Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Daniel J. Stern" <[email protected]> writes:
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Tom Keats wrote:
>
>> > They can ram through busy intersections against the light, causing
>> > multiple collisions as drivers attempt to avoid hitting them.
>> > Different venue, same effect.
>
>> I've heard this point raised in the course of discussion before, but
>> I've never seen nor heard of actual incidents where this has occurred.
>
> 'cause the cyclist, having caused mayhem, simply decides he's a
> pedestrian, makes a 90-degree turn and cruises away from the scene. Did
> anyone get his license plate? Oh that's right...he DOESN'T HAVE TO HAVE
> ONE!

There'd still be a bunch of drivers both directly involved and
simply looking on, in these alleged, cyclist-caused, multi-car
pile-ups.

So, where are they? Let's hear from these drivers (if they
exist.) Or better yet -- their insurance reps.

Incidentally, I've never seen a cyclist "ram" through a /busy/
intersection against the light. But then, I've never seen anyone
jump through between boxcars of a fast moving train, either.

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[Bob Newman]

It is not overzealous. It has been taken to court. That is the way the law
reads.

--
Bob

"John David Galt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bob Newman wrote:
> > Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched on. We here in
> > Florida have had police crack downs in the past giving cyclists tickets
for
> > not stopping, as you say "cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws
as
> > anyone else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are
required to
> > do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can still get you a ticket IF
you
> > fail to put one foot fully on the ground. Comments?
>
> Sounds like the usual over-enforcement directed at auto drivers, where the
> cop says you "didn't stop" if you didn't wait 5 seconds before proceeding.
> The law needs to recognize that when your car rocks back on its springs,
> you've stopped.
>

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Daniel T." <[email protected]> writes:

> I saw something close. I was making a left turn (with the green light)
> when a bicyclist ran the light just as I was turning. Needless to say
> the bicyclist was going too fast for anyone to really react to his
> presence. He ended up hitting an SUV (note the bicyclist hit the
> vehicle, not the other way around.) The bike was totaled and the rider
> found himself flat on his back. Amazingly, the bicyclist wasn't hurt, of
> course the driver of the SUV wasn't hurt either, how could he be? Hell,
> I didn't even see any scratches on the side of his vehicle...

Those things do happen, but that's nothing like the scenario
Mr. Stern describes, of drivers bashing their cars into each
other in a valiant effort to avoid hitting a red light-running
cyclist. I expect in the incident you describe, the SUV driver
didn't do much by way of collision avoidance manoeuvers; maybe
the driver didn't even know the cyclist was there until he hit
his SUV. But that's admittedly all speculation on my part.

I think a more plausible hypothetical situation would be where a
startled driver panics, hits the binders and gets rear-ended.
But that would be the fault of the driver behind him, doing the
rear-ending.

> I'm not going to claim that what Mr. Stern says never happens, but I
> expect that when something like that happens but its a car rather than a
> bike that is "ramming" through a busy intersection against the light, a
> hell of a lot more damage occurs.

True. I have seen some sickening aftermath of where (car driving)
street racers, and subjects in police pursuits, have tried
unsuccessfuly to run red lights. With stuff like that going on,
the authorities have far more important things to deal with than
going after law-flouting cyclists.

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[Daniel T.]

In article <dLKyc.49$I%[email protected]>,
"Paul" <UPS_SUCKS!@slower_traffic_get_to_the_right.com> wrote:

>> I still say he's just ****** because he sees bikes doing what he can't
>> do in his car, but he isn't willing to ride a bike in order to have the
>> privileges that bikers have. Of course, that doesn't stop him from
>> wanting to take those privileges away from the bicyclists.
>
>Since when do bicyclists have the privlege of disregarding traffic laws that
>are there for the safety of everyone?

Well, if they didn't we wouldn't be having this discussion. The fact is,
bicyclists don't have to obey the same traffic laws as cars, otherwise
they would be getting pulled over and fined.

 

[Daniel T.]

"Paul" <UPS_SUCKS!@slower_traffic_get_to_the_right.com> wrote:

>"Daniel T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>
>> I'm new to this car vs bicycle debate, yet is sounds very familliar to
>> the debate over in rec.boats; there it's motor-boat vs sailboat.
>> Different vehicles, but the same facts. How much property damage can a
>> bicycle do compaired to a car? Can DUI bicyclests ram through the wall
>> of the local McDonald's killing and injuring happy meal eaters?
>
>A DUI bicyclist could pull many types of idiotic maneuvers that could cause a
>car
>operator to lose control of his vehicle and plow into a McDonalds.

