Hope survives!



R

Rick Warner

Guest
"Steven M. Scharf" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<5xc6c.27193$%[email protected]>...
> otherwise? The factors are really the inflated fear of
> abductions, the general decline in the quality of
> drivers, and both parents working and the kid going to
> after school care.
>

Bing, bing, bing!!!! We have a winner! Yep. It is not that
kids are not riding their bikes to school, it is that a
large number of kids are not allowed to go to school except
with parental escort. And the parents are much more willing
to walk their kids (if close) or drive their kids to school
than to bike themselves. One two lane road I could use in
the mornings is impossible to ride on because it is blocked
with cars and SUV's dropping kids off at school, even though
most kids live within a half-mile or so of that school.
Another school I do pass 3-4 mornings a week has a constant
parade of parents walking, driving, or (rare) riding along
with their kids to the school. Extremely rare to see a child
travelling unattended to that school. And this is in a
'safe' affluent community! When I grew up and went to
school, circa a half-century ago, parents never escorted
their kids to school; I could count on one hand the number
of times my parents dropped me off at school, and that was
only after some appointment or other event to which they had
to transport me. There has been a shift, a shift towards
fear and parents are driven by the fear that their child
will be abducted, molested, hit by a car, etc., and feel
they must be the constant protector.

- rick
 
R

Rick Warner

Guest
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> > ... So how did helmets ever become any sort of
> > discussion point in the USA?...
>
> There was a pressing need for a topic that would produce
> long and annoying discussion on Usenet cycling groups. ;)

Naw, just some folks with an axe to grind and willing to use
any topic to grind the axe.

"Q: What Bottom Bracket should I use on my new ABC frame?"

"Reply: I would use a SuperHex13, but since my club will not
let me ride with them unless I have a helmet on a WhackyDoo
is probably a better choice."

;-)

- rick
 
P

Peter Rosenfed

Guest
"AustinMN" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Rick Onanian wrote:
> > There is hope yet...I saw no less than 6 bikes parked at
> > a school today. Kids are riding.
>
> My son once attended a school with 5 or 6 bikes in a rack
> outside. All of them were clearly abandoned, because the
> chains were rusted, tires flat, etc.
>
> He didn't ride because we were so close it was faster to
> walk than get out the bike, ride it 75 feet, and then
> lock it up.
>
> Austin

My small town has a middle school/ high school complex of
over 1100 strudents. The entire town is about 2 miles
across. All roads in town have a 25 mph speed
limit. Over the 20-some years I've been paying attention,
I've watched the number of bike racks at the school
be reduced from slots for about 150 bikes to slots
for 12 bikes due to lack of use. Typically, I'll see
4 or 5 bikes locked up in back.

A lot of students still walk, but an increasing number seem
to drive or be driven. It's hard to say what has caused the
reduction in bicycling. I doubt it is fear of crime as
there are still a lot of pedestrians. It's hard to imagine
that it is fear of traffic given the roads here. The
decline did seem to real get going soon after a mandatory
helmet law was enacted, but the law hasn't been enforced
for about 10 years.

I'd buy the argument that the town is too small for
bicycling except for the decline I've noticed.

-Peter R. NJ
 
R

Rick Onanian

Guest
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:56:37 -0500, Luigi de Guzman
<[email protected]> wrote:
>is the time an oldtimer will chime in that they walked five
>miles in three foot snow to go to a one-room schoolhouse.

..."With no shoes" ..."because we hadn't yet invented
FEET!" ..."we had to walk on our ankles" ..."there was no
pavement under the snow, just wood with sharp nails
sticking up out of it" ..."each one of us had to pull a six
foot plow on the way to school so our parents would have
clean roads to get to work"
--
Rick Onanian
 
T

The Real Bev

Guest
Chalo wrote:
>
> [email protected] (Xbaycb) wrote:
>
> > If it weren't for my helmets, I wouldn't be alive today
> > getting ready for a century ride next month.
>
> If I had a paper dollar for every time I've heard a
> similar claim, I could use them to fashion a huge bale of
> dollars to wear on my head. I could then assert, without
> any verifiable evidence, that my big-wad-o-dollars hat had
> saved me from certain gruesome death!

