How Do These Airborne Specs Look?



N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Gooserider wrote:
>
>
> Ah, the wonders of free trade. How many American Ti fabricators could be
> employed if those bikes were made here?


I imagine the American companies do high-end Ti work -- M1 Abrams Main
Battle Tanks, for example.

> Can I find American made cheap plastic junk? No. Can I find bicycles, cars,
> motorcycles, appliances, and electronics not made in China. Sure, and I
> have.


Careful the components are out-sourced and actually made in China! The
devil's in the details.

> If the sticker says "Made in Taiwan", then that's the deal. They're all made
> at the same factories, anyway.


Damn, I'm surprised you trust a "Made in Taiwan" sticker over
Airborne's "Made in USA" sticker.
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Gooserider wrote:
>
>
> Or, the Chinese will continue to pour massive amounts of money into their
> military, strengthening them for the eventual takeover of Taiwan. That is
> the more likely scenario.


But don't you think it funny that the businessmen of Taiwan don't care
about this? They still continue investing and whatnot on the mainland.
Doesn't that strike you as funny, that while successive US
Administrations wonder what to do about China, the people of Taiwan
keep opening up more and more links, economic and otherwise?

> There are alternatives to buying Chinese bicycles. Saudi oil, not so much.
> At least not now. That's why I drive a car which gets excellent mileage, and
> commute by bicycle 4 days/week. The cartels aren't getting rich off me.


In the abstract, your reasoning is sound. I only wonder about whether
it actually carries the weight you seem to ascribe to it.
Psychologically you yourself feel better about your choices, but as
I've no particular "China animus," so to speak, I'd want to know that
my actions have actual political consequences, as that'd be the only
reason I'd forgo a financial bargain.

And in that regard, as Three Fire noted, it doesn't seem like
sanctioning Chinese products will improve the average Chinese worker's
life. The dictatorship is still there -- only that the proverbial
"little people" suffer more.

> But you can do the right thing.


Yeah, but what makes it the "right" thing? It's context, AFAIK.
Simply doing something in the abstract doesn't always translate well --
the ol' lying (a sin to some) to Nazis about Jews in your attic thing,
if you know what I mean.

Check this out: my sister and I are like big brother and sister to this
girl who's the daughter of my sister's friend's sister (got
that?)...her own mother is one of these ghetto party-types who dumps
her daughter with grand-parents, friends, etc. -- anyone, so long as
she can do the Jerry Springer thing...now is it right for us to be
minding this child? But if we don't, who will? The girl, Marianna,
has in effect been dumped on our doorstep (an even longer story)...what
do we do? If we don't play with her, take her out, etc., this kid will
be left vegetating at home in front of the TV.

The strictly principled stand is to "insist" on parental
responsibility, etc. The more practical thing seems to just
accommodate oneself to particular circumstances.

It's like -- stand back now -- welfare. Is it right? No, I don't
think so. But what will you do with all the -- ahem -- ghetto
free-loaders whose children are suddenly deprived, etc., in the absence
of a welfare check? Or handing out condoms in high school, or
abortion, or homosexuality...any hot button issue can be approached
from this "lesser of two evils" mentality -- you personally may not
agree with the morality of anything, but what's the alternative?

It's the old story of Jonah. Remember?

Hell is other people, as Sartre said. =)

> I'll bet you wouldn't buy a shampoo you knew
> was tested by being squirted in puppy's eyes(hypothetical, of course).


Actually, I eat meat, knowing full well the sickening conditions under
which this meat was raised.

(BTW, I heard on NPR last week that now scientists can actually create
meat -- chicken, beef, etc. -- in the laboratory! Anyone else hear
this???)

> Why
> you wouldn't have a problem buying a bicycle made in a country whose
> government routinely does worse things to people is beyond me.


Conveninence -- and also the conviction, for the time being at least,
that an economically strong China will mean improved every-day
conditions for the average Chinese, as we read that it has ever since
the '80s.

Don't forget that Taiwan used to make a bunch of stuff, and yet they
too had been a dictatorship until the mid-'80s. South Korea, etc.

Are you against trade with Vietnam, too? They're also a Commie
dictatorship...but I don't see any political wrangling over them.

I guess I'm just saying, as Three Fire also noted, that the big shots
in any society will always be comfortable...sanctions and war only
hurts the little folks. They should be employed as a last resort,
AFAIK.

