How Do These Airborne Specs Look?



E

Eric Hill

Guest
C'mon people, be as diligent in your topicality as you are in your bike
opinions. At least take r.b.marketplace out.

-eric
 
J

jj

Guest
On 23 Jul 2005 10:36:29 -0700, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]com> wrote:

>
>Jeff Starr wrote:
>>
>>
>> Bill, he kind of reminds me of early Maggie, without the charm. This
>> guy is so full of preconceived ideas, that it will take a miracle to
>> get through to him.

>
>LOL -- actually, I simply have no idea what it means to be "fit to a
>bike"...what, they take out the tape measure like at the tailor's?


They take several measurements, inseam being one of the more important. Are
you long-torsoed and short legged? If the reverse, you might want a shorter
top tube - normally women require this having shorter torsos in comparison
to leg length, I think.

>> For the OP, go to a LBS and get a professional fitting, bicycles can
>> be comfortable.

>
>That's just the thing -- I haven't any idea what "comfortable" means!


Yet you use the term a lot.

>There's this bike shop, Pedal Pushers, that claims to do *laser*
>fitting...how do I know it's not just a gimmick?


They just aim the laser like a straight edge ruler and measure your body.
If you have a substantial leg-length discrepancy you might need a wedge to
align your feet on the pedals.

>I say bikes are uncomfortable because I just haven't experienced total
>"comfort" on any -- but then again, all physical activity involves some
>measure of discomfort...could just be the hectic way I ride, too --
>could be all the pothole patches in NYC I have to go over, all the
>bumps...who knows?


When I'm riding well there's no sense of 'bike discomfort', and I'm a
newbie.

>> Overly padded bike saddles are generally not
>> comfortable on longer rides. Another thing, two brands of bike with
>> the same size listing, may be very different. Geometry and where they
>> measure, affects this.

>
>Wow, this is worse than buying clothes and shoes!
>
>> Maybe some background would help. What is your age and level of
>> fitness? How often do you ride? Do you wear padded bicycle shorts?
>> Where are you located?

>
>33, very fit (cardio and anaerobic), been riding since like 13, commute
>two hours four days a week and/or ride for six hours on the weekend
>exploring the NYC area. I don't wear padded shorts.


You're a Fred? <g> Why don't you wear proper cycling clothes? No wonder you
feel 'crotch' problems. You -know- the reason to wear padded shorts yet you
come here and say you need a big padded saddle and your bike is
uncomfortable. Most people would be uncomfortable and have numbness riding
for six hours.

>Sorry, biking alway's been a "pick-up-and-go" affair for me...never
>imagined it's can be such a science for amateurs!


Sure you have - thus the reason you came here and 'googled'.

jj
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
RonSonic wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
>
>
> Sorta like finding a luxury car with sports car performance and minivan cargo
> capacity.


Yup! What's the big deal with that?? Why can't you have a woman
that's pretty and smart? <DUCKS>

> Point is, all other things are never equal. The bike I scoot up to the library
> on is a bit different from the one I blast through the forests with and those
> are nothing like the road beast. All do have some commonality in how I fit, but
> horses for courses as they say.


I guess I'm looking for a bike that really epitomizes the "hybrid"
concept, that's all. I too will move on to more specific roles for
each bike as I build up a "collection" in time...just want this
"workhorse" to be a good general all-around machine.

> If you wanna fuss about it then learn about it. Don't fuss AND cling to your
> ignorance. That's stupid.


I would think I'm learning right now! How am I clinging to anything?
Because I ask, because I doubt?

> Well either get off your ass and find out -


Uh, how do I get off my ass and "find out"...I thought that's the whole
point of this thread!

>OR - explain just what sort of
> riding you're doing that you fear LX is not good enough to handle so you can get
> some meaningful advice.


My suspicion is only based on the fact that the bike's "only" $1,200
and yet only weighs in at 19 lbs. I'm figuring corners may have been
cut somewhere!

> And brother unless you use words like "gnarly, sick,
> xtreme" to describe the enormous "drops, hucks and jumps" you're taking, LX is
> more than strong enough.


No, I don't do "tricks" -- guess I'll be fine, then. Thanks!

> That part I understand. Now the part you need to understand is that you are
> responsible for either learning enough to make all these decisions yourself,
> which also means paying money for your mistakes, or put yourself in the hands of
> someone who knows and giving him the information necessary.


Yes, Master!