I don't know about certain death, but judging from the
skin scraped off other body parts, the metal scraped off
my motorcycle and the deep abrasion on my helmet, I'd have
to say it saved me from losing at least an ear. Is that
good enough?

I wear a bicycle helmet, but so far it hasn't done anything
for me except give me a funny hairdo.

--
Cheers, Bev
===========================================================
"You should be glad that bridge fell down -- I was planning
to build thirteen more to the same design."
-- Attributed to I.K. Brunel, addressing the
Directors of the Great Western Railway
 
T

The Real Bev

Guest
Rick Onanian wrote:
>
> On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:56:37 -0500, Luigi de Guzman
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >is the time an oldtimer will chime in that they walked
> >five miles in three foot snow to go to a one-room
> >schoolhouse.
>
> ..."With no shoes" ..."because we hadn't yet invented
> FEET!" ..."we had to walk on our ankles" ..."there was no
> pavement under the snow, just wood with sharp nails
> sticking up out of it" ..."each one of us had to pull a
> six foot plow on the way to school so our parents would
> have clean roads to get to work"

At least you HAD parents...

--
Cheers, Bev
===========================================================
"You should be glad that bridge fell down -- I was planning
to build thirteen more to the same design."
-- Attributed to I.K. Brunel, addressing the
Directors of the Great Western Railway
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"The Real Bev" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > [email protected] (Xbaycb) wrote:
> >
> > > If it weren't for my helmets, I wouldn't be alive
> > > today getting ready
for a
> > > century ride next month.
> >
> > If I had a paper dollar for every time I've heard a
> > similar claim, I could use them to fashion a huge bale
> > of dollars to wear on my head. I could then assert,
> > without any verifiable evidence, that my big-wad-o-
> > dollars hat had saved me from certain gruesome death!
>
> I don't know about certain death, but judging from the
> skin scraped off other body parts, the metal scraped off
> my motorcycle and the deep abrasion on my helmet, I'd have
> to say it saved me from losing at least an ear. Is that
> good enough?
>
> I wear a bicycle helmet, but so far it hasn't done
> anything for me except give me a funny hairdo.

Chalo makes the point well though - if we were to take a
poll among club cyclists who wear helmets you'd find that
approximately 10,000 lives were saved EVERY YEAR. Since the
bicyclist's deaths from head injuries number only about 500
a year you have to wonder what we ever did without helmets.
 
P

Peter Keller

Guest
On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:25:25 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> Chalo wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Xbaycb) wrote:
>>
>> > If it weren't for my helmets, I wouldn't be alive today
>> > getting ready for a century ride next month.
>>
>> If I had a paper dollar for every time I've heard a
>> similar claim, I could use them to fashion a huge bale of
>> dollars to wear on my head. I could then assert, without
>> any verifiable evidence, that my big-wad-o-dollars hat
>> had saved me from certain gruesome death!
>
> I don't know about certain death, but judging from the
> skin scraped off other body parts, the metal scraped off
> my motorcycle and the deep abrasion on my helmet, I'd have
> to say it saved me from losing at least an ear. Is that
> good enough?
>
> I wear a bicycle helmet, but so far it hasn't done
> anything for me except give me a funny hairdo.

Way to go Bev! Wear your helmet ! I am not stopping you. I
have no truck with people who force others not to wear
helmets. Likewise no truck with people who force others to
wear helmets. Peter

--
This transmission is certified free of viruses as no
Microsoft products were used in its preparation or
propagation.
 
K

Kevan Smith

Guest
On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 01:50:38 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> from
EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:

>Chalo makes the point well though - if we were to take a
>poll among club cyclists who wear helmets you'd find that
>approximately 10,000 lives were saved EVERY YEAR. Since the
>bicyclist's deaths from head injuries number only about 500
>a year you have to wonder what we ever did without helmets.

You are being sarcastic, right?

--
[email protected]
A very small object - Its center.
25
 
J

Just Zis Guy

Guest
On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:25:25 -0800, The Real Bev
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>I don't know about certain death, but judging from the
>skin scraped off other body parts, the metal scraped off
>my motorcycle and the deep abrasion on my helmet, I'd have
>to say it saved me from losing at least an ear. Is that
>good enough?