> http://www.un.org/peace/africa/Diamond.html
> http://www.amnestyusa.org/diamonds/index.do
>
> Basically, conflict diamonds are those from Sierra Leone, Angola, and Congo.
> The sales of diamonds finance rebels who commit horrible atrocities against
> the civilian populations. Chopping off hands and feet with machetes is
> routine. I really don't think a little bling is worth somebody losing their
> hands, and the UN agrees.


Many thanks for the elucidation!

In the case of Africa, it does appear that the goods' sole purpose is
to finance war...China's different in that the goods provide for the
American lifestyle of cheap convenience which we're used to, and any
benefit to China's military ambitions are indirect, in the form of
taxes they levy -- which taxes they'd levy anyway.

Your whole thing seems to be about Chinese military capabilities and
domestic dictatorial atrocities...I read the papers too, and it's
really distressing to read about peasants being beaten up and killed by
local police for protesting the environmental abuse of their lands by
factory dumping...but this stuff goes on anyway, with or without the
American consumer. Whereas not purchasing conflict diamonds directly
undercut African civil wars, I just don't see how not purchasing
Chinese-made goods undercut Commie abuses. I mean, you think
successive Administrations couldn't have figured this out if it were
that simple??
 
T

The Wogster

Guest
RonSonic wrote:
>>Ah, yes, conventional wisdom. That's why it's so hard for me to find a
>>"comfort bike" with "performance" specs!

>
>
> Sorta like finding a luxury car with sports car performance and minivan cargo
> capacity.


Actually it's easier to do with a bike, but it would need to be custom
built, start with a light frame, preferably one with fittings for
fenders and racks, add a carbon or Ti fork, then build up the way you
want from there. Bike components are all highly interchangable, so it
should be easy enough to build a comfort bike, using some racing
components, some MTB components, and add a Brooks saddle for comfort.

W
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Jeff Starr wrote:
>
>
> What do you have against water bottles? How are you going to ride 50+
> miles, at a fast pace, and not drink any liquids?


No, I've got nothing "against" them...I just stop by the local
convenience store wherever I happen to be at for water -- Dasani
osmosis-purified Rasberry or Lemon!

> You are asking questions, but then debating or dismissing the answers.


I guess I'm employing the "Socratic Method" of inquiry that got him
killed....

> You don't like being numb in the crotch? Padded shorts might help
> that.


Yes, I'll give that $40 pair a try, soon...y'all are so for these
things I'm gonna try and see. Just always figured on them being
gimmicks -- like bottled water!

> Saddles are a personal thing, with certain general rules of thumb. You
> need a saddle that lines up with your sit bones, one that is
> comfortable for you. I went through four different saddles, before I
> settled on a Selle Italia Prolink basic.


Ah, another ref! Thanks!

> I really don't understand your reluctance to work with a LBS. They
> have to ask questions to understand your needs, and they are going to
> try to clear up your misconceptions, which would be no easy job.


Exactly -- I'm afraid to get blacklisted in NYC! Besides, they've got
sales to make...how do I know they even intend on being impartial?

> If you buy a bike online, without at least getting a pro fit and then
> assistance in fitting the new bike, you will continue to be
> uncomfortable.


So what's a "pro fit"? This shop, Pedal Pushers, has what they call
laser
fitting...http://pedalpusherbikeshop.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=95...does
this look genuine??

I just don't want to feel obligated...you see how folks here think I'm
being argumentative about things, when all I'm doing is asking
questions and follow-up questions...imagine a busy bike shop dealing
with that! Fitting me out, etc., only to have me decide to buy
elsewhere.

Forget Communist dictatorships...I feel bad enough doing that to my
LBS!

> Life is Good!
> Jeff
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Jeff Starr wrote:
>
>
> What do you have against water bottles? How are you going to ride 50+
> miles, at a fast pace, and not drink any liquids?


No, I've got nothing "against" them...I just stop by the local
convenience store wherever I happen to be at for water -- Dasani
osmosis-purified Rasberry or Lemon!

> You are asking questions, but then debating or dismissing the answers.


I guess I'm employing the "Socratic Method" of inquiry that got him
killed....

> You don't like being numb in the crotch? Padded shorts might help
> that.


Yes, I'll give that $40 pair a try, soon...y'all are so for these
things I'm gonna try and see. Just always figured on them being
gimmicks -- like bottled water!