> Nope. One of the reason we have so many manufacturers is to provide bikes that
> fit so many different people. They ain't all the same. I've got two 21" mountain
> bikes, that are so different you wouldn't think they were the same size at all.
> It's funny, I line those up with my 60cm road bike and the bars, saddles and
> cranks all sorta line up, sorta, but nothing else is the same.


I really don't get it...what the hell does 21 inches mean anymore??
LOL..."size" doesn't matter!

> Trust me, these parts are better than you.


??

> Nah, just need to learn to do your own maintenance.


So things are supposed to wear out??

I guess I really have got it backwards...I'm think bikes are inherently
"uncomfortable" but should "last"...seems like the only thing that
lasts is the frame itself -- everything else can be expected to see
replacement, including rims!

> And there's a lot of messengers out there with ONE caliper brake and a fixed
> gear, which doesn't stop any better than a coaster brake.


And there are messengers who use track bikes with no brakes -- ?!?!

I'm just saying, in response to your question, that at 5'11" and 230
lbs. I ride often and I ride hard!

> Don't let the
> advertising guys get you to think that buying more stuff is the answer.


I'm naturally skeptical; can't you tell? =)

> My question is what's wrong with the Trek that it should be replaced.


Um, LOL -- it's stolen! =(

> The more upright you sit the more of your weight is on whatever part of your
> anatomy hits the saddle. If you have a stupid plush saddle it'll be your crotch
> that takes the weight. If you have a proper hard saddle set high enough it'll be
> the sits bones on either side of your ass and below the cheeks that bear the
> load.
>
> I can build callouses on my ass.


Sounds logical enough. See, bikes are inherently uncomfortable, as I
say! Even you can build padding on your ass, and your bikes fit you.

> By raising the saddle you shift weight forward to your hands and legs.


Problem with this is that then the wrists and even elbows wind up hurt,
not to mention straining the neck...this is also why cycling to me has
been an "inherently uncomfortable" sport.

> Using a
> narrow relatively hard saddle means you can keep your weight off the tender bits
> and onto the bony bits on either side. Sit on a hard wood bench, lean forward.
> Feel the two spots your weight is on - that's what should be supporting you on
> the bike. Riding on your taint is just cruelty.


That hurts too, riding on the bones! I do that, too, but over long
rides weight's just shifted all over the place -- I can even ride by
sitting on just one cheek!

> You should be getting out of the saddle and shifting your position regularly.
> Don't get settled in to one position.


Yes, I do. Glad to see I'm doing something right, then! Always
figured on bicycling being a "natural" thing.

> Myself I like the Specialized BG saddles, they are fitted to the rider and have
> a groove and cutout right where you don't want your weight to rest.


Cool, thanks for the tip! I'm over to Specialized's site right now to
check 'em out....

> Here's da Faqs jack: ftp://draco.acs.uci.edu/pub/rec.bicycles/faq They presume
> knowledge, but there's good general info.
>
> Ron


They always presume a working know-how to begin with, don't they? How
annoying.

But thanks all the same; this looks good -- much obliged!!
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Thanks for the ref -- I've never heard of "tensioned leather"...sounds
like a throw-back to yesteryear!

The more this thread develops, the more I'm getting a sense of that
"blind men describing different parts of an elephant"...where I'm all
three blind men!

Sigh...gotta learn with some $$$ what saddles suit me, I see. So I'm
gonna get a Serfas RX and one of these leather thinggies, too, and see!



C.J.Patten wrote:
> NYC XYZ:
>
> Saddles are so personal, to borrow a phrase, "you gotta break a few eggs to
> make an omelette."
>
> I have half a dozen saddles in a wicker basket in my living room. I have a
> 1976 Brooks Team Pro on my one and only bike. I found the Brooks *in the
> trash* :eek:
>
> If you haven't tried a tensioned leather saddle (Brooks specifically) and
> you're into "comfort" not racing, you might consider giving one a shot. I
> will never go back to plastic saddles unless I get in to time trialing or
> something - then I'll still probably look for a Brooks Swallow.
>
> Download their catalog at:
> http://www.brookssaddles.com/docs/catalogue_05_en.pdf
> (right click and "Save As...")
>
> See Sheldon Brown's page on saddles:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html
>
> For folks opinions on the Brooks:
> http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/Saddle/product_22663.shtml
> Note the 4.83/5.00 average rating.
>
> Good luck.
> Chris
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Eh? Just a fancy, minimalist title page....



