How could "trans fat" possibly be "bad?"



M

montygram

Guest
All the "bad news" is based on "correlations" and "associations."
There was quite a bit of investigation into "trans fat" a few decades
ago, and those studies did not find the major health risks being
claimed for "trans fat" today (see "Modern Nutrition in Health and
Disease" (by Shils and Young, 7th edition, or "Diet and Health" by the
National Research Council, for example).

If claims about "trans fat" are to be taken seriously, they need to be
rooted in science. Would you avoid a food because a local religious
fantatic told you not to eat it because he received a message from
God? If you would, you can stop reading this post now.

So how can we define "trans fat" in a scientific way? It's possible,
but only in an abstract way that is unrelated to health. For example,
you need to have a fat source that has some unsaturated fatty acids in
it to begin with. Then you force hydrogen into at least some of the
double bonds, creating an artificially saturated one. So let's say you
have a highly unsaturated oil, safflower oil. Now you do a very light
hydrogenation, and only convert a very small number of the double bonds
into saturated ones. Is this now "trans fat?" It's effects on your
body will be nearly identical to the safflower oil, with one exception:
you may have stripped all the natural antioxidant protection from that
oil (if it hadn't already been by the "refining" process, that is).
Now let's take another example: you take a fat source like coconut oil,
which is 92% saturated, and using hydrogenation, make it into 93%
saturated. Is this now a "trans fat?" It may be, but it is irrelevant
in terms of health, unless there is a toxic nickel content at this
point (nickel is used in the hydrogenation process).

You should be asking yourself, "why haven't experiments been done that
control for all these variables, and also contro for different
hydrogenation percentages?" The answer is not easy, and probably
involves politics, sociology, economics, and psychology, but clearly,
the scientific method is being ignored here. So let's say you
hydrogenate half of the double bonds in the fat source. Would that be
like eating about half your fat calories from coconut oil and half from
safflower oil? On the molecular level, is there any difference? And
isn't that very similar to what most Americans are eating, in terms of
the kinds of fatty acids molecules, regardless of whether it is called
"trans fat" or not?

There is a key difference. If you were to use fresh, unrefined
safflower oil, and eat plenty of antioxidant-rich foods with it, you
would doing something a lot less unhealthy than someone who eats
"processed" foods that have preservatives that basically stop working
when they are in your mouth as you are eating them. That can be
measured scientifically, and often is (such tests are Rancimat and
ORAC, for example).

There is no argument on this point, for example:

"...reducing the proportion of unsaturated fatty acids which are at
risk of oxidation creates shortening that is less likely to turn
rancid. For example, a typical candy bar might have a shelf life of 30
days without use of hydrogenated oils, while the same product with
hydrogenated oils can last up to 18 months."

Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/trans-fatty-acid

It is also known that people who consume large amounts of coconut
product have very low rates of "chronic disease." So it's not an issue
of double bonds by themselves, but double bonds AND a lack of
antioxidant protection, and that is the "killer combination" that
exists in most of the foods that are said (by the "experts") to contain
"trans fat."
Otherwise, how could it be "dangeorus?" The same bonds are in all fat
sources. We know coconut oil is fine, and it is highly saturated. We
know that most "experts" are saying you need to eat quite a bit of
fatty acids that have double bonds. "Trans fat" has an amount of
double bonds that is close to olive oil, which is being touted by the
"experts" as the "healthiest" oil. As I've said in other posts, low
quality olive oil is very bad news, whereas the highest quality olive
oil is fine, but don't heat it or eat it if it has a rancid taste to
it. Why? Because if there are a lot of double bonds, they need to be
protected with antioxidants, and the high quality olive oil will have
quite a bit of squalene, which is a potent antioxidant, whereas the low
quality olive oil may have none by the time it reaches your mouth.

Many "experts" are talking about "trans fat" as if it is something from
a science fiction movie: "mutant fat from mars." If you don't
understand or "believe" me, do your own experiment: get some mice and
feed half of them the cheapest vegetable oil you can find, along with a
standard "chow" that is low fat or no fat. Feed the other half a
"trans fat" source such as "partially hydrogenated" palm kernel oil.
The fat should be around 25-30% of daily calories. See which group
lives longer.

A new fat source, consisting of fully hydrogenated cottonseed oil
blended with "vegetable oil" that is highly unsaturated is now being
marketed as "trans fat free." If my argument is correct, this fat
source should be no better than existing the existing major "trans fat"
sources, like margarines. Again, if you were to give half of a group
of animals the new concotion, and the other half the old "trans fat"
laden margarines, there should be little if any difference, unless one
of them has a significanly higher amount of antioxidants. So first the
Rancimat test could be run on these two fat sources. If the Rancimat
tests were about the same, then you could do the experiment on the
animals. Accoriding to the "experts" who are raging against "trans
fat," the animals on the new concoction should live longer and
healthier lives. According to my argument, there should be little
difference, though the new concoction may actually be less healthy
(this has to do with a tangential issue, so I won't go into it here).

Again, you should be asking yourself, "why won't these 'experts' do
such simple and inexpensive experiments that would be conclusive?"

