Horst on suspension: Old School or New?

[Doug Taylor]

[email protected] (JD) wrote:

>Now go train for your next race, Doug.

My next race is on the road, so I suppose that won't mess up any trails ;-)

Before that, however, I will spend most of Saturday with a chainsaw and a crew of 20 volunteers
cleaning deadfalls and blow downs and trying to reclaim a park trail system which was devastated
over the winter.

Now go train for your next sermon, JD.

--dt

 

[Spider]

[email protected] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Doug Taylor <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > [email protected] (JD) wrote:
> >
> > >> So make sure you're picking your battle against the right crowd, JD.
> > >
> > >I don't see it that way because either group jacks up public lands in the name of mountain
> > >biking. Both are criminal in my eyes and the reason for that is because I would like to see
> > >mountain biking survive, not get shut down by land managers responding to an envirowacko-fueled
> > >public voice. That's also why barneys, corner cutters, and irresponsible people on mountain
> > >bikes are the enemy of anyone who is truly a mountain biker. If you truly love the
> > >sport/lifestyle, you will protect it from those who may harm it.
> >
> > In your words, no ****.
> >
> > Your mistake is to lump racers with "barneys, corner cutters, and irresponsible people." X-C
> > races are licensed and sanctioned events on whatever land they are staged; no poaching involved.
> > Blame the organizers, not the riders. Neither you nor I know "all racers," but it is a sure bet
> > the that majority are more inclined to respect the land on which they ride than the people you
> > denigrate.
> >
> > Or maybe not.
>
> Why don't you come out to Behind The Rocks with me after the 24 Hours of Moab? I'll show you cut
> corners, off-trail riding through crypto and a lot of garbage left all over the trail from goo
> wrappers to "mojos". Ask Lard Knight why he doesn't (or in Moab's case CAN'T) restore the trails
> he promotes jacking up on public lands every time he holds an "event". Most trails are not made to
> handle a thundering desperate herd and when the herd comes, it leaves a giant mess, all at the
> expense of the land. I blame the organizers AND those who participate because without the herd
> mentality participants, the promoters have nothing.
>
> > Get real JD. This is a big, big planet, chock full of idiots and assholes. Ain't nothing you can
> > do except set and live the right example, and otherwise STFU because preaching, *****ing and
> > moaning only makes things worse. And nothing you can do about the fact the ya gotta share the
> > place, like it or not. I don't like YOU breathing "MY" air and shitting on "MY" earth anymore
> > than the converse.
>
> I don't care what you think about my opinion. This is an open forum and I am allowed to write my
> opinion down. I think racing huge races on public land is an atrocity to the trails and those who
> use them.
>
> > As for me, I'm a shaved leg roadie as well as off-roadie, and this Saturday will be heading out
> > to a local County Park, extensively damaged by a freak ice storm this spring, with a crew of
> > volunteers to do what we can to restore the trail system. You're welcome to join us.
>
> No thanks, I just got back from a maintenance ride, which included once again shutting down a
> few lameo barney freerider wannabe piece of **** lines. The war of attrition will be won by
> those who are truly dedicated and are backed in their actions by the land manager. Angry Man had
> a confrontation with some of them last Saturday and let them know if they persist in messing up
> the area and threatening access for legitimate users (which they are), names will be forwarded
> to the proper authorities and they will soon be appearing in Federal Court, explaining to a
> Magistrate why they are so stupid. I may just have to sit in court with a huge grin on my mug
> when that day comes.

In the desert Southwest, going off-line has a much different impact than going off-line in the Great
NorthWet. If I go off the trail in crypto, my mark may well last for hundreds of years. If I go
off-trail in the woods around here, nobody will ever notice, and if I do leave a mark, it'll be gone
in a season or two. Now, if EVERYBODY follows my mark, then there will be damage that will take
years to heal. But not decades or centuries.

I can understand why land managers in your area are uptight about Barney-style ****. Which is why I
understand that if you live in a MTB "Mecca", you have to preach long and hard, even to those of us
who haven't yet dipped our knobbies into sweet Fruita 1track.

Around these parts, it's multi-user conflict that gets the trails closed. Hikers who get ****** off
at the Dewbies go and holler at the land manager (a timber company where I ride most) and trails are
marked "No Bicycles". Hardly anyone talks here about off-line riding, but the discussion really hits
on being polite to hikers. Really polite - as if the hikers owned the trails.

