How did lance do it?

[daveryanwyoming]

... Weekend warriors need to pull their heads in (that's everyone NOT racing A grade or Cat 1/2) and find a coach who will spend 1hr per week talking you through how your previous week went and whats on the cards the following week..

I was tempted to fire back one of my theoretical and ******** replies to this post but I thought about it and decided Geoff's right. Lance got good, really good without a power meter, so did Eddy and Coppi, you name it. I realized that all those years of riding as a pack fodder Cat 3 just proved that I suck and the fact I paid nationally certified coaches with lousy results just proves that I lack the genes to succeed. But I now realize that my recent improvements, some podium finishes here and there and getting my 40K times well under an hour were just luck and I still suck because I'm not riding in the Cat 1 field unless you count those Cat1/2 Masters riders I race against all season, but they're old guys.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but it took me a while to strip the PM harnesses off my bikes and trundle all my PT wheels out to the trash bin. I thought about selling the stuff on ebay but I'd feel guilty encouraging another weekend hack to go down the misdirected path of training with objective data. Heck they might try to learn something and it's clear their money would be better spent on coaching. They could always tell their coach that they worked "real hard" during training that week and I can't imagine any benefit of actually sharing the PM data with said coaches.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your insight and setting me straight on the scam called power meters. I feel liberated

-Dave

 

[swampy1970]

I was tempted to fire back one of my theoretical and ******** replies to this post but I thought about it and decided Geoff's right. Lance got good, really good without a power meter, so did Eddy and Coppi, you name it. I realized that all those years of riding as a pack fodder Cat 3 just proved that I suck and the fact I paid nationally certified coaches with lousy results just proves that I lack the genes to succeed. But I now realize that my recent improvements, some podium finishes here and there and getting my 40K times well under an hour were just luck and I still suck because I'm not riding in the Cat 1 field unless you count those Cat1/2 Masters riders I race against all season, but they're old guys.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but it took me a while to strip the PM harnesses off my bikes and trundle all my PT wheels out to the trash bin. I thought about selling the stuff on ebay but I'd feel guilty encouraging another weekend hack to go down the misdirected path of training with objective data. Heck they might try to learn something and it's clear their money would be better spent on coaching. They could always tell their coach that they worked "real hard" during training that week and I can't imagine any benefit of actually sharing the PM data with said coaches.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your insight and setting me straight on the scam called power meters. I feel liberated

-Dave

Lance actually got good by doing lots of swimming and running in speedos. Anyone who shaves everything and then runs around in speedos better be darned fast, if only to avoid the ensuing ridicule. He could run so fast that he actually didn't need a bike during the bike section of triathlons.

 

[Piotr]

Geoff, some people rather enjoy gaining knowledge and experimenting. It's their hobby. Others just like to do what they're told and that gives them a peace of mind that they will get better. Personally, I think that's a bit blind and misguided, but everyone has different goals and comfort zones. For some it's all about the ability, for others, it's about the knowhow. If it was all about racing and personal results, there would be no coaches. You're also dismissing the fact that some of the posters here are indeed coaches.

Wow, that was a bit nicer than I initially planned on, but what they hey...

 

[MPCRUSHER]

Geoff, I am not some newbie racer. I started racing when I was 7 years old back in 82. My father raced and I inherited the same gene.

In the early 90's I thought I might actually make something of myself as a serious roadie, I dedicated everything in my life to racing.
I followed the old mantra of 700-1000 km LSD a week.
I felt tired all the time and seemed to not be getting anywhere. I was riding A grade and could not get out of the hole I was in. I burned out. I had no coach to tell me what was wrong. Coach what is a cycling coach? Where I live the only cycling coaches were the senior riders in the cylcing club.

At 19 years of age I quit cycling and focused on my studies, got fat, lived life like a normal person, got a serious relationship and job, you know the rest...

I look back now and I realize that I simply needed to reduce the mileage and increase the intensity. The PMC chart tells me this. My PM cost me $600.00 and wko $100.00. I consider this the best money I have spent on any cycling equipment period.
How much did you spend on your steed? Seriously I would love to hear an honest answer from you Geoff.
Using your argument, you are a **** if you spend more than a couple hundred bucks. Why would anyone need anything more that a K-Mart special? Put Lance on a K-Mart special and I am sure he could still kick most peoples arses. "My name is Geoff and I think the only people worthy of a good carbon bike with campag ensemble are cat 1 and pros and everyone else are wankers". Geoff the wonderful, Geoff the great, why don't you go off and masturbate.

