Hope survives!



K

Kevan Smith

Guest
On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:00:40 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> from
Habanero Cycles wrote:

>Spring, hell... it's SUMMER all the sudden in Arizona.
>Sigh... (record high temperatures three days in a row).

Lucky you.

I'm one of those people who perfrom much better in really
hot weather. I love it when the temp is in the 90s and I can
really hammer. Spring is fine, but give me HOT!

--
[email protected]
A very small object - Its center.
25
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"David Kerber" <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] potato.com says...
> > On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 08:14:54 -0700, Mark Hickey
> > <[email protected]>
from
> > Habanero Cycles wrote:
> >
> > >It's obvious the helmet "absorbed" a lot of the impact,
> > >hence my assumption that it would have been worse
> > >without
> > >it.
> >
> > Well, it's not. You have no idea, in fact, how much
> > impact the helmet
"absorbed"
> > either total or as a percentage of total impact force.
>
> If the helmet has a huge dent (crevice) in it the shape of
> the edge of a truck mirror, but is still intact, you know
> it absorbed a lot of energy.

Since I can make the same sort of indentation with my thumb
and hardly any pressure at all I would probably take issue
with that statement.

I took apart a helmet and did a bunch of tests on the
material. Nothing that used any real measuring instruments
but enough that I could see what they
did.

My opinion?

A helmet is probably pretty good at spreading a blow out so
avoid point contacts. This is good.

A helmet is probably moderately good at absorbing a medium
strength direct impact. This is probably worthless because
this range is only a very small amount of the blows received
in all accidents. If you wear a helmet for this that's your
call because there IS the chance that you could get one of
these loadings.

The trouble is that most fatalities on bicycles and most
serious injuries are caused by collisions with automobiles
and the energies in such accidents are many times greater
than a helmet could possibly absorb.

And helmets only work if you have a direct blow. If you
have an angular blow it can cause rotational injuries and
these are far worse than injuried caused by straight-on
direct blows.

You also have to understand that helmets are faked from
the start.

For instance, the calculations in which it is determined how
much speed the helmet can withstand and maintain a
deceleration below 300 gees are calculated using ONLY the
weight of the average head. Most of us realize that there is
a body attached to the head and that when you fall very
often there is at least some of the weight of the body
behind the head.

For another thing, although helmets are ALL scaled for 300
gees maximum acceleration, most women's skulls can only
withstand less than 250 gees. And children far less, as low
as 180 gees. This makes the lining of a helmet essentially
concrete to a woman or child. This isn't necessarily bad
since children generally don't fall very far and so the
smooth rounded interior generally prevents injuries by
spreading the contact area.

Now here's the worst part - modern helmets with their
jillion vents use even harder material so that point
loadings are increased dramatically on a real head though
this isn't measured since the testing is done with a
magnesium head model. These helmets will pass the tests but
are only fractionally as effective as the older helmet. And
the harder material is far more prone to breaking and
fractionating into pieces in the open spaces of the vents
thereby reducing the effectiveness still further.

The sum of all this is that a helmet simply isn't capable
of "saving a life" though they are fine for what they are
really capable of - which is reducing the severity of
minor injuries.

I could actually go on for a long time and get pretty
technical but there's no sense in it. Helmets have their
place in racing, riding off-road and for anyone that
isn't going to take more chances BECAUSE they feel
protected by a helmet.

But these are hardly reasons for the sort of response that
comes from the helmeteers - "Where's your helmet?"
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Curtis L. Russell wrote:

> ...
> - MHL advocates pull out now-discredited studies (although
> the actual numbers have a chance of being higher as well
> as lower, the studies ARE discredited) to argue that
> only loons ride without helmets....

I have never seen any waterfowl using h*lm*ts, so this is
not limited just to loons.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:00:40 -0700, Mark Hickey
><[email protected]> from Habanero Cycles wrote:
>
>>Spring, hell... it's SUMMER all the sudden in Arizona.
>>Sigh... (record high temperatures three days in a row).
>
>Lucky you.
>
>I'm one of those people who perfrom much better in really
>hot weather. I love it when the temp is in the 90s and I
>can really hammer. Spring is fine, but give me HOT!