> Saddles are a personal thing, with certain general rules of thumb. You
> need a saddle that lines up with your sit bones, one that is
> comfortable for you. I went through four different saddles, before I
> settled on a Selle Italia Prolink basic.


Ah, another ref! Thanks!

> I really don't understand your reluctance to work with a LBS. They
> have to ask questions to understand your needs, and they are going to
> try to clear up your misconceptions, which would be no easy job.


Exactly -- I'm afraid to get blacklisted in NYC! Besides, they've got
sales to make...how do I know they even intend on being impartial?

> If you buy a bike online, without at least getting a pro fit and then
> assistance in fitting the new bike, you will continue to be
> uncomfortable.


So what's a "pro fit"? This shop, Pedal Pushers, has what they call
laser
fitting...http://pedalpusherbikeshop.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=95...does
this look genuine??

I just don't want to feel obligated...you see how folks here think I'm
being argumentative about things, when all I'm doing is asking
questions and follow-up questions...imagine a busy bike shop dealing
with that! Fitting me out, etc., only to have me decide to buy
elsewhere.

Forget Communist dictatorships...I feel bad enough doing that to my
LBS!

> Life is Good!
> Jeff
 
J

!Jones

Guest
On 23 Jul 2005 11:23:31 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech "NYC XYZ"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Well, I was wondering how come you don't see those shapely sexy babes
>on bikes very often...seems like they're all skinny or old and
>sun-burned!
>
><PEDALING>


Oh, s***!! Now ya done it!

I *did* once have a sales person try to sell me a bike based on the
claim that some poster girl had rubbed her ass on it. Of course, it
was in a punk cruizer shop.

Jones
 
B

Bill Sornson

Guest
NYC XYZ wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:


>> NYC, Just frigging go to a shop already; why is that so distasteful
>> for you?!?

>
> Well, I guess I'd be pissing off folks there, too -- so why not come
> here and do it? =)
>
> Also, I'd feel obligated to buy something for all the questions I'd
> pepper them with. Besides, they'd have other customers coming and
> going...etc.


One last try.

The idea is to buy a bike. You go to a shop, tell them about the kind of
riding you do (or want/plan to do), and listen to their advice. You try out
what they have to offer. Maybe something really grabs you; maybe nothing
really does. Repeat a few times at /various/ bike shops, and either pick
something or wait a while longer.

Or, just buy one of those Airbornes and make it work.

Then go ride.

Out, BS
 
D

di

Guest
"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>
>>
>> As I said 12 hours ago, "Dude, you're all over the map."

>
> Stream-of-consciousness tends to be like that...and no, I can't
> organize my thoughts 'cause I have no idea of the "territory" here so
> questions just come out -- like when you're doing something for the
> first time and you just do whatever instead of in any systematic way
> because you haven't any theory in you by which to organize your
> actions....
>
>> Bill "OK, this time I /really/ give up!" S.

>
> Thanks for playing!
>
> Seriously, I figured I'd get that response from a bike shop, too, so
> that's why I'm here. =)



No, you're here to troll and argue, not get information.
 
G

Gooserider

Guest
"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Gooserider wrote:
>>
>>
>> Then you shouldn't be worrying so much about frame material and a couple
>> of
>> pounds on the bike.

>
> I am all the more, actually, precisely because I myself am so heavy!
>
>> Comfort is more about position and fit on the bike. Comfort is
>> cumulative.

>
> Indeed, and that's why, being cumulative, I figured that every pound
> counts where it can be shaved off, even if to wind up making room for
> something else deemed necessary!


Comfort has about nothing to do with bike weight, NYC. If you want to climb
hills, then the bike's gearing needs to be appropriate. A triple crankset
with wide enough range in the rear cassette will make climbing easy.

>> No, but it definitely affects comfort. An upright position with less
>> weight
>> on the hands makes a huge difference.

>
> On the hands! That's why I'd said elsewhere that cycling seems
> "inherently uncomfortable"...always something being stressed out. =)


I've heard (and experienced) of more people having hand pain/numbness than
any other bike complaint. Why? Because people ride ill-fitting bikes.

> Well, if anything, I've learned from all these discussions that a
> drop-bar would be better, insofar as it offers more hand
> positions...seems obvious now, but I'd just never thought of it!
>
>> I'd say the majority are. There are some aluminum(Cannondale comes to
>> mind)
>> and some Ti(Airborne, Lightspeed), but most are steel.