Geoff, in Australia we call people like you houso scum.
(four our north American friends, houso scum are people who live in tax payer funded housing estates/complexes or otherwise known as housing commission estates, and in most cases there will be a rusting uninsured and unregistered car sitting in the front yard up on bricks)

Anyway, the power meter allows me to focus my efforts. It is like having a personal coach riding next to you pushing you on keeping you motivated. You set off on a ride, you have a plan and you stick to it. I am sure that if I had had a PM back in the day I would have been more happy and successful on the bike.

onya Geoff what a battler you are. oi oi oi

 

[strader]

This threads hilarious!

 

[Geoff Vadar]

Geoff, I am not some newbie racer. I started racing when I was 7 years old back in 82. My father raced and I inherited the same gene.

In the early 90's I thought I might actually make something of myself as a serious roadie, I dedicated everything in my life to racing.
I followed the old mantra of 700-1000 km LSD a week.
I felt tired all the time and seemed to not be getting anywhere. I was riding A grade and could not get out of the hole I was in. I burned out. I had no coach to tell me what was wrong. Coach what is a cycling coach? Where I live the only cycling coaches were the senior riders in the cylcing club.

At 19 years of age I quit cycling and focused on my studies, got fat, lived life like a normal person, got a serious relationship and job, you know the rest...

I look back now and I realize that I simply needed to reduce the mileage and increase the intensity. The PMC chart tells me this. My PM cost me $600.00 and wko $100.00. I consider this the best money I have spent on any cycling equipment period.
How much did you spend on your steed? Seriously I would love to hear an honest answer from you Geoff.
Using your argument, you are a **** if you spend more than a couple hundred bucks. Why would anyone need anything more that a K-Mart special? Put Lance on a K-Mart special and I am sure he could still kick most peoples arses. "My name is Geoff and I think the only people worthy of a good carbon bike with campag ensemble are cat 1 and pros and everyone else are wankers". Geoff the wonderful, Geoff the great, why don't you go off and masterbate.

Geoff, in Australia we call people like you houso scum.
(four our north American friends, houso scum are people who live in tax payer funded housing estates/complexes or otherwise known as housing commission estates, and in most cases there will be a rusting uninsured and unregistered car sitting in the front yard up on bricks)

Anyway, the power meter allows me to focus my efforts. It is like having a personal coach riding next to you pushing you on keeping you motivated. You set off on a ride, you have a plan and you stick to it. I am sure that if I had had a PM back in the day I would have been more happy and successful on the bike.

onya Geoff what a battler you are. oi oi oi

To be honest all this tells me is that you were and are weak of mind. And I am not really having a go at you because everyone is weak of mind at various times in their life. Elite athletes not so much. But you were never destined for greatest at least partially because you didnt have the mental resolve. Pure and simple. (Dont worry I'm a failure just like you.)

And today you require a powermeter to 'babysit' you on a training ride. There are people out their believe it or not who can train their minds to maintain focus in pursuit of their goals.

I will further mount the argument that powermeters are in fact a 'hiding place' for the generally weak of mind.

Perceived effort combined with a very knowledgeable coach will pull the pants down on any self trained powermeter junkie every day of the week.

 

[tonyzackery]

It's obvious he's simply tryin' to jerk chains now...

 

[swampy1970]

Anyway, the power meter allows me to focus my efforts. It is like having a personal coach riding next to you pushing you on keeping you motivated. You set off on a ride, you have a plan and you stick to it.

A powermeter is not like a coach. It's a little box that displays numbers. If you have no coach and just a powermeter then you're your own coach and the powermeter is still a little box on the bars that shows numbers. It's just a little tool that stops you from going too hard or too easy...

A good coach has a proven knowledge of the sport on a physiological, physcological and skill level, is able to get you to where you want to be (within reason - we can't all be Lance-like) and a motivator. A coach should also be able to figure out why sometimes things don't go to plan, provide "a second pair of eyes" on what you may/may not be doing wrong. Sometimes even just being around other riders that are better than you (good coaches often have a gathering of the better riders) then that in itself offers a whole bunch of extra people who are often willing to help out. It's amazing what useful bits of info can be gleaned at 23mph after 3 1/2hours out on the bike when someone mentions that you're not doing "this or that" properly.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

It's obvious he's simply tryin' to jerk chains now...

No way, I might have agreed with you yesterday. But that's when I was still weak minded. Now I've dumped all that snake oil technology **** and I'm sure this is gonna earn me hardman and tough minded status. Please Geoff give me your hardman blessing. I repent, I was a weak minded sinner but I've seen the light and the light is Geoff....

BTW, how do you or your coach test for position and CdA on a TT bike based on RPE? I know there must be a tough minded solution but I was only able to take three minutes off my 40k time last season and podium in two state championships by tuning my position for watts/CdA using my PM. I've changed TT bikes this year and need to know the secret hardman way to optimize my position, since I suck as a lowly masters rider I know you won't allow me to spend a grand or two on wind tunnel testing and roll down testing doesn't tell you much about power vs. position tradeoffs. What's the secret oh mighty hardman Geoff???