But what happens is that the Dewbies buy a trail guide at the LBS, and then go out and fly around
the trails like *they* own them - because they are stupid, or don't know any better, or because they
are just assholes. My youngest and I ran into that last year, almost literally. These guys could
have killed my kid at the speed they were going, and if I hadn't had my wits about me, somebody
would have been seriously injured.

It's the freeride/DH "image" that's part of the problem - the "x-treem"ness of it all that really is
the problem. In the desert, cheater and poacher lines are going to be visible forever. Around here,
people might get hurt or worse. Different symptoms of the same underlying problem.

I am amazed that people don't think any further than their own backyard when it comes to these
things. Yeah, I like to ride here, but someday, I'd like to go ride with those Fruita Freaks on
their home turf, and get dropped like the crappy rider I am. But that's hard to do if the trails get
closed, hmmm?

</soapbox>

Spider

 

[Jd]

Doug Taylor <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (JD) wrote:
>
>
> >Now go train for your next race, Doug.
>
> My next race is on the road, so I suppose that won't mess up any trails ;-)

Satan

> Before that, however, I will spend most of Saturday with a chainsaw and a crew of 20 volunteers
> cleaning deadfalls and blow downs and trying to reclaim a park trail system which was devastated
> over the winter.

You already posted that information. Do you want me to send your merit badge now, or later? At this
rate, you'll make Beagle Snout in no time.

> Now go train for your next sermon, JD.

I don't need to train for my preachings, that should be obvious. However, today's mission is to
obliterate a bunch of weenie jumps that some assholes put throughout the Prime Cut, digging
illegally in the dirt to do so. A witness advised that it was a bunch of dual crown dildos who are
responsible for this atrocity. Imagine that.

JD

 

[Doug Taylor]

[email protected] (Spider) wrote:

>It's the freeride/DH "image" that's part of the problem - the "x-treem"ness of it all that really
>is the problem. In the desert, cheater and poacher lines are going to be visible forever. Around
>here, people might get hurt or worse. Different symptoms of the same underlying problem.

Which brings this thread full circle back to Horst's original criticism of the bike industry.

Though Horst has his chicken and egg backwards. He thinks freeride bikes will kill mtb'ing because
they are heavy and unwieldy and the public really wants lighter more nimble bikes. In fact, the
majority does NOT prefer light (and expensive) bikes and love the "work" of riding (i.e. climbing)
as well as the thrills (descending, fast single track, and technical). There is, should and will be
a market for hefty long travel trail bikes. Unfortunately, though, "freeride" as a marketing ploy
not only appeals to the majority of trail riders out for a clean, good time, but also to the people
who really will kill the sport: witless, oblivious, ignorant, self-centered, and lazy. --dt

 

[floody]

Originally posted by Jan Sacharuk



> I like my Horst Link bike a lot. The balance of climbing/descending performance is excellent
> compared to other bikes I have owned or demoed.

Even on my VPS-3, the kind of bike that he's complaining about, the suspension action is quite good.
It's only ('only') got 4 inches of travel, but it feels pretty bottomless to me. It's not really a
climber, but I can certainly make a go of sprinting and climbing, and I think it's at least partly
due to the design of the suspension.

Did you know that Horst leitner designed and patented the 4 bar specialized/norco/intense etc rear end design, first? Specialized licensed it off him, then everyone else did. Just look at an AMP B5......

I think he's lost touch. Freeride/trailbikes is/are definitely a valid part of mountain biking. I was putting longer travel forks, azonic riser bars, short stems, big tyres on my hardtail like 8 years ago, well before they labelled that more "extreme" style of bikes and riding. And so were heaps of people. I've been laughing at geeky fitness/xc mountain bikers for all that time too, btw.

I remember amps and those equally atrocious mongoose amplifiers...Sure they were light, and simple, BUT they were light because they were flexy and underbuilt, and its lucky they were simple because the rear ends needed rebuilding every damn week for anyone who wanted to ride a bit harder. The shocks were rubbish even by the standards of the day, and they were ridiculously expensive. There were plenty of other competing, but heavier, designs which were just better, like the early linkage fsr's, all the single pivot bikes, hell even the 855-on proflex bikes worked better.
Look at anything, and more speed, more functionality, more durability always comes with complexity and weight. Look at cars, motorbikes, almost anything in transportation. Look at an MX bike, my dad's classic 1974 bultaco pursang 360 weighs like 87kg, where a new MX bike would be 104kg plus...... The bully is definitely simpler, and lighter, but realistically the new bike would kick its **** from pillar to post.