Awww, "90's" isn't "hot" by Arizona standards. It is for
March, but in July through September, we DREAM of the
90's... ;-)

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of
the $695 ti frame
 
H

H. M. Leary

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

snip

> Which is probably the main reason helmets are not made
> from jello.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home
> of the $695 ti frame

Mark!

You are on to something here!

Jello helmets would be very handy on long rides as an
energy source.

Does Jello come in Habanero flavor?

HAND

--
"Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness"

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:00:40 -0700, Mark Hickey
><[email protected]> from Habanero Cycles wrote:
>
>>Tell you what - get a nasty old helmet, put it on a large
>>rock (something that is fairly similar to my head, after
>>all...) and try to whack it hard enough to crush the
>>styrofoam in a 1-1.5" (2.5-3.5cm) area across the entire
>>top of the helmet AND split in over a dozen places around
>>the circumference (dramatically enough to pull the plastic
>>cover apart in several places).
>
>Nor a problem at all. I've seen a helmet crack and break
>from being hit by a Nerf football. What's your point?

If you've seen a Nerf football leave a helmet looking like
mine, I'd suggest not playing a friendly game of catch with
the guy who threw
it.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of
the $695 ti frame
 
C

Curtis L . Russ

Guest
On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 15:50:40 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Which is probably the main reason helmets are not made
>from jello.

Well, if they could find those army cooks that made Jello
reinforced with peas and lettuce, they could. That stuff was
inpenetrable.

Just to show it wasn't an accident, they did even worse
stuff to the coffee.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
"H. M. Leary" <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>snip
>
>> Which is probably the main reason helmets are not made
>> from jello.
>
>Mark!
>
>You are on to something here!
>
>Jello helmets would be very handy on long rides as an
>energy source.

And they'd provide a nice "dampening" (sic) effect. Kind of
like a gel saddle for your head. Probably more effective
than carbon seatstays.

>Does Jello come in Habanero flavor?

Now YOU are on to something!!!

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of
the $695 ti frame
 
K

Kevan Smith

Guest
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 06:23:22 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> from
Habanero Cycles wrote:

>Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:00:40 -0700, Mark Hickey
>><[email protected]> from Habanero Cycles wrote:
>>
>>>Spring, hell... it's SUMMER all the sudden in Arizona.
>>>Sigh... (record high temperatures three days in a row).
>>
>>Lucky you.
>>
>>I'm one of those people who perfrom much better in really
>>hot weather. I love it when the temp is in the 90s and I
>>can really hammer. Spring is fine, but give me HOT!
>
>Awww, "90's" isn't "hot" by Arizona standards. It is for
>March, but in July through September, we DREAM of the
>90's... ;-)

Yes, but ... it's a dry heat. :)

I've been in Phoenix during those 105+ days. It's not easy,
but it compares to the 95+ with high humidity we get here. I
kind of like your dry heat a bit better, because sweat
evaporates and you don't get as covered with road grime.

--
[email protected]
A very small object - Its center.
25
 
K

Kevan Smith

Guest
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 06:24:50 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> from
Habanero Cycles wrote:

>Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:00:40 -0700, Mark Hickey
>><[email protected]> from Habanero Cycles wrote:
>>
>>>Tell you what - get a nasty old helmet, put it on a large
>>>rock (something that is fairly similar to my head, after
>>>all...) and try to whack it hard enough to crush the
>>>styrofoam in a 1-1.5" (2.5-3.5cm) area across the entire
>>>top of the helmet AND split in over a dozen places around
>>>the circumference (dramatically enough to pull the
>>>plastic cover apart in several places).
>>
>>Nor a problem at all. I've seen a helmet crack and break
>>from being hit by a Nerf football. What's your point?
>
>If you've seen a Nerf football leave a helmet looking like
>mine, I'd suggest not playing a friendly game of catch with
>the guy who threw
>it.