Your tough minded disciple,
-Dave

 

[Piotr]

To be honest all this tells me is that you were and are weak of mind. And I am not really having a go at you because everyone is weak of mind at various times in their life. Elite athletes not so much. But you were never destined for greatest at least partially because you didnt have the mental resolve. Pure and simple. (Dont worry I'm a failure just like you.)

And today you require a powermeter to 'babysit' you on a training ride. There are people out their believe it or not who can train their minds to maintain focus in pursuit of their goals.

I will further mount the argument that powermeters are in fact a 'hiding place' for the generally weak of mind.

Perceived effort combined with a very knowledgeable coach will pull the pants down on any self trained powermeter junkie every day of the week.

I think you got it backwards. Coaching is much more akin to babysitting if it's not literally so. Certainly, self-coaching takes more discipline that just following a plan conveniently made by someone else.

 

[strader]

I think you got it backwards. Coaching is much more akin to babysitting if it's not literally so. Certainly, self-coaching takes more discipline that just following a plan conveniently made by someone else.

Yes, but that requires thinking, and thinking is only for the Weak of Mind.

 

[Watoni]

No way, I might have agreed with you yesterday. But that's when I was still weak minded. Now I've dumped all that snake oil technology **** and I'm sure this is gonna earn me hardman and tough minded status. Please Geoff give me your hardman blessing. I repent, I was a weak minded sinner but I've seen the light and the light is Geoff....

BTW, how do you or your coach test for position and CdA on a TT bike based on RPE? I know there must be a tough minded solution but I was only able to take three minutes off my 40k time last season and podium in two state championships by tuning my position for watts/CdA using my PM. I've changed TT bikes this year and need to know the secret hardman way to optimize my position, since I suck as a lowly masters rider I know you won't allow me to spend a grand or two on wind tunnel testing and roll down testing doesn't tell you much about power vs. position tradeoffs. What's the secret oh mighty hardman Geoff???

Your tough minded disciple,
-Dave

I love you man, BUT YOU ARE STILL NOT GETTING MY PM!

Oh, and Lance had advice and years worth of wisdom from folks like Ferrari who use climbs to test and can calculate watts/kg by VAM. But I can't afford the OJ, man ... I'll stick with UCI approved PT hubs

 

[Geoff Vadar]

BTW, how do you or your coach test for position and CdA on a TT bike based on RPE?

We dont.

I know there must be a tough minded solution but I was only able to take three minutes off my 40k time last season and podium in two state championships by tuning my position for watts/CdA using my PM.

You have mentioned this a few times now davod. Let me escplain a bit for you in simple terms regarding your 3 minute improvement.

Last season fitness > the year prior. (Due to a whole range of factors predominantly out of your immediate zone of influence)

Your positional improvements were marginal at best. The fact you trained with power over and above RPE almost as marginal. You are only Cat 3 right? Therefor powermeter is fairly marginal proposition IMO. You could find the same level on RPE. In fact all your results will be more in line with your racing experience/nouse rather than your committment to powermeter dogma.

Your tough minded disciple,
-Dave

Chin up tiger. You love it.

 

[Felt_Rider]

It is funny that I sent Dave an email yesterday morning about selling me an older PT PM last August and then read this thread this morning about how PM's are virtually a waste of time and money.

My sentiments to Dave were thankfulness that he helped me get started and how I can see progress since last August when I switched from training with RPE (because that was my only option) to now using the PM. Regardless of what anyone thinks I am absolutely sold on using a PM now. So much so that soon after I bought the used PM from Dave I bought a 2nd PM from my other bike.

If I raced bikes I believe I would tell my competition that they are a waste of time and money. Don't get one because they do nothing at all to help you.

To those who have helped me since last August this is how it has played out for me.

Between August and January, I slugged away using the PM primarily on the trainer and saw very little progression between those months. If anything very tiny improvements, but as I read post here about keeping the faith and staying with it there will be a day that something will happen.

Well in February something happened and the faith, consistency and using the PM to get into those working zones have paid off big time. In the past few weeks output on the trainer and the road jumped up a good bit. To the point I am almost shocked. This is not an imagined jump in ability as the group I ride with is finding out lately. What is happening on the road plays right along with the jump in power output I am seeing.

When I first got my PM there were a lot of skeptics in my group, but now during and after my rides people are bombarding me with questions about my training schedule.

I thought I trained my butt off under RPE, but was always unsure if I was getting into those zones. Now that I train with the PM I know I wasn't getting into those working zones. Those working zones are much more uncomfortable that I had imagined under RPE.