Zoom wrote:
>
>
>
> This is the place that makes the Airborne frames.
> You can email them direct and they will answer your questions. Ask them
> for a price list.
>
> http://www.xacd.com.cn/
 
T

The Wogster

Guest
NYC XYZ wrote:
> Jeff Starr wrote:
>
>>
>>Bill, he kind of reminds me of early Maggie, without the charm. This
>>guy is so full of preconceived ideas, that it will take a miracle to
>>get through to him.

>
>
> LOL -- actually, I simply have no idea what it means to be "fit to a
> bike"...what, they take out the tape measure like at the tailor's?


Actually some do.... A few measurements plugged into a set of formulas
will give you a good starting point..... Typical measurements are knee
down, inseam, trunk length, arm length.....

>>For the OP, go to a LBS and get a professional fitting, bicycles can
>>be comfortable.

>
>
> That's just the thing -- I haven't any idea what "comfortable" means!
> There's this bike shop, Pedal Pushers, that claims to do *laser*
> fitting...how do I know it's not just a gimmick?


It's probably a variation on the tape measure deal.....

>
> I say bikes are uncomfortable because I just haven't experienced total
> "comfort" on any -- but then again, all physical activity involves some
> measure of discomfort...could just be the hectic way I ride, too --
> could be all the pothole patches in NYC I have to go over, all the
> bumps...who knows?


Depends on where the bumps have effect, perhaps you need a bike with at
least front suspension, if it's back and spine jarring, then maybe an
old fashioned leather saddle with springs will help.....

>>Overly padded bike saddles are generally not
>>comfortable on longer rides. Another thing, two brands of bike with
>>the same size listing, may be very different. Geometry and where they
>>measure, affects this.

>
>
> Wow, this is worse than buying clothes and shoes!
>


A good LBS that does professional fitting, should know the variations,
between brands that they carry, and be able to convert from one to another.

W
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
>
>
> Those cushy saddles are fine for round the corner rides and such but
> for longer rides you need to support the sit bones .


Surprised they don't have that cut-out in the center...seems like such
a logical thing to do on a saddle!

> Check out
> www.mtbr.com and look at B17 reviews.
> There are no better saddles at least for my butt. Proper sizing is
> crucial. If you know what size you need then mail order is great.


Many, many thanks!
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Bill Sornson wrote:
>
>
> DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS MAN -- HE'S A HORSE'S ASS.


?

I have to concur with his statements about an LBS -- that's how it's
been with me, too. Of course, like I said, I do realize that a
brick-and-mortar operation has expenses above the typical internet
business'....

> NYC, Just frigging go to a shop already; why is that so distasteful for
> you?!?


Well, I guess I'd be pissing off folks there, too -- so why not come
here and do it? =)

Also, I'd feel obligated to buy something for all the questions I'd
pepper them with. Besides, they'd have other customers coming and
going...etc.
 
T

The Wogster

Guest
Gooserider wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>>since you want a Ti bike, I would suggest that you go here:
>>http://www.habcycles.com/
>>Habanero frames are good quality, just like airborne. However, it is
>>smaller volume, and the owner, Mark, will spend more time talking to
>>you and answering all the questions that you have very patiently. Mark
>>is a regular poster here and a nice guy, but don't talk politics with
>>him.
>>
>>Andres

>
>
> Habaneros are still Chinese. If you want Ti, save up and buy a Litespeed.
> Otherwise, there are plenty of perfectly fine bikes made from other
> materials. Ti can't do anything good steel doesn't. So it doesn't rust? I
> live in Florida, ride steel, and I don't have a rust problem. Proper
> maintenance goes a long way. Ti is
>
>


Rust doesn't have to be an issue for steel elsewhere either, keep a bike
clean (wash it once a week, a good time to lube the chain, check
adjustments like brakes and chain stretch), then touch up any paint
scratches and chips with one of those kits used for doing the same on an
automobile. I know Canadian Tire has them in Canada, Target or Ace
should in the US.... Steel bikes that get rusty, have not been properly
maintained.....

W
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Bill Sornson wrote:
>
>
> As I said 12 hours ago, "Dude, you're all over the map."


Stream-of-consciousness tends to be like that...and no, I can't
organize my thoughts 'cause I have no idea of the "territory" here so
questions just come out -- like when you're doing something for the
first time and you just do whatever instead of in any systematic way
because you haven't any theory in you by which to organize your
actions....

> Bill "OK, this time I /really/ give up!" S.


Thanks for playing!

Seriously, I figured I'd get that response from a bike shop, too, so
that's why I'm here. =)
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
!Jones wrote:
>
>
> Well, some folks get wound up pretty easily and methinks this one is
> in search of a reason. You're perfectly on topic asking a
> bicycle-related question here.