I don't know, but now, for a hundred dollars or so (the mice would cost
about $10 for a bunch of them), you could do it yourself and find out.
 
On 10 Feb 2006 20:17:43 -0800, "montygram" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"...reducing the proportion of unsaturated fatty acids which are at
>risk of oxidation creates shortening that is less likely to turn
>rancid. For example, a typical candy bar might have a shelf life of 30
>days without use of hydrogenated oils, while the same product with
>hydrogenated oils can last up to 18 months."
>
>Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/trans-fatty-acid


What is a "typical candy bar"? And why would you use such a silly example? I
realize that the website used the example but you used it also signifying that
you agree with it.

Ora
 
It was an example of the danger: lipid peroxidation. If you used a fat
source that was 100% saturated, it would last for months, at least. I
have had bottles of coconut oil that I stored about 2 years, and it had
no antioxidants added to it - no additives of any kind. When I opened
it up, it still tasted like it was fresh. This was the Coconut Oil
Supreme brand, which I got on a web site, for those interested (I have
no affiliation with them, and actually I now buy the cheap local stuff,
because I only use it to "butter up" pans for bread baking). This
example shows that even when highly unsaturated fat sources have been
partially hydrogenated, you still have to worry about them "going bad"
after a mere 30 days.

Again, if you don't understand it all, you don't have to - just do the
simple and inexpensive experiment and see for yourself.
 
I should also mention that I do agree with this poster in that the
statement is problematic because it is true that a product made with
partially hydrogenated palm kernel or coconut oil will last a long
time, whereas a much more unsaturated oil that is minimally
hydrogenated will not last nearly as long, so there should be more
precision in the statement. As I said, that was not why I cited it.
Rather, I have argued for a different kind of "nutritional science" -
one that examines what is happening at the molecular level, as well as
in actual diets, as opposed to making up abstract, misleading
categories like "saturated fat," "trans fat," "fiber," etc.

Another point worth making is that the early studies on "trans fat"
found that it raised total and LDL cholesterol, while lowering HDL or
having little efffect. This is only "bad" if your cholesterol has been
damaged by oxidation. If not, "high" LDL and TC is healthy, if by that
is meant TC in the 200-220 range, for example (as Ancel Keys himself
pointed out in 1979, if not earlier). You can read books like "Heart
Failure," "The Cholesterol Conspiracy," "Saturated fat may save your
life," and "The Cholesterol Myths" to see how the evidence is
misunderstood, though some of these authors are unaware of the key
point about how cholesterol is damaged by free radicals (or at least
they were not aware when the books were published).

As an aside, I must say this new google feature that allows one to rate
posts is excellent. Now, instead of having to hear the same people
make the same remarks (that I have refuted over and over again), they
can just give all my posts the worst rating without actually reading
any of the post, thereby sparing those who seek scientific explanations
the usual nonsense.
 
Partialy hydrogenating oils dates back to the beginning of the last century.
In the 50's many common foods were established as Generaly Accepted As Safe
without any studies.

There is no incentive for industry to pay for studies on substances they are
already allowed to use in foods.

My guess is that some transfat will turn out to be good, and some transfats
will turn out to be bad. In the meantime, there needs to be a review of
substances used in our foods, which do not exist in nature.

It may be a coincidence that CVD and mental illnesses have increased since
the 20's when margarine was a cheap substitute for butter. However, I have
a hunch that industrial transfats are poison.

How could "trans fat" possibly be "bad?" By building cellwalls out a form
of fat that does not exist in nature, one may interfere with the complex
functions of the cell walls.
 
Cubit wrote:

> How could "trans fat" possibly be "bad?" By building cellwalls out a form
> of fat that does not exist in nature, one may interfere with the complex
> functions of the cell walls.


Finally, a reply that I can reply to.

Approximately 2% of the caveman diet consisted of trans-fat. They have
the same negatives as saturated fat, plus trans-fat will lower your HDL
levels.

They are no more a poison than rancid PUFSAs are.

They are hardly worth mentioning since you usually do not have the
opportunity to avoid them by reading food labels. Hence, your only
strategy is to minimize your consumption of junk food.

Avoid junk food and you have accomplished a number of objectives.
Hence, there is little or no reason to talk about trans-fats.
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!

The nutrition of eating a healthy diet is a biological factor of the
mind-body connection. Weighing in at 17 web pages, The Nutrition of a
Healthy Diet ( http://naturalhealthperspective.com/food/ ) is now with
more documentation and sharper terminology than ever before.
 
On 10 Feb 2006 20:17:43 -0800 in sci.med.nutrition, "montygram"
<[email protected]> wrote,
>So how can we define "trans fat" in a scientific way? It's possible,
>but only in an abstract way that is unrelated to health.


It's simple. If some of the carbon double bonds are in a trans
configuration, then it is a trans fat. If all of them are cis, then
it is not. About as non-abstract as one could hope for.
Do you disagree with that?

Whether or not it is related to health is not a matter to be
answered by definition.
 