If you want light and simple, track down an old AMP B2/3/4 or just get a hardtail. Don't whinge about freeride and trail bikes spoiling the purity of mountain biking.
And all this stuff about XC guys being so much cooler in attitude? BULLNUTS. freeriders, downhillers are in most cases a lot more relaxed than the "dusty roadies" who race xc nowadays..

Finally, remember where your sport came from! the genesis of the mountain bike itself was the need for a heavier, stronger bike, for bombing downhill faster.
Transplanted bushwalkers who ***** about bikes getting bigger and faster have NEVER had a position in this sport.

cheers,
floody

 

[Doug Taylor]

floody <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Finally, remember where your sport came from! the genesis of the mountain bike itself was the need
>for a heavier, stronger bike, for bombing downhill faster. Transplanted bushwalkers who ***** about
>bikes getting bigger and faster have NEVER had a position in this sport.

Huh? The sport is now ONLY speed junkies who just want to go downhill fast? What a crock. This is
merely the other extreme from Horst's point of view, and equally false.

Obviously and in fact, there is a whole range of legitimate approaches to off-road biking, from x-c
riding (which includes lighter equipment and a lot of climbing), through trail riding (which might
include rougher terrain and less climbing), through trial riding (self-explanatory), through
freeriding (North Shore etc.), all the way to pure downhilling (take the ski lift to the summit; fly
down). There are a multitude of bikes to choose from to meet every need or desire, from
singlespeeds, to (soon to be extinct?) hardtails, to short travel x-c dualies, to medium travel, to
big travel pseudo motorcycles.

You choose a mount (or more if you are fortunate) to suit your fancy, find the appropriate trails,
and go do it. There is no ONE or RIGHT approach. That only works for religious wing nuts. --dt

 

[Penny S]

floody scrawled in bright red lipstick:

<snipped> I've been laughing at geeky
> fitness/xc mountain bikers for all that time too, btw.

I'll laugh at you when I kick your butt on a 3000' foot climb.

> If you want light and simple, track down an old AMP B2/3/4 or just get a hardtail. Don't whinge
> about freeride and trail bikes spoiling the purity of mountain biking. And all this stuff about XC
> guys being so much cooler in attitude? BULLNUTS. freeriders, downhillers are in most cases a lot
> more relaxed than the "dusty roadies" who race xc nowadays..
>

Would you please define "relaxed" ?

ps

 

[Carla A-G]

"Penny S" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> floody scrawled in bright red lipstick:
>
> <snipped> I've been laughing at geeky
> > fitness/xc mountain bikers for all that time too, btw.
>
> I'll laugh at you when I kick your butt on a 3000' foot climb.

Uh oh, that sounds like a challenge...

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!

 

[Corvus Corvax]

floody <[email protected]> wrote [... Dewbie rant in response to a four-month old post
elided...]

Now, see? This is the problem with cyclingforums.com. It opens things up to people who aren't smart
enough to post to Usenet otherwise. And

CC

 

[John Morgan]

> There are a multitude of bikes to choose from to meet every need or desire, from singlespeeds, to
> (soon to be extinct?) hardtails, to short travel x-c dualies, to medium travel, to big travel
> pseudo motorcycles.

Agreed, except where are the light bikes these days? I think that's what Horst Leitner was trying to
get at... that lightweight full suspension bikes are extinct. They just don't make light bikes
anymore because people abuse them... this means broken frames galore, and subsequently angry
customers, expensive warranty budget, and poor company image. I think it's possible to get a light
full suspension bike, but not from a mass producer... you have to go custom.

Personally, I'd love to ride a 22 pound full suspension bike. I'm 150 pounds, so I could get away
with a frame that's not slathered with gussets and overbuilt for the fattest common denominator.

-John Morgan
--
"I tried lube, careful prying, careful digging and even not so careful digging. Little chunks of
rubber." --Sad Bob

 

[floody]

Originally posted by Doug Taylor
floody <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Finally, remember where your sport came from! the genesis of the mountain bike itself was the need
>for a heavier, stronger bike, for bombing downhill faster. Transplanted bushwalkers who ***** about
>bikes getting bigger and faster have NEVER had a position in this sport.

Huh? The sport is now ONLY speed junkies who just want to go downhill fast? What a crock. This is
merely the other extreme from Horst's point of view, and equally false.

Obviously and in fact, there is a whole range of legitimate approaches to off-road biking,

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that mountain biking is all about downhill charging extreme junkies. OUtwardly, it seems like that is what I meant, and indeed it seems like I am one. I'm not, its just that after doing XC, Trials, DH racing, trailriding, I definitely prefer downhill oriented freeriding and trailriding on less upwardly savage trails. I have so much more fun on the way down that the masochism of the ride up just has lost any attraction. Uphills are just how I get to the top of my downhill!