To my friends that are skeptics, I am perfectly fine with them staying skeptics and my thoughts to them is, "I will wait for you back in the parking lot." (which by the way is a reality this past month)

A lot of hard work still planned, but I am more motivated to stick with it.

 

[Geoff Vadar]

Hey look like I said originally if you can get one cheap then I'm all for it. But top of the line brand new powermeter for an average club cyclist? forgetaboutit.

Dont turn all retarded on me you lot and try and turn this into a train with power vs RPE only debate.

My position is clear:

a) current prices are ******** in general
b) at current prices only pros cat1/2 is justifiable
c) if you can pick one up around $500 then go for it.
d) learn the sport first i.e spend your money on a practical knowledge based coach (and how to listen to your body via RPE) before adding really detailed power based specificity.

Now shut up and accept my self appointed authoriti you bungholes. Remember powermeters arent always the answer to your further development. There is bit too much powermeter idolisation going on.

 

[jsirabella]

And still not one mention about his numbers, achievements past or present...it seems that your training has taken you quite far.

-js

Hey look like I said originally if you can get one cheap then I'm all for it. But top of the line brand new powermeter for an average club cyclist? forgetaboutit.

Dont turn all retarded on me you lot and try and turn this into a train with power vs RPE only debate.

My position is clear:

a) current prices are ******** in general
b) at current prices only pros cat1/2 is justifiable
c) if you can pick one up around $500 then go for it.
d) learn the sport first i.e spend your money on a practical knowledge based coach (and how to listen to your body via RPE) before adding really detailed power based specificity.

Now shut up and accept my self appointed authoriti you bungholes. Remember powermeters arent always the answer to your further development. There is bit too much powermeter idolisation going on.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Your positional improvements were marginal at best. The fact you trained with power over and above RPE almost as marginal. You are only Cat 3 right?....

Thank you for the clarification master. In my weak minded state I failed to see that a reduction of CdA from .27 to .23 has to take into account the racing category on my license. The power meter and regression testing data clearly could not integrate that important factor and falsely predict lower times for the same fitness. I see now the false reliance on weak minded numbers and realize my improved times were simply placebo effect.

Thank you also for pointing out the greater commitment in the past two seasons versus twelve consecutive years of racing with poor results under the guidance of nationally recognized coaches. I see now that my recent success is because tough minded racers must go through a lengthy initiation period with many mid pack and off the back finishes and that the renewed committment of racing later in life automatically delivers better results with or without objective measurement and feedback tools.

...Hey look like I said originally if you can get one cheap then I'm all for it...

But master, at what price point does weak mindedness cease? Or is it acceptable to be a weak minded racer if you can get a good deal on the enabling mind weakener?

As part of my tutelage could you review all my household finances and tell me what items I may or may not purchase to maintain my strong minded status? I find it's important to have one of your stature review all my spending habits to tell me what I'm permitted to purchase lest I fall into the trap of spending discretionary funds on weak minded toys.

Your ever faithful and duly subservient tough minded disciple,
-Dave

 

[rmur17]

Thank you for the clarification master. In my weak minded state I failed to see that a reduction of CdA from .27 to .23 has to take into account the racing category on my license. The power meter and regression testing data clearly could not integrate that important factor and falsely predict lower times for the same fitness. I see now the false reliance on weak minded numbers and realize my improved times were simply placebo effect.

Thank you also for pointing out the greater commitment in the past two seasons versus twelve consecutive years of racing with poor results under the guidance of nationally recognized coaches. I see now that my recent success is because tough minded racers must go through a lengthy initiation period with many mid pack and off the back finishes and that the renewed committment of racing later in life automatically delivers better results with or without objective measurement and feedback tools.

But master, at what price point does weak mindedness cease? Or is it acceptable to be a weak minded racer if you can get a good deal on the enabling mind weakener?

As part of my tutelage could you review all my household finances and tell me what items I may or may not purchase to maintain my strong minded status? I find it's important to have one of your stature review all my spending habits to tell me what I'm permitted to purchase lest I fall into the trap of spending discretionary funds on weak minded toys.

Your ever faithful and duly subservient tough minded disciple,
-Dave

HUGE

 

[kennf]

b) at current prices only pros cat1/2 is justifiable
c) if you can pick one up around $500 then go for it.

Do you also have a schedule of how much we can spend on a bike given our category?

 

[swampy1970]

Thank you for the clarification master. In my weak minded state I failed to see that a reduction of CdA from .27 to .23 has to take into account the racing category on my license. The power meter and regression testing data clearly could not integrate that important factor and falsely predict lower times for the same fitness. I see now the false reliance on weak minded numbers and realize my improved times were simply placebo effect.

-Dave

Maybe you went faster due to lower than normal atmospheric air pressure and a rising tailwind whilst coming back from the far turn... during your fastest time trial