A girl threw it during some mid-break horseplay during a
public radio pledge drive. It caromed off a wall and hit
my Trek helmet, which dented and cracked. It's not as bad
as your helmet, but, if I had been wearing it at the time,
do you think I could say it had saved my life from the
Nerf impact?

Speaking of Public Radio and pledge drives ... it's time.
Call now to support your local station. It's individual
contributors just like you who make possible all the great
programming you hear!

And have I got a special premium JUST FOR YOU. For a pledge
of $25, I will wear my helmet for three months, NO
EXCEPTIONS. For $50, I won't! I bet you can't empty your
wallet fast enough. :)

I think your station is KJZZ, which is nationally known for
jazz and excellent liberal socialist propaganda shows.

--
[email protected]
A very small object - Its center.
25
 
K

Kevan Smith

Guest
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 08:44:32 -0500, Curtis L. Russell
<[email protected]> from The Maryland Russells wrote:

>Just to show it wasn't an accident, they did even worse
>stuff to the coffee.

Hey, the coffee in the Army, they say, is mighty fine!

--
[email protected]
A very small object - Its center.
25
 
S

S O R N I

Guest
Kevan Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 08:06:15 -0700, Mark Hickey
> <[email protected]> from Habanero Cycles wrote:
>
>> Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've fallen with and without helmets. The little foam
>>> hat did nothing but sit on my head.
>>
>> They *can* do a bit more than that. For a totally
>> anecdotal example, see:
>> http://www.habcycles.com/bikecrash.html
>>
>> With the helmet on, I still had a bad enough concussion
>> to experience significant memory issues for months.
>> Without it? I'll never know, but I can't imagine that it
>> wouldn't have been considerably worse.
>
> The key word there being imagine. As you said, you'll
> never really know.
>
> Study idea:
>
> Rig thousands of helmets up with some sort of force
> meters with digital logs, so that if one of them is
> involved in an accident, then the force of the blow is
> recorded and stored.
>
> Give the helmets to cyclists willing to wear and maintain
> them and report in every so often.
>
> If anyone crashes, collect data: force and duration,
> injury, severity

>
> This debate has gone well beyond the bounds set by
> epidemiological studies. It's time to take a practical
> science approach.

Or, you can look at the pics Mark posted and conclude that
his helmet took quite a massive blow, and be happy that it
wasn't his skull. I'm sure HE
is.

Bill "don't need no steenkin' science for that" S.
 
K

Kevan Smith

Guest
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:36:56 GMT, "S o r n i" <[email protected]> from
RoadRunner - West wrote:

>Or, you can look at the pics Mark posted and conclude that
>his helmet took quite a massive blow, and be happy that it
>wasn't his skull. I'm sure HE
>is.

Well, considering how much he's ripped into me on several
occaissions ....

Heh.

Of course I'm glad he wasn't seriously hurt. That shouydl go
without saying.

>
>Bill "don't need no steenkin' science for that" S.

No, you can plainly see that a human head and a foam hat are
two completely different things.

--
[email protected]
A very small object - Its center.
25
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

>>Awww, "90's" isn't "hot" by Arizona standards. It is for
>>March, but in July through September, we DREAM of the
>>90's... ;-)
>
>Yes, but ... it's a dry heat. :)
>
>I've been in Phoenix during those 105+ days. It's not easy,
>but it compares to the 95+ with high humidity we get here.
>I kind of like your dry heat a bit better, because sweat
>evaporates and you don't get as covered with road grime.

I compare those 105-110 degree days in Arizona with the
humid 90 degree days in Florida. It's almost spooky how you
can get off a bike at 110 and be DRY. In Florida, I
invariably looked like I just stepped out of the shower. But
in AZ, you don't ride anywhere in the summer without a LOT
of water (I drain a 100oz Camelbak in a 45 minute ride, and
end up thirsty).

BTW, for those of you who are calibrated in metric...

90F = 32C 110F = 43C

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of
the $695 ti frame