Not really, because it doesn't address the question of
whether the crash would have happened if you had not been
wearing a helmet. In the UK the relative fatality rate of
motircyclists rose when the law was introduced. In the US,
the states which have repealed helmet laws have experienced
relative improvements in motorcyclist fatalities. I think
it's risk compensation.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University
 
P

Peter Keller

Guest
On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:30:29 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:25:25 -0800, The Real Bev
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> <[email protected]>:
>
>>I don't know about certain death, but judging from the
>>skin scraped off other body parts, the metal scraped off
>>my motorcycle and the deep abrasion on my helmet, I'd have
>>to say it saved me from losing at least an ear. Is that
>>good enough?
>
> Not really, because it doesn't address the question of
> whether the crash would have happened if you had not been
> wearing a helmet. In the UK the relative fatality rate of
> motircyclists rose when the law was introduced. In the US,
> the states which have repealed helmet laws have
> experienced relative improvements in motorcyclist
> fatalities. I think it's risk compensation.

Try and tell that to our Land Transport "Safety" Authority!
Because of their pigheadedness in not believing good
research New Zealand is alone in the world in having a country-
wide all ages all-enveloping MHL!

--
This transmission is certified free of viruses as no
Microsoft products were used in its preparation or
propagation.
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 01:50:38 GMT, "Tom Kunich"
> <[email protected]> from EarthLink Inc. --
> http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:
>
> >Chalo makes the point well though - if we were to take a
> >poll among club cyclists who wear helmets you'd find that
> >approximately 10,000 lives were saved EVERY YEAR. Since
> >the bicyclist's deaths from head injuries number only
> >about 500 a year you have to wonder what we ever did
> >without
helmets.
>
> You are being sarcastic, right?

I don't know if you'd call it sarcasm. But surely you have
to understand that everyone that has ever fallen off of a
bike will tell you that their life was saved by their
helmet. This should give you an idea of just how far off
people's ideas of injury and death are.
 
T

Terry Morse

Guest
Tom Kunich wrote:

> But surely you have to understand that everyone that has
> ever fallen off of a bike will tell you that their life
> was saved by their helmet.

I've fallen off my bike, and my helmet did not save my life.
So you can never write the above statement again.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
 
K

Kevan Smith

Guest
On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 02:02:25 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> from
EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:

>"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 01:50:38 GMT, "Tom Kunich"
>> <[email protected]> from EarthLink Inc. --
>> http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:
>>
>> >Chalo makes the point well though - if we were to take a
>> >poll among club cyclists who wear helmets you'd find
>> >that approximately 10,000 lives were saved EVERY YEAR.
>> >Since the bicyclist's deaths from head injuries number
>> >only about 500 a year you have to wonder what we ever
>> >did without
>helmets.
>>
>> You are being sarcastic, right?
>
>I don't know if you'd call it sarcasm. But surely you have
>to understand that everyone that has ever fallen off of a
>bike will tell you that their life was saved by their
>helmet. This should give you an idea of just how far off
>people's ideas of injury and death are.

I've fallen with and without helmets. The little foam hat
did nothing but sit on my head.

--
[email protected]
A very small object - Its center.
25
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Terry Morse wrote:

> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
>>But surely you have to understand that everyone that has
>>ever fallen off of a bike will tell you that their life
>>was saved by their helmet.
>
>
> I've fallen off my bike, and my helmet did not save my
> life. So you can never write the above statement again.

How do you post to rec.bicycles.misc after you are dead? ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>I don't know if you'd call it sarcasm. But surely you have
>>to understand that everyone that has ever fallen off of a
>>bike will tell you that their life was saved by their
>>helmet. This should give you an idea of just how far off
>>people's ideas of injury and death are.
>
>I've fallen with and without helmets. The little foam hat
>did nothing but sit on my head.