And a DUI driver could pull many types of idiotic maneuvers that could
cause a bicyclest to lose control and plow into a McDonalds... Oops
actually that's not the case is it, the bicyclest *can't* plow into a
McDonalds.

Your ignoring the central fact; a bicyclist simply *cannot* do the kind
of damage that an auto driver can do. Because of this central fact,
there really isn't as much need to ensure that bicyclests are skilled
compared to auto drivers.

 

[Arif Khokar]

Daniel T. wrote:

> The fact is,
> bicyclists don't have to obey the same traffic laws as cars,

That's fiction, not fact.

> otherwise
> they would be getting pulled over and fined.

Which has nothing to do with it. Just because a law isn't enforced
doesn't mean that the law doesn't exist. Cyclists are supposed to
follow the rules of the road just like a driver does.

 

[Daniel J. Stern]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Daniel T. wrote:

> The fact is, bicyclists don't have to obey the same traffic laws as
> cars

Sorry, that's just plain incorrect. Check your local laws.

> otherwise they would be getting pulled over and fined.

Well, then, I guess marijuana must be legal, then, because I smelled/saw
someone smoking it at a party a few weeks ago, and he didn't get picked up
by the cops. I guess speeding must be legal, too, 'cause most people
disregard the speed limit on the freeways around here. Lack of enforcement
does NOT imply legality. To think otherwise is stunningly simpleminded.

-Stern

 

[Daniel T.]

In article <[email protected]>,
Arif Khokar <[email protected]> wrote:

>Daniel T. wrote:
>
>> The fact is,
>> bicyclists don't have to obey the same traffic laws as cars,
>
>That's fiction, not fact.
>
>> otherwise
>> they would be getting pulled over and fined.
>
>Which has nothing to do with it. Just because a law isn't enforced
>doesn't mean that the law doesn't exist. Cyclists are supposed to
>follow the rules of the road just like a driver does.

There is a law in my city that says people are not allowed to shower
naked. Laws that are never enforced aren't laws.

 

[Timothy J. Lee]

In article <[email protected]>,
Daniel J. Stern <[email protected]> wrote:
> There's no law requiring
>registration of bicycles or carrying an operator's license -- or, for that
>matter, any form of identification at all -- while riding one. Should be,
>but isn't. So what if the cop stops someone who hasn't got ID? What,
>exactly, can the cop do?

Presumably the same thing the cop can do when arresting someone for
jaywalking or other illegal activity, and that person doesn't have ID.

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[Arif Khokar]

Daniel T. wrote:

> There is a law in my city that says people are not allowed to shower
> naked.

Cite?

> Laws that are never enforced aren't laws.

They're still laws. Cyclists are road users and should obey all
applicable traffic laws. It makes it easier for all those involved
because any cyclist/motorist interaction will become as predictable as
any motorist/motorist action (violations of traffic law notwithstanding).

A cyclist obeying the law will *not* be the one who I end up hitting
because he appeared seemingly out of nowhere when he actually came off
the sidewalk to my right to make a left turn. The cyclist obeying the
law will be in the lane ahead of me taking a left turn like I do in a
car where I can see him.

 

[James S. Prine]

>Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after they ran a red
>light? Hmmmm??
>
>Unless the driver was a politician or fellow cop, I doubt it.

Doubt it all you want, but it happens all the time.
James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

 

[Timothy J. Lee]

In article <[email protected]>,
Daniel T. <[email protected]> wrote:
>Well, if they didn't we wouldn't be having this discussion. The fact is,
>bicyclists don't have to obey the same traffic laws as cars, otherwise
>they would be getting pulled over and fined.

Most rules of the road apply to bicyclists as if they were vehicle
drivers (in North America) (a very few laws only apply to motor vehicle
drivers, but that doesn't include many of the common ones, like those
involving obeying traffic lights and stop signs). That disobeying
traffic laws (either on a bicycle or in a car) results in a low chance
of getting caught and ticketed doesn't change that.

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[Chris B.]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:49:09 -0400, "Paul"
<UPS_SUCKS!@slower_traffic_get_to_the_right.com> wrote:

>
>"Daniel T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news[email protected]...
>
>> I'm not going to claim that what Mr. Stern says never happens, but I
>> expect that when something like that happens but its a car rather than a
>> bike that is "ramming" through a busy intersection against the light, a
>> hell of a lot more damage occurs.
>
>What Stern is seeing (and what lots of other drivers see) is cyclists disregarding
>the laws that they are supposed to be obeying. The difference is that the car driver
>gets a ticket, fine and higher insurance when caught. The cyclist just gets away with
>it.