DH is, like it or not, the foundation of mountain biking, where it all started, you can't deny that. However its diversified considerably, yes.

Trailriding I get. But the idea of going out on XC "punishment rides" just for fitness or exertion rather than any really fun stuff, basicallly like road rides, I can't grasp. If I'm sore at the end of a ride its normally from a big ragdoll, or something like that. I normally finish a ride exhilherated (sp. ?), a little tired, and happy. Not worn out, in pain and grumpy like most "Serious" XC riders/roadies I have encountered seem to be. I would say yes I've walked or been 4x4'ed up more hills than I ride these days, but thats mainly because theres a 3750ft mountain with both awesome trails and a sealed road open to the public all the way to the top, just 10kms from my house!

But hey, whatever floats your boat, in the end! I'm just saying freeride/downhill isn't this huge evil antichrist of mountain biking....In fact its drawing new, different people in (like it or not). If the pierced 16 year olds keep the bike companies going, they (bike manus.)will be able to afford to keep the weight weenies in equipment...

 

[floody]

Originally posted by Penny S
floody scrawled in bright red lipstick:

<snipped> I've been laughing at geeky
> fitness/xc mountain bikers for all that time too, btw.

I'll laugh at you when I kick your butt on a 3000' foot climb.

> If you want light and simple, track down an old AMP B2/3/4 or just get a hardtail. Don't whinge
> about freeride and trail bikes spoiling the purity of mountain biking. And all this stuff about XC
> guys being so much cooler in attitude? BULLNUTS. freeriders, downhillers are in most cases a lot
> more relaxed than the "dusty roadies" who race xc nowadays..
>

Would you please define "relaxed" ?

ps

Well, you may laugh at me at the top, I guess I'll just laugh at you when I kick your **** all the way down! I just don't get the fun of that 3000ft climb I guess. Sorry... But I sure as hell get why the downhill part is fun. Thats me.

Now, to define relaxed, and the lack of it..
Well put it this way. Where I live , some lycra wearing person is far more likely to roost past up hill, declining even a wave or gretting, except to possibly say "on your left" or "move over" and go on grunting up the hill. Then they get Irate when you give them a wide berth whilst disappearing past on the way Down. Couple that with the fact that the roady transplants are just too elitist to talk to anyone, and the walker-to-bike transplants think that the forest is merely theres, and that they are better than anyone who enjoys the excitement of the ride, not just the ferns and tree trunks*. Most of the DH/freeride/traily types will greet you, wave, talk, even stop. They seem more friendly, and out there merely for fun, for the ride, not for some extra-cycling agenda, like fitness, training or the environment. Sure those things can come into my riding too, but I'm primarily there for the ride.

I hate the fact that XC people think they rule the cycling world..its ridiculous. I give about as much of a **** for your 3000ft climbing prowess as you do for my descending skills, or urban skills or whatever. We all ride bikes, we are all equally entititled to our own idea of fun. Except the rack nerds and roadies lol
Not to mention the fact that an unfit descender could probably bulk up and learn to make that climb just as well as some skinny legged dirt-roady, though its unlikely the dirt-roady will ever have the descent skills. I'm not implying anybody here is a skill-less lycra weeny, so don't take it that way.

I think though, my positon is that people who aren't in it for the ride, shouldn't be in it. Get a nature poster and a set of rollers, if fitness is what its about. Just stay out of my way (and I'll stay out of yours) if you are an environmentalist wannabe, I'm doing my thing, you're doing yours. Or take up gardening...

cheers,
floody

*BTW, In my opinion, one tree is as good as any other, and I've seen plenty. I just don't get the tree-hugger thing, I try and keep as far away from trees as possible, I'm not remotely interested in them, heck, I've only had bad experiences with trees, especially the ones that jump out on fast bits of trail...

 

[floody]

Originally posted by Corvus Corvax
floody <[email protected]> wrote [... Dewbie rant in response to a four-month old post
elided...]

Now, see? This is the problem with cyclingforums.com. It opens things up to people who aren't smart
enough to post to Usenet otherwise. And

CC

Oh, sorry did I post on YOUR forum...I bow to lord Corvus Corvax...
I saw the thread, actually I was seaching for something completely different, and I just thought, hmm thats interesting, I'll say something.
So Shoot Me!

Don't make mistaken judgements about my intelligence either. I don't know you, you don't know me.