"Trans fat" may mean that one double bond was changed within a huge
amount of a fat source, and that is true of natural sources of fat,
such as dairy. Such as fat is not at all dangerous. "Trans fat" where
almost all is now saturated is also fine, unless toxic nickel or
something like that is also in there. My point is that the real
problem is that the food that is called "high in trans fat" acts as an
oxidizing agent more than most other fat sources. They add
antioxidants later, such as the alpha form of vitamin E, which
unbalances tocopherols, and appears (from preliminary studies) to be
unhealthy (in the context of the "typical" diet, anyway).

As to notions of "disrupted lipid bilayer membranes," Gilbert Ling has
demonstrated that this is ridiculous. Read one of his books. He
examines all the evidence in great detail. The problem is too many
double bonds, of whatever configuration, and improper antioxidant
protection. The trans form will interfere with AA metabolization, but
that is actually good ("anti-inflammatory"), though it's better not to
have any AA in your body in the first place, and of course a huge
amount of trans double bonds in the diet is bad news, though it's not
clear whether it's from the lipid peroxidation or something else.
Experiments could be done though, by giving animals a lot of trans
double bonds, but also diverse and plenty of antioxidants, while
another group got no added antioxidants. If the trans configuration
was dangerous by itself, both groups should have similar health
problems.

Ask yourself, "why hasn't a simple, inexpensive, on point, and
definitive study been done?"

The reason is that most "experts" are on the "wrong track," thinking
that the configuration is the problem, when it is too many double bonds
and not enough proper antioxidant protection.

But "trans fat" makes no sense, because, as I said, with a highly
saturated fat source and few trans bonds, the physiological effects
will be the same as a highly saturated fat source. With a light
hydrogenation of a highly polyunsaturated fat source, the effects will
also be the same, as long as the non-hydrogenated PUFA oil has been
refined using modern methods (I'm assuming no antioxidants are added to
any of these fat sources).
 
"montygram" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Trans fat" may mean that one double bond was changed within a huge
> amount of a fat source, and that is true of natural sources of fat,
> such as dairy. Such as fat is not at all dangerous. "Trans fat" where
> almost all is now saturated is also fine, unless toxic nickel or
> something like that is also in there.


I eat baked salmon fillet once per week. I have observed a remarkable
difference between farm raised Atlantic salmon and wild Pacific chinook
salmon as a result of cooking for 10 minutes in a 350°F (177°C) oven. The
latter fish then shows an alabaster white fat which has mostly drained off
the flesh and semisolidified off to the side, whereas the former fish does
not show this at all. Because the observed fat is neither liquid nor
transparent, I conclude that it is saturated fat.

Wild salmon flesh reportedly contains far greater concentrations of EPA and
DHA PUFAs than farm raised salmon flesh. So is the aforementioned fat a
saturated fat that preexisted before the fish was baked, or is it instead a
saturated transfat that formed as a result of the reaction between the
omega-3 PUFAs and fleshborn water?

Note that the flesh of the wild salmon did *not* have a "marbled" appearance
of saturated fat (as is seen in a raw beef steak) before I cooked it.
 
"montygram" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> All the "bad news" is based on "correlations" and "associations."
> There was quite a bit of investigation into "trans fat" a few decades
> ago, and those studies did not find the major health risks being
> claimed for "trans fat" today (see "Modern Nutrition in Health and
> Disease" (by Shils and Young, 7th edition, or "Diet and Health" by the
> National Research Council, for example).


About that book you mentioned-- 'Diet and Health'. Are you referring to
'Diet and Health: Implications for Reducing Chronic Disease Risk', the book
published by the National Academy of Sciences way back in 1989? If so, has
it been updated with any new editions since 1989?
 
"montygram" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If you were to use fresh, unrefined
> safflower oil, and eat plenty of antioxidant-rich foods with it, you
> would doing something a lot less unhealthy than someone who eats
> "processed" foods that have preservatives that basically stop working
> when they are in your mouth as you are eating them. That can be
> measured scientifically, and often is (such tests are Rancimat and
> ORAC, for example).


First of all you are comparing apples with oranges. Why not instead compare
processed foods with and without the added antioxidants? And why do you
believe that the added antioxidants of processed foods stop working when
they are consumed? Since you're the one making the claim, the burden of
evidence is on you.
 
On 13 Feb 2006 02:50:12 -0800 in sci.med.nutrition, "montygram"
<[email protected]> wrote,
> My point is that the real problem is that the food that is called
>"high in trans fat" acts as an oxidizing agent more than most other
>fat sources.


Why is fat with trans bonds more of an oxidizing agent than with cis
bonds?
 
Hi everyone! I am a college student in a nutrition and computers class
and I am completing an assignment where I have to subscribe to a
listserv and reply to topics. So I figured I will just post what I
have been taught about Trans fats for those who may need it broken down
to a simpler level =-)
Trans fats are unsaturated fatty acids that are produced when vegetable
oils are partially hydrogenated. They are used to improve freshness of
products because hydrogenated oils are able to resist rancidity longer
than un-hydrogenated oil (they increase the shelf life of a product) as
well as produce taste and texture improvements such as flakier pie
crusts, crispier chips, and spreadable margarine. Trans fats are
currently looked at in a negative way becuase they have been shown to
raise LDL levels and reduce HDL levels, these results pose a higher
risk for heart disease.