Thanks -- I'd just as soon go to a bike shop, but of course they're
trying to sell something, and likely to be busy with other customers,
too.

> If you want to see him have a conniption fit, propose restricting
> bicycles or requiring insurance... something like that. Sometimes
> it's fun to push a hot button and watch them slaver and chew the rug;
> however, you don't ever *learn* anything therein and I have a short
> attention span for that sort of thing.
>
> Jones


Well, I was wondering how come you don't see those shapely sexy babes
on bikes very often...seems like they're all skinny or old and
sun-burned!

<PEDALING>
 
H

Hank Wirtz

Guest
"Gooserider" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:


> You want to be comfortable? Here you go:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/surly-cross-check.html#complete
>
> Steel frame, fat tires, relaxed geometry. Fender-able, rack-able.
> Heavier than your 19 pound Chinese wonder machine, but comfortable
> enough for you to actually ride the thing. You ride the Surly enough
> and you'll easily drop the 6 pounds of weight difference. Plus, the
> Surly is a better fit for NYC, unless you think the gossamer wheels on
> the Airborne are going to handle potholes and curbs well.
>
>
>


Wow...now you're talkin'. I thought the days of a quality steel bike for
under $1000 were long gone. It's like a Rivendell Atlantis's kid brother,
right down to the uber-cool bar-end shifters.
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On 23 Jul 2005 10:36:29 -0700, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Jeff Starr wrote:
>>
>>
>> Bill, he kind of reminds me of early Maggie, without the charm. This
>> guy is so full of preconceived ideas, that it will take a miracle to
>> get through to him.

>
>LOL -- actually, I simply have no idea what it means to be "fit to a
>bike"...what, they take out the tape measure like at the tailor's?


Yep. For starters anyway.

>> For the OP, go to a LBS and get a professional fitting, bicycles can
>> be comfortable.

>
>That's just the thing -- I haven't any idea what "comfortable" means!
>There's this bike shop, Pedal Pushers, that claims to do *laser*
>fitting...how do I know it's not just a gimmick?


It IS a gimmick. But is probably part of a decent fitting. One of the tricks now
is to use a laser to track leg motion while pedaling.

>I say bikes are uncomfortable because I just haven't experienced total
>"comfort" on any -- but then again, all physical activity involves some
>measure of discomfort...could just be the hectic way I ride, too --
>could be all the pothole patches in NYC I have to go over, all the
>bumps...who knows?


True "comfortable" in this context is a relative thing. That said, as much as
you ride you should be able to get not uncomfortable.

>> Overly padded bike saddles are generally not
>> comfortable on longer rides. Another thing, two brands of bike with
>> the same size listing, may be very different. Geometry and where they
>> measure, affects this.

>
>Wow, this is worse than buying clothes and shoes!


Yep.

>> Maybe some background would help. What is your age and level of
>> fitness? How often do you ride? Do you wear padded bicycle shorts?
>> Where are you located?

>
>33, very fit (cardio and anaerobic), been riding since like 13, commute
>two hours four days a week and/or ride for six hours on the weekend
>exploring the NYC area. I don't wear padded shorts.
>
>Sorry, biking alway's been a "pick-up-and-go" affair for me...never
>imagined it's can be such a science for amateurs!


Really depends on how deeply you care to dig in.


>> Life is Good!


Indeed
Ron

>> Jeff
 
J

jj

Guest
On 23 Jul 2005 11:20:46 -0700, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Bill Sornson wrote:
>>
>>
>> As I said 12 hours ago, "Dude, you're all over the map."

>
>Stream-of-consciousness tends to be like that...and no, I can't
>organize my thoughts 'cause I have no idea of the "territory" here so
>questions just come out -- like when you're doing something for the
>first time and you just do whatever instead of in any systematic way
>because you haven't any theory in you by which to organize your
>actions....
>
>> Bill "OK, this time I /really/ give up!" S.

>
>Thanks for playing!
>
>Seriously, I figured I'd get that response from a bike shop, too, so
>that's why I'm here. =)


Go to the bikeshop. Tell them your inseam size and height, and that you
can't bend over too much and have them swap out the stem so the seat and
the drop bar tops are even. Level the saddle with a plumber's level - or
eyeball it. Take your cycling shoes and have them put on a pair of
compatible pedals.

Put the bike up on a trainer and ride and test how you feel in the drops
and on the hoods. If all is well, take it out on the road.

Ask if you can take it home overnight and return it if you find a serious
problem.