I'm not going to (publicly) call YOU a moron.....

 

[Doug Taylor]

"John Morgan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:deMcb.17126$vj2.14528@fed1read06...

> Agreed, except where are the light bikes these days? I think that's what Horst Leitner was trying
> to get at... that lightweight full suspension
bikes
> are extinct. They just don't make light bikes anymore because people
abuse
> them... this means broken frames galore, and subsequently angry customers, expensive warranty
> budget, and poor company image. I think it's possible
to
> get a light full suspension bike, but not from a mass producer... you have to go custom.
>
> Personally, I'd love to ride a 22 pound full suspension bike. I'm 150 pounds, so I could get away
> with a frame that's not slathered with gussets and overbuilt for the fattest common denominator.

I does appear that light and dual suspension are almost oxymorons, given you are starting with a
frame that by definition weighs over 5 lbs.

As far as production bikes, I've seen two up close and personal which qualify about as well as can
be expected: Trek Fuel, full XTR, v-brakes; Titus Racer-X, same componants.

 

[floody]

Originally posted by John Morgan


......... slathered with gussets and overbuilt for the fattest common denominator.

-John Morgan

HEY! I resemble that comment!

 

[Penny S]

floody scrawled in bright pink lipstick:
>
>
> Well, you may laugh at me at the top, I guess I'll just laugh at you when I kick your **** all the
> way down! I just don't get the fun of that 3000ft climb I guess. Sorry... But I sure as hell get
> why the downhill part is fun. Thats me.
>
laugh all you want... I'm not fast downhill, never will be and I laugh at myself for it.
. You don't have to have fun my way of riding, but I sure do.

Just be careful how you say your way is better. It isn't. it's just another way. Penny

oh, yeah, welcome to AMB. don't forget to look up our FAQ.

 

[Pete]

"floody" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> I hate the fact that XC people think they rule the cycling world..its ridiculous. I give about as
> much of a **** for your 3000ft climbing prowess as you do for my descending skills, or urban
> skills or whatever. We all ride bikes, we are all equally entititled to our own idea of fun.
> Except the rack nerds and roadies lol Not to mention the fact that an unfit descender could
> probably bulk up and learn to make that climb just as well as some skinny legged dirt-roady,
> though its unlikely the dirt-roady will ever have the descent skills. I'm not implying anybody
> here is a skill-less lycra weeny, so don't take it that way.

Jebus...what a mess of contradictions.

Pete

 

[Penny S]

Pete scrawled in bright red lipstick:
> "floody" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> I hate the fact that XC people think they rule the cycling world..its ridiculous. I give about as
>> much of a **** for your 3000ft climbing prowess as you do for my descending skills, or urban
>> skills or whatever. We all ride bikes, we are all equally entititled to our own idea of fun.
>> Except the rack nerds and roadies lol Not to mention the fact that an unfit descender could
>> probably bulk up and learn to make that climb just as well as some skinny legged dirt-roady,
>> though its unlikely the dirt-roady will ever have the descent skills. I'm not implying anybody
>> here is a skill-less lycra weeny, so don't take it that way.
>
> Jebus...what a mess of contradictions.
>
> Pete

and to think that maybe I wasn't having any fun here:
http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/images/bike/hoodoo4.jpg

Penny

 

[floody]

Originally posted by Penny S
floody scrawled in bright pink lipstick:

laugh all you want... I'm not fast downhill, never will be and I laugh at myself for it.
. You don't have to have fun my way of riding, but I sure do.

Just be careful how you say your way is better. It isn't. it's just another way.

Exactly, just reverse it, thats what I'm trying to say! If xc rides are your thing then good go for it! from the pic in your other post, you look more like a trail rider type than one of the anti social XC hammerheads that I happen to dislike....

I DO have a problem with people who ride for reasons outside the ride itself thats all, and who get antsy when their training ride, or their "look at the trees" ride* gets interrupted by another trail user. I ride because I like riding my bike. Same thing goes whether I've been doing DH/XC/FR/dual slalom/dirtjumping/BMX racing/BMX park/all day trail riding.

Wheres that picture from, looks like some sick chutes to bomb in the background

cheers,
floody

*distinct from going trailriding AND enjoying the environment, by the term "look at trees" ride, I mean when the enjoyment of riding the bike is secondary to the purpose of looking at stuff.

 

[Dave W]

On 26 Sep 2003 13:01:40 +0950, floody <[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm not going to (publicly) call YOU a moron.....

well, you might as well give up now then.