>
> Hmm!
 
G

Gooserider

Guest
"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Gooserider wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ah, the wonders of free trade. How many American Ti fabricators could be
>> employed if those bikes were made here?

>
> I imagine the American companies do high-end Ti work -- M1 Abrams Main
> Battle Tanks, for example.
>
>> Can I find American made cheap plastic junk? No. Can I find bicycles,
>> cars,
>> motorcycles, appliances, and electronics not made in China. Sure, and I
>> have.

>
> Careful the components are out-sourced and actually made in China! The
> devil's in the details.


Not my Nissan. Japanese parts, American parts, made in Tennessee by
rednecks. Can I vouch for every single part of every thing I own? Of course
not. But every little bit helps.

>> If the sticker says "Made in Taiwan", then that's the deal. They're all
>> made
>> at the same factories, anyway.

>
> Damn, I'm surprised you trust a "Made in Taiwan" sticker over
> Airborne's "Made in USA" sticker.


Airborne admits their frames are made in China. My Ibex is made in Taiwan:
http://www.ibexbikes.com/About_IBEX.html

We established our production in Taiwan, R.O.C. at a time when many
manufacturers are migrating to mainland China in search of cheaper labor and
production costs. From much experience in the manufacture of other products
we were shy of the inconsistent quality sometimes created by these
cost-cutting measures. Taiwan has a long and reputable history in the
bicycle industry with many highly skilled craftsmen experienced at all
phases of bicycle production.



My Schwinn Peloton was also made in Taiwan. Of course, it's a pre-Pacific
buyout Schwinn. My Mongoose MTB was made in Taiwan a LOOOONG time before
China entered the game. And, naturally, my Gunnar was made in Wisconsin from
American made True Temper steel. My conscience is clear.
 
G

Gooserider

Guest
"Hank Wirtz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Gooserider" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>
>> You want to be comfortable? Here you go:
>>
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/surly-cross-check.html#complete
>>
>> Steel frame, fat tires, relaxed geometry. Fender-able, rack-able.
>> Heavier than your 19 pound Chinese wonder machine, but comfortable
>> enough for you to actually ride the thing. You ride the Surly enough
>> and you'll easily drop the 6 pounds of weight difference. Plus, the
>> Surly is a better fit for NYC, unless you think the gossamer wheels on
>> the Airborne are going to handle potholes and curbs well.
>>
>>
>>

>
> Wow...now you're talkin'. I thought the days of a quality steel bike for
> under $1000 were long gone. It's like a Rivendell Atlantis's kid brother,
> right down to the uber-cool bar-end shifters.


Surlys are cool. Lots of messengers use them. The component spec on that
package could be better, but one can always upgrade.
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:02:42 -0400, The Wogster <[email protected]> wrote:

>RonSonic wrote:
>>>Ah, yes, conventional wisdom. That's why it's so hard for me to find a
>>>"comfort bike" with "performance" specs!

>>
>>
>> Sorta like finding a luxury car with sports car performance and minivan cargo
>> capacity.

>
>Actually it's easier to do with a bike, but it would need to be custom
>built, start with a light frame, preferably one with fittings for
>fenders and racks, add a carbon or Ti fork, then build up the way you
>want from there. Bike components are all highly interchangable, so it
>should be easy enough to build a comfort bike, using some racing
>components, some MTB components, and add a Brooks saddle for comfort.


Yep, as an example there are a lot of "cross" bikes out there that'll never be
used in competition. Also seeing a lot of rigid mountain bikes sporting slicks
and fenders.

Ron
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:12:37 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>NYC XYZ wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:

>
>>> NYC, Just frigging go to a shop already; why is that so distasteful
>>> for you?!?

>>
>> Well, I guess I'd be pissing off folks there, too -- so why not come
>> here and do it? =)
>>
>> Also, I'd feel obligated to buy something for all the questions I'd
>> pepper them with. Besides, they'd have other customers coming and
>> going...etc.

>
>One last try.
>
>The idea is to buy a bike. You go to a shop, tell them about the kind of
>riding you do (or want/plan to do), and listen to their advice. You try out
>what they have to offer. Maybe something really grabs you; maybe nothing
>really does. Repeat a few times at /various/ bike shops, and either pick
>something or wait a while longer.
>
>Or, just buy one of those Airbornes and make it work.
>
>Then go ride.
>
>Out, BS


I'll believe it when I see it. You're just too stubborn.