If they won't do most of the above, find another bike shop.

jj
 
>>Ask if you can take it home overnight and return it if you find a serious
problem. <<

Are you for real? What shop ( at least in NJ) would allow that. Once
you leave it;s yours. Some will make stem seat changes for a fee but
NONE will let you ride and return it!
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On 23 Jul 2005 11:03:10 -0700, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>RonSonic wrote:
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorta like finding a luxury car with sports car performance and minivan cargo
>> capacity.

>
>Yup! What's the big deal with that?? Why can't you have a woman
>that's pretty and smart? <DUCKS>


I just want a hooker who's a virgin and can cook.

>> Well either get off your ass and find out -

>
>Uh, how do I get off my ass and "find out"...I thought that's the whole
>point of this thread!


We'll all get tired of explaining things long before you know everything.

>> Nah, just need to learn to do your own maintenance.

>
>So things are supposed to wear out??
>
>I guess I really have got it backwards...I'm think bikes are inherently
>"uncomfortable" but should "last"...seems like the only thing that
>lasts is the frame itself -- everything else can be expected to see
>replacement, including rims!


Like anything else they wear and need maintenance. You seem to put in some
pretty serious mileage too.

>I'm just saying, in response to your question, that at 5'11" and 230
>lbs. I ride often and I ride hard!


Yeah, that can be rough on parts. I'm not much lighter.

>> My question is what's wrong with the Trek that it should be replaced.

>
>Um, LOL -- it's stolen! =(


I'd suggest starting from there. What about the Trek would you change or
improve? Look at it from a baseline, unless you just want to try something
completely different.

>> You should be getting out of the saddle and shifting your position regularly.
>> Don't get settled in to one position.

>
>Yes, I do. Glad to see I'm doing something right, then! Always
>figured on bicycling being a "natural" thing.


Really isn't all that complicated is it. Shouldn't be painful or uncomfortable
though. I think the difference between a bike that fits well and one that
doesn't is that you can adapt to the one that fits, the one that doesn't is
always gonna hurt.

For example we talk about "breaking in" a saddle, and when you feel that heavy
"chew toy" grade leather then reach down and feel your own ass you gotta wonder
just which is the one doing the breaking in. Nonetheless we do get comfortable
after some miles.

Ron
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Gooserider wrote:
>
>
> Then you shouldn't be worrying so much about frame material and a couple of
> pounds on the bike.


I am all the more, actually, precisely because I myself am so heavy!

> Comfort is more about position and fit on the bike. Comfort is cumulative.


Indeed, and that's why, being cumulative, I figured that every pound
counts where it can be shaved off, even if to wind up making room for
something else deemed necessary!

> No, but it definitely affects comfort. An upright position with less weight
> on the hands makes a huge difference.


On the hands! That's why I'd said elsewhere that cycling seems
"inherently uncomfortable"...always something being stressed out. =)

Well, if anything, I've learned from all these discussions that a
drop-bar would be better, insofar as it offers more hand
positions...seems obvious now, but I'd just never thought of it!

> I'd say the majority are. There are some aluminum(Cannondale comes to mind)
> and some Ti(Airborne, Lightspeed), but most are steel.


Hmm!
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
di wrote:
>
>
> Actually I wasn't even thinking about performance and hybrid in the same
> chain of thought,


I know, I "caught" folks "off-guard" by not stating my premises.

> most of the people I know who start with a hybrid and stay
> with cycling will eventually go to either a good quality road bike or
> mountain bike and drop the hybrid.


I figured on the hybrid as the all-purpose bike. Later on I'd get
different bikes for specific roles.

> BY the way you can buy a very good
> recumbent for $1200.


Not a nineteen-pounder!
 
J

jj

Guest
On 23 Jul 2005 11:38:51 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>>>Ask if you can take it home overnight and return it if you find a serious

>problem. <<
>
>Are you for real? What shop ( at least in NJ) would allow that. Once
>you leave it;s yours. Some will make stem seat changes for a fee but
>NONE will let you ride and return it!


Performance bikes allow this. I'm sure Mike's shop would if you were at
least a repeat customer. One thread here last year described how they
swapped out four bikes until the guy was happy and he ended up not buying.

I don't know about NJ. I hear alot of a-holes live there. ;-)

Doesn't hurt to ask if you can return it if there's a serious problem. In
my case it caused my left knee to hurt and they took it back at Performance
even though they'd already changed out the tires and put a bike computer on
it - no questions asked. I wiped it down after riding it about two miles -
the time it took for that problem to crop up.

jj