They *can* do a bit more than that. For a totally anecdotal
example, see: http://www.habcycles.com/bikecrash.html

With the helmet on, I still had a bad enough concussion to
experience significant memory issues for months. Without it?
I'll never know, but I can't imagine that it wouldn't have
been considerably worse.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of
the $695 ti frame
 
C

Claire Petersky

Guest
"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I've fallen with and without helmets. The little foam hat
> did nothing but
sit on
> my head.

The one time I fell such that the helmet needed to come into
play -- i.e., there was an impact to my head -- it was
remarkable. I remember the sharp pain as my shoulder and
knee hit the pavement, and the shirt ripped open and the
flesh ripped under that. But my head just made a gentle
>thump< and was fine. This was probably the worst spill of
my bicycling life, and happened Summer 1988.

I have no strong opinions about helmets, and am always taken
aback at how much emotion they generate. I can't imagine why
anyone cares.

Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato
and .net for .com Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm Email me
re: the new Tiferet CD (http://www.tiferet.net) See the
books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
 
K

Kevan Smith

Guest
On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 08:06:15 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> from
Habanero Cycles wrote:

>Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>I don't know if you'd call it sarcasm. But surely you
>>>have to understand that everyone that has ever fallen off
>>>of a bike will tell you that their life was saved by
>>>their helmet. This should give you an idea of just how
>>>far off people's ideas of injury and death are.
>>
>>I've fallen with and without helmets. The little foam hat
>>did nothing but sit on my head.
>
>They *can* do a bit more than that. For a totally anecdotal
>example, see: http://www.habcycles.com/bikecrash.html
>
>With the helmet on, I still had a bad enough concussion to
>experience significant memory issues for months. Without
>it? I'll never know, but I can't imagine that it wouldn't
>have been considerably worse.

The key word there being imagine. As you said, you'll never
really know.

Study idea:

Rig thousands of helmets up with some sort of force meters
with digital logs, so that if one of them is involved in an
accident, then the force of the blow is recorded and stored.

Give the helmets to cyclists willing to wear and maintain
them and report in every so often.

If anyone crashes, collect data: force and duration, injury,
severity of injury,

This debate has gone well beyond the bounds set by
epidemiological studies. It's time to take a practical
science approach.

--
[email protected]
A very small object - Its center.
25
 
K

Kevan Smith

Guest
On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:30:42 GMT, "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]>
from Comcast Online wrote:

>I have no strong opinions about helmets, and am always
>taken aback at how much emotion they generate. I can't
>imagine why anyone cares.

The argument generates strong emotions for the primary
reason, I think, that helmet supporters often say something
like "you are stupid if you don't wear a helmet." No one
likes to be called stupid; them's fightin' words. Over time,
even when a helmet advocate doesn't say that, the thought is
entrenched from others who have.

--
[email protected]
A very small object - Its center.
25
 
J

Just Zis Guy

Guest
On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 11:44:47 -0600, Kevan Smith
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>The argument generates strong emotions for the primary
>reason, I think, that helmet supporters often say something
>like "you are stupid if you don't wear a helmet."

For my part it generates strong emotions because the helmet
supporters appear solely to have read pro-helmet studies,
whereas those who oppose compulsion and are more sceptical
about helmets overall tend to have read a much wider range
of reports.

Although to be fair the fact that helmeteers have accused me
of being in favour of children ending up as vegetables
doesn't exactly endear the pro lobby to me.

Still and all, I have spent a long time reading the original
sources for a lot of the arguments. In many cases I doubt if
they would have been published if they had not been pushing
a line which was already supported by the prejudices of the
editors of the journals in question. Some of the analysis is
so weak it's amazing it passed peer-review, and there are
examples of proof-by-assertion.

I am completely convinced that the benefits of helmets
are grossly overstated by their advocates. This opinion
is supported by the use, in the UK at least, of
statistics which are demonstrably false by the major
helmet promotion group.

I questioned BHSI about their continued use of the original
Thompson, Rivara and Thompson figures, despite the existence
of the 1996 study which gives much lower figures. They said:

"We are aware of the second study, but by the time it
appeared the 85% figure was so deeply ingrained in the
injury prevention community that a change will not be
helpful."

Which sounds suspiciously like "don't confuse people with
the facts" to me.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University