at a red light, that generally takes care of them. My "max speed" is probably slower
than their cruising speed, anyway. Or, it was the last time I was on a bike...at about 3 months
pregnant, when I discovered that I was able to average about 9 mph, and had an absolute threshold of
I think 7 miles. (And then I slept all the next day.)

> The worst are the ones who are as fast, or faster, than you, and hang back waiting for somebody to
> "race". You can't drop them, and they _won't_ drop you. The only two alternatives are to take
> another route or beat them senseless with your frame pump.

Oh, yeah, that's right...you're in NYC too.

What used to crack me up when I was commuting regularly by bike was the group of messenger guys who
would hang out at the bottom of the Manhattan bridge, and sometimes they'd jump up and draft me
going up the bridge, and maybe crack a joke or two as they passed me at the top.

--
z e l d a b e e @ p a n i x . c o m http://NewsReader.Com/

 

[Buck]

"R15757" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:20030603165819.01078.00000702@mb-

> I wouldn't dare draft you on your "mean streets," Buck.

Glad to hear you have some sense.

> But let's say we're out in the country. You and your "go-fast" club come cruising by me as I am on
> mile 70 of a tough 80-miler. I'm cooked. Is it
ok if
> I just jump on your guys' wheel there a bit?

It's always best to ask first.

> I bet if I passed you out there, you wouldn't be too proud to try to jump
on my
> wheel. And if you asked my permission, I'd **** my pants.

Then you better start carrying toilet paper with you. From the sounds of this group, it's likely
that someone will ask your permission.

I find it funny that you discuss drafting in context of commuting, but now that everyone has told
you how rude it is, you change your tune and come up with a different scenario. Maybe you are
learning something after 20 years of being a jerk.

-Buck

 

[Luigi De Guzman]

Terry Morse <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Robin Hubert wrote:
>
> > I get equally offended when someone gets too close to my ass-end while driving automobile, for
> > the same reasons people are mentioning here for cycling.
>
> One our our club's group rides was stopped by a traffic cop, because the group was pace-lining.
> The cop told them they were following each other too closely, which is illegal.

h'mm, technically that's right; as vehicles you're required to maintain a safe following distance...

for all my vehicular cycling thinking I'd never ever thought of it like that. but then, I'm almost
always riding alone, or with a handful of other cyclists in traffic anyway. And, being very slow and
clumsy compared to the messengers, drafting isn't something I do much.

The few times I have done it in an urban setting, it was as much because I couldn't overtake the guy
and was riding that pace anyway. Don't know about absolute aerodynamic benefits, but it sure picked
up my pace, mentally speaking. I made a mental note never to do it again in the city--while it's
exherating (especially on deserted Sunday evenings in the City, where nobody lives) to get all
Walter Mitty and pretend you're a two-man break headed to a finish with the roaring crowds, it's
scary to think that the herd mentality overrides side-checks at interesections, and even the odd
traffic light....!

-Luigi