How do I recognize Dt Swiss Champion spokes?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Derk, Feb 24, 2006.

  1. Derk

    Derk Guest

    Hi,

    I bought a wheelset that was said to have black DT Swiss Champion spokes
    spokes. The spokes are black, but I see no letters on the spoke heads.

    Should there be any?

    TIA1, Derk
     
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  2. Derk wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I bought a wheelset that was said to have black DT Swiss Champion
    > spokes spokes. The spokes are black, but I see no letters on the
    > spoke heads.
    >
    > Should there be any?
    >
    > TIA1, Derk


    Yes. DT spokes will have a head-stamp. They will also have a
    brown-anodized-looking color when viewed in direct sunlight. Cheaper black
    spokes will look distinctively darker black and "painted" with a more
    reflective finish than actual DT spokes. Send the wheelset back. Would you
    mind telling us who your seller is?
    --
    Phil, Squid-in-Training
     
  3. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    The heads have a hard-to-read "DT" stamped into them, with the letters
    overlapping. Champion spokes are swaged, so if you pinch them in the
    middle and slide your fingers toward the nipple, you can feel them get
    thicker about 1-1/2" from the nipple.

    Here's a really low-res image of the head stamp (original larger images
    have changed):
    http://images.google.com/images?q=d...=&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2005-09,GGGL:en&start=20&sa=N

    And here's a decent side view of the stamp:
    http://www.dtswiss.com/index.asp?fuseaction=spokes.bikedetail&id=7
     
  4. Art Harris

    Art Harris Guest

    Mike Reed wrote:

    > Champion spokes are swaged, so if you pinch them in the
    > middle and slide your fingers toward the nipple, you can feel them get
    > thicker about 1-1/2" from the nipple.


    DT Competition spokes are swaged; Champions are straight gauge.

    Art Harris
     
  5. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    Oh yeah, my bad. Too many shared letters :-/
     
  6. Derk

    Derk Guest

    Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

    > Yes. DT spokes will have a head-stamp. They will also have a
    > brown-anodized-looking color when viewed in direct sunlight.

    That's what I thought.

    > Cheaper black spokes will look distinctively darker black and "painted"
    > with a more reflective finish than actual DT spokes.
    > Send the wheelset back. Would you mind telling us who your seller is?

    A big german Internet bikeshop. I'll give their name if they don't answer my
    mails. I didn't get any reply till now.


    Greetings, Derk
     
  7. Derk

    Derk Guest

    I found it! The spokes are black Sapim spokes. "SAP" is written on the
    spoke, not far from the hub.

    I can't feel that they're double-butted. How strong are these simple Sapim
    spokes? The wheelset is for my winter bike. I paid 160 Euro's for the
    wheelset with Dt Swiss RR1.1 rims, Ultegra 10S hubs. Don't forget: the
    yshould have DT Swiss Champion spokes.

    I have 2 options: send the wheelset back, but I'll have to pay 15-20 Euro's
    for transport or keep them till they break and then have Sapim Race spokes
    put into the wheels.

    Greets, Derk
     
  8. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    Derk <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > I found it! The spokes are black Sapim spokes. "SAP" is written on the
    > spoke, not far from the hub.
    >
    > I can't feel that they're double-butted. How strong are these simple
    > Sapim spokes? The wheelset is for my winter bike. I paid 160 Euro's
    > for the wheelset with Dt Swiss RR1.1 rims, Ultegra 10S hubs. Don't
    > forget: the yshould have DT Swiss Champion spokes.
    >
    > I have 2 options: send the wheelset back, but I'll have to pay 15-20
    > Euro's for transport or keep them till they break and then have Sapim
    > Race spokes put into the wheels.
    >
    > Greets, Derk


    Yet another option - keep them, and ride them, even if they never break.
    You could, simultaneously obtain a nice commercial gesture from the seller,
    if you complain cordially. It's been known to happen.
    --
    Bonne route !

    Sandy
    Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
     
  9. Nate Knutson

    Nate Knutson Guest

    Derk wrote:
    > I found it! The spokes are black Sapim spokes. "SAP" is written on the
    > spoke, not far from the hub.
    >
    > I can't feel that they're double-butted. How strong are these simple Sapim
    > spokes? The wheelset is for my winter bike. I paid 160 Euro's for the
    > wheelset with Dt Swiss RR1.1 rims, Ultegra 10S hubs. Don't forget: the
    > yshould have DT Swiss Champion spokes.
    >
    > I have 2 options: send the wheelset back, but I'll have to pay 15-20 Euro's
    > for transport or keep them till they break and then have Sapim Race spokes
    > put into the wheels.
    >
    > Greets, Derk


    Sapim spokes are high quality. All the "premium" makers, such as
    Wheelsmith, Sapim, and DT are pretty identitical in terms of quality
    for each gauge. It's actually cool to avoid DT because they've shown
    willingness to do some pretty lame stuff before, like lengthening the
    elbows on all their spokes to make automated spoke loading easier. And
    now making overpriced rims that are as lame as almost all the other
    currently produced rims.