Not always, though. On my bicycle last year here in Toronto, I
received a ticket for failing to stop at a red (it wasn't an
especially blatant offence either, really - I turned right on the red
without stopping). It is legal to turn right on the red here,
provided that you stop first and then yield to pedestrians and cross
traffic.

Hopefully Mr. Stern (who appears to suffer from a very severe case of
C.I.S.) will sleep a great deal better knowing that I paid the ticket
(about $190 CDN). Not being a poor, victimized motorist, I didn't
think to come whining to usenet about it at the time, though.

 

[Chris B.]

On 12 Jun 2004 21:39:04 GMT, [email protected] (Hunrobe) wrote:

[...]

>Second, in comparison to motor vehicle traffic there really
>aren't that many cyclists on the road. It's rather like, how many crashes has
>anyone heard of that were caused by UPS delivery trucks? Not that many I'd
>wager and it's *not* because all UPS drivers are careful conscientious drivers
>that always obey the traffic laws.

Precisely. Even when the police are on a blitz of ticketing
law-breaking cyclists (as they are here in Toronto right now), only a
very tiny percentage of Toronto motorists will actually witness 'one
of those pain in the ass cyclists finally getting ticketed'.

 

[Peter]

"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Daniel J. Stern" <[email protected]> writes:
> > On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Tom Keats wrote:
> >
Much snipped:
>
> Incidentally, I've never seen a cyclist "ram" through a /busy/
> intersection against the light. But then, I've never seen anyone
> jump through between boxcars of a fast moving train, either.
>

While I was stopped (on my bicycle) waiting for the left turn light to
appear young woman (20's) blew past me on the left (the light facing us was
red) and made the left turn crossing EIGHT lanes of cross-traffic as she did
so. She is extremely lucky that she wasn't hit. In a previous life she must
have been a successful Kamikaze pilot.

If she had been hit - traffic on the road she turned onto is 80+ km/hr -
what would have been said about the driver of the vehicle? I see such stunts
as these every day in my 25km comute (50kms round trip) and can only wonder
that there are not more cyclist vehicle collisions.

I push a little harder and as I pass the miscreant shout out "You just
risked your life to save a few seconds - Incredible!" and then pull away
from them.

 

[tk]

> AMEN to that. It would be espacially nice (for me anyways) if they would
do this to
> these idiot kids who have no clue of and/or disregard the rules of the
road.

Not familiar with the 4th amendment are we?

 

[Timothy J. Lee]

In article <[email protected]>,
Chris B. <[email protected]> wrote:
>Not always, though. On my bicycle last year here in Toronto, I
>received a ticket for failing to stop at a red (it wasn't an
>especially blatant offence either, really - I turned right on the red
>without stopping).

Although it is an extremely common violation, by both motorists and
bicyclists.

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[nooobody]

"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article
<[email protected]>,
> "Daniel J. Stern" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > "Compared". Quite a bit, depending on how you define "cause". When
a
> > bicyclist touches-off a multi-vehicle incident, the total tab in
injuries
> > and damages can be quite large.
> >
> >> Can DUI bicyclests ram through the wall of the local McDonald's
killing
> >> and injuring happy meal eaters?
> >
> > They can ram through busy intersections against the light, causing
> > multiple collisions as drivers attempt to avoid hitting them.
Different
> > venue, same effect.
>
> I've heard this point raised in the course of discussion before,
> but I've never seen nor heard of actual incidents where this
> has occurred. Has anyone? And if so, how often does it happen?

I've heard of worse.A few years ago, a pedestrian was killed by a
bicyclist who ran a red. The incident occurred on the street that
Daniel Stern, the original poster, observed the bicyclist being
stopped for running a red. It's not very common, but it does happen.

 

[Brent P]

In article <[email protected]>, The Lindbergh Baby wrote:

> Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after they ran a red
> light? Hmmmm??

Yes. I've seen cops not even pull people over who ran the red right in
front of them.

 

[Brent P]

In article <[email protected]>, Bob Newman wrote:
> Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched on. We here in
> Florida have had police crack downs in the past giving cyclists tickets for
> not stopping, as you say "cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as
> anyone else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are required to
> do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can still get you a ticket IF you
> fail to put one foot fully on the ground. Comments?

I've read of these assinine crackdowns many times. A bicyclist does
a track stand or simply rolls at 1 inch per hour to prevent falling
and the cops ticket for not doing a complete stop. I've rarely heard
of motorists being so ticketed, but for bicyclists it seems to be
a characteristic of every 'crackdown'.