    Spokes primarily break because during the wheelbuilding process they
    weren't stress-relieved and/or didn't have any bends at the nipple or
    hub corrected. Search this group for numerous long, stormy, mostly
    garble threads about this. Left spokes can also break in 8/9/10s wheels
    from issues with getting completely unloaded all the time. Thinner
    spokes are probably marginally more resilient to this than thicker.
     
  10. Derk

    Derk Guest

    Nate Knutson wrote:

    >
    > Sapim spokes are high quality. All the "premium" makers, such as
    > Wheelsmith, Sapim, and DT are pretty identitical in terms of quality
    > for each gauge.

    It's just that I think that especially mail order companies shouldn't send
    other stuff than what they advertise. I can get the Champion spokes easily
    here, but don't know about spare "cheap" Sapim. Last time I ordered Sapim,
    it took about 4 months before they sent CX-Ray spokes to my LBS.

    Greets, Derk
     
  11. Chalo

    Chalo Guest

    Derk wrote:
    >
    > I found it! The spokes are black Sapim spokes. "SAP" is written on the
    > spoke, not far from the hub.
    >
    > I can't feel that they're double-butted. How strong are these simple Sapim
    > spokes? The wheelset is for my winter bike. I paid 160 Euro's for the
    > wheelset with Dt Swiss RR1.1 rims, Ultegra 10S hubs. Don't forget: the
    > yshould have DT Swiss Champion spokes.


    Sapim spokes are first quality; I have used them for most of my wheels
    in the last 5 years and I have yet to break one or otherwise have a
    problem with them. DT Champions are straight gauge too, so you have
    not taken a penalty in that regard. In my experience, Sapim spokes
    exhibit reliability and consistency at least equal to that of DT
    spokes.

    Chalo Colina
     
  12. Chalo Colina writes:

    >> I found it! The spokes are black Sapim spokes. "SAP" is written on
    >> the spoke, not far from the hub.


    >> I can't feel that they're double-butted. How strong are these
    >> simple Sapim spokes? The wheelset is for my winter bike. I paid 160
    >> Euro's for the wheelset with Dt Swiss RR1.1 rims, Ultegra 10S
    >> hubs. Don't forget: they should have DT Swiss Champion spokes.


    > Sapim spokes are first quality; I have used them for most of my
    > wheels in the last 5 years and I have yet to break one or otherwise
    > have a problem with them. DT Champions are straight gauge too, so
    > you have not taken a penalty in that regard. In my experience,
    > Sapim spokes exhibit reliability and consistency at least equal to
    > that of DT spokes.


    I am often dismayed by the information given by some manufacturers on
    their web sites. Sapim lists a fatigue test of 980,000 cycles (wheel
    rotations) which is about 2054 km for a 700C wheel. Why list such
    numbers if they are that meaningless in the context of bicycling.

    As I said, I have about 300,000 mi on my set of spokes and they have
    no hint of fatigue failure, considering that they shouldn't at the low
    stresses derived from wheel loads that they carry. That would be
    about 230,000,000 wheel rotations, and so what. I wonder who reviews
    what product information is posted such on a manufacturer's web site.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  13. me

    me Guest

    "Derk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hi,
    >
    > I bought a wheelset that was said to have black DT Swiss Champion spokes
    > spokes. The spokes are black, but I see no letters on the spoke heads.
    >
    > Should there be any?
    >
    > TIA1, Derk


    My own experiences with Sapim spokes (X-rays) have been outstanding. With
    DT, not so much. I'd keep the Sapims myself.

    Me
     
  14. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Chalo Colina writes:
    >
    >
    >>>I found it! The spokes are black Sapim spokes. "SAP" is written on
    >>>the spoke, not far from the hub.

    >
    >
    >>>I can't feel that they're double-butted. How strong are these
    >>>simple Sapim spokes? The wheelset is for my winter bike. I paid 160
    >>>Euro's for the wheelset with Dt Swiss RR1.1 rims, Ultegra 10S
    >>>hubs. Don't forget: they should have DT Swiss Champion spokes.

    >
    >
    >>Sapim spokes are first quality; I have used them for most of my
    >>wheels in the last 5 years and I have yet to break one or otherwise
    >>have a problem with them. DT Champions are straight gauge too, so
    >>you have not taken a penalty in that regard. In my experience,
    >>Sapim spokes exhibit reliability and consistency at least equal to
    >>that of DT spokes.

    >
    >
    > I am often dismayed by the information given by some manufacturers on
    > their web sites. Sapim lists a fatigue test of 980,000 cycles (wheel
    > rotations) which is about 2054 km for a 700C wheel. Why list such
    > numbers if they are that meaningless in the context of bicycling.


    so what other metric do you propose??? have you ever done any fatigue
    testing? 0-80kg is a perfectly reasonable test.

    >
    > As I said, I have about 300,000 mi on my set of spokes and they have
    > no hint of fatigue failure, considering that they shouldn't at the low
    > stresses derived from wheel loads that they carry. That would be
    > about 230,000,000 wheel rotations, and so what. I wonder who reviews
    > what product information is posted such on a manufacturer's web site.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt


    as usual, you seem bent on demonstrating that you don't know a damned
    thing about fatigue. the sapim test is for cycles of 0-80kg. you'd
    know that if you'd bothered to do a little googling. now, going back to
    the basics of s-n curves, and for the sake of argument, let's use your
    contention that spokes barely lose all their tension, how does that
    affect the projected fatigue life jobst?
     
  15. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    Derk wrote:
    > I found it! The spokes are black Sapim spokes. "SAP" is written on the
    > spoke, not far from the hub.
    >
    > I can't feel that they're double-butted. How strong are these simple Sapim
    > spokes? The wheelset is for my winter bike. I paid 160 Euro's for the
    > wheelset with Dt Swiss RR1.1 rims, Ultegra 10S hubs. Don't forget: the
    > yshould have DT Swiss Champion spokes.
    >
    > I have 2 options: send the wheelset back, but I'll have to pay 15-20 Euro's
    > for transport or keep them till they break and then have Sapim Race spokes
    > put into the wheels.
    >
    > Greets, Derk


    sapim are better. you can complain if they were supposed to be butted
    but aren't, but get your calipers out and measure first.
     
  16. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    Nate Knutson wrote:
    > Derk wrote:
    >
    >>I found it! The spokes are black Sapim spokes. "SAP" is written on the
    >>spoke, not far from the hub.
    >>
    >>I can't feel that they're double-butted. How strong are these simple Sapim
    >>spokes? The wheelset is for my winter bike. I paid 160 Euro's for the
    >>wheelset with Dt Swiss RR1.1 rims, Ultegra 10S hubs. Don't forget: the
    >>yshould have DT Swiss Champion spokes.
    >>
    >>I have 2 options: send the wheelset back, but I'll have to pay 15-20 Euro's
    >>for transport or keep them till they break and then have Sapim Race spokes
    >>put into the wheels.
    >>
    >>Greets, Derk

    >
    >
    > Sapim spokes are high quality. All the "premium" makers, such as
    > Wheelsmith, Sapim, and DT are pretty identitical in terms of quality
    > for each gauge. It's actually cool to avoid DT because they've shown
    > willingness to do some pretty lame stuff before, like lengthening the
    > elbows on all their spokes to make automated spoke loading easier. And
    > now making overpriced rims that are as lame as almost all the other
    > currently produced rims.
    >
    > Spokes primarily break because during the wheelbuilding process they
    > weren't stress-relieved and/or didn't have any bends at the nipple or
    > hub corrected. Search this group for numerous long, stormy, mostly
    > garble threads about this.


    garbled is the word and repeating this contextless drivel about
    "residual stress" doesn't help.

    since you're new, here's a quick re-hash re jobst's "stress relief"
    theory errors:

    1. he's never shown any evidence that there is residual stress in the
    spoke above that already found in a heavily cold worked tensile wire.
    x-ray or even a simple d.i.y. stress corrosion test would be proof.
    assumption that spoke manufacturers that have been in the business for
    50+ years have never heard of residual stress mitigation is just insulting.

    2. he asserts that "correcting the spoke line" is necessary [in direct
    contradiction of explicit manufacturer recommendations], when in fact,
    it's more likely to /introduce/ residual stress than his "relief" is to
    be able to mitigate it.

    3. he's never differentiated between the influence of alleged "residual
    stress" on fatigue life and the *inherent* bending stress that fatigues
    any traditional j-bend spoke.

    4. he conveniently forgets to emphasize the profound impact use of
    improved materials [such as vacuum degassed stainless steels] has on
    improving fatigue life. in fact, all other things being equal, it's the
    single biggest factor affecting spoke life. period.

    [4. he also conveniently claims credit for "inventing" spoke squeezing,
    a seating process that pre-dates his birth, but hey, that's not
    metallurgy, so let's not go too deep there.]

    so when jobst then asserts that this alleged "residual stress" can be
    "relieved" with an uncertain/arbitrary stress that does not raise the
    material above yield, [spoke squeezing] and that the "relief" mechanism
    is one that takes advantage of a strain aging mechanism not found in
    stainless spoke steels, metallurgists just roll around on the floor
    laughing. bottom line nate, don't go about regurgitating jobstian
    garbage just it /sounds/ authoritative - because it's not.

    to be clear though, does spoke squeezing build a better wheel?
    absolutely - it beds the spokes in and ensures a wheel remains true in
    use. can it eliminate fatigue in a material with no fatigue endurance
    limit? absolutely not.

    > Left spokes can also break in 8/9/10s wheels
    > from issues with getting completely unloaded all the time. Thinner
    > spokes are probably marginally more resilient to this than thicker.
    >
     
  17. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    jim beam wrote:

    > 2. he asserts that "correcting the spoke line" is necessary [in direct
    > contradiction of explicit manufacturer recommendations]


    First manufacturer I looked up online says to correct the spoke line
    with a mallet: (see page 19)
    http://www.bontrager.com/assets/it/File_Listings/asset_upload_file325_12995.pdf

    "Support the wheel on a flat surface with the right
    side facing up. Place the nylon punch on the first spoke
    about where the spoke leaves the hub flange (Fig. 22).
    Firmly tap the punch with a small mallet to make the
    spoke nearly conform to the shape of the hub flange (Fig.
    21). Repeat this for all spokes. This operation normally
    reduces spoke tension."

    -Mike
     
  18. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    Mike Reed wrote:
    > jim beam wrote:
    >
    >
    >>2. he asserts that "correcting the spoke line" is necessary [in direct
    >>contradiction of explicit manufacturer recommendations]

    >
    >
    > First manufacturer I looked up online says to correct the spoke line
    > with a mallet: (see page 19)
    > http://www.bontrager.com/assets/it/File_Listings/asset_upload_file325_12995.pdf
    >
    > "Support the wheel on a flat surface with the right
    > side facing up. Place the nylon punch on the first spoke
    > about where the spoke leaves the hub flange (Fig. 22).
    > Firmly tap the punch with a small mallet to make the
    > spoke nearly conform to the shape of the hub flange (Fig.
    > 21). Repeat this for all spokes. This operation normally
    > reduces spoke tension."
    >
    > -Mike
    >

    that's seating the head, not bending the elbow which brandt advocates
    and which is specifically warned against by manufacturers like sapim.
    not only does bending the elbow run the risk of residual stress
    introduction, it's unnecessary because the deformation of the alloy hub
    hole on tension seats the spoke elbow at an average of about 95 degrees
    - which is "coincidentally" what spokes happen to be formed at in the
    factory. who'da-thunk that a manufacturer would bother to do their
    homework?
     
  19. Mike Reed writes:

    >> 2. he asserts that "correcting the spoke line" is necessary [in
    >> direct contradiction of explicit manufacturer recommendations]


    > First manufacturer I looked up online says to correct the spoke line
    > with a mallet: (see page 19)


    http://www.bontrager.com/assets/it/File_Listings/asset_upload_file325_12995.pdf

    # Support the wheel on a flat surface with the right side facing
    # up. Place the nylon punch on the first spoke about where the spoke
    # leaves the hub flange (Fig. 22). Firmly tap the punch with a small
    # mallet to make the spoke nearly conform to the shape of the hub
    # flange (Fig. 21). Repeat this for all spokes. This operation
    # normally reduces spoke tension.

    It's nice to see that the writers carefully paraphrased part of their
    text for this item from "the Bicycle Wheel" where this is described
    and the reasons for doing so are given. However, I don't believe
    theirs is a reasonable method because it also easily bends flanges
    rather than just the spoke. Manual bending of the spoke is easy and
    safe. In the absence of calloused thumbs, use leather gloves. This
    need be done only once to ALL outbound spokes.

    They even got their picture right from the book.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  20. Derk wrote:
    > I found it! The spokes are black Sapim spokes. "SAP" is written on the
    > spoke, not far from the hub.
    >
    > I can't feel that they're double-butted. How strong are these simple Sapim
    > spokes? The wheelset is for my winter bike. I paid 160 Euro's for the
    > wheelset with Dt Swiss RR1.1 rims, Ultegra 10S hubs. Don't forget: the
    > yshould have DT Swiss Champion spokes.
    >
    > I have 2 options: send the wheelset back, but I'll have to pay 15-20 Euro's
    > for transport or keep them till they break and then have Sapim Race spokes
    > put into the wheels.



    Sapim are almost as good as DT, and much better than ACI. IMO, of
    course ;-)

    If they're plain gauge and you wanted double-butted, you have an
    inferior product. If the builder made a mistake you should get your
    shipping costs back.
     
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