Ron
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On 23 Jul 2005 11:20:46 -0700, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Bill Sornson wrote:
>>
>>
>> As I said 12 hours ago, "Dude, you're all over the map."

>
>Stream-of-consciousness tends to be like that...and no, I can't
>organize my thoughts 'cause I have no idea of the "territory" here so
>questions just come out -- like when you're doing something for the
>first time and you just do whatever instead of in any systematic way
>because you haven't any theory in you by which to organize your
>actions....
>
>> Bill "OK, this time I /really/ give up!" S.

>
>Thanks for playing!
>
>Seriously, I figured I'd get that response from a bike shop, too, so
>that's why I'm here. =)


They get paid for it.

Ron
 
J

Jasper Janssen

Guest
On 23 Jul 2005 11:16:40 -0700, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Well, I guess I'd be pissing off folks there, too -- so why not come
>here and do it? =)


That's nice. Now that you've admitted that your primary motivation for
posting is annoying us, I think i wont' be reading any more of your posts.

You are the weakest link, goodbye.


Jasper
 
J

Jasper Janssen

Guest
On 23 Jul 2005 06:32:01 -0700, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Does it seem suspicious he also deals in
>used bikes, on the side, on his own?).


Only inasmuch as he's probably fencing stolen goods. If that doesn't
bother you, they're probably pretty good value for money.

Jasper
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:39:12 GMT, "Gooserider" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>> Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!
>>
>> http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp
>>
>> http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp
>>
>>

>You want to be comfortable? Here you go:
>
>http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/surly-cross-check.html#complete


That's a pretty damn cool bike. One could quibble about some of the component
choices but no disagreeing that they're a great bang for the buck package. A
bunch of upgrades and this'll cost as much as what the OP was looking at.

>Steel frame, fat tires, relaxed geometry. Fender-able, rack-able. Heavier
>than your 19 pound Chinese wonder machine, but comfortable enough for you to
>actually ride the thing. You ride the Surly enough and you'll easily drop
>the 6 pounds of weight difference. Plus, the Surly is a better fit for NYC,
>unless you think the gossamer wheels on the Airborne are going to handle
>potholes and curbs well.


Good points all.

Ron
 
G

Gooserider

Guest
"RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:39:12 GMT, "Gooserider"
> <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]
>>> Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!
>>>
>>> http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp
>>>
>>> http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp
>>>
>>>

>>You want to be comfortable? Here you go:
>>
>>http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/surly-cross-check.html#complete

>
> That's a pretty damn cool bike. One could quibble about some of the
> component
> choices but no disagreeing that they're a great bang for the buck package.
> A
> bunch of upgrades and this'll cost as much as what the OP was looking at.


Since I would automatically add clipless pedals(maybe a combo
clip/platform), a rack, and fenders, it would reach $1200 in no time.
However, a fifty dollar upgrade here and there amortized over time would be
no big deal. I think I would upgrade the derailleurs and crank(go to Deore
or even 105, maybe a Sugino crankset). Other than that, it would be OK for
years.

>>Steel frame, fat tires, relaxed geometry. Fender-able, rack-able. Heavier
>>than your 19 pound Chinese wonder machine, but comfortable enough for you
>>to
>>actually ride the thing. You ride the Surly enough and you'll easily drop
>>the 6 pounds of weight difference. Plus, the Surly is a better fit for
>>NYC,
>>unless you think the gossamer wheels on the Airborne are going to handle
>>potholes and curbs well.

>
> Good points all.
>
> Ron


There's a reason Surlys are big with messengers. I think the Cross-Check
complete bike package is just about the best deal going. Plus---it doesn't
have a flashy paint job, nor does it scream "TITANIUM PLEASE STEAL ME".
Wait, any bike screams that in NYC....
 
G

Gooserider

Guest
"jj" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 23 Jul 2005 11:20:46 -0700, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> As I said 12 hours ago, "Dude, you're all over the map."

>>
>>Stream-of-consciousness tends to be like that...and no, I can't
>>organize my thoughts 'cause I have no idea of the "territory" here so
>>questions just come out -- like when you're doing something for the
>>first time and you just do whatever instead of in any systematic way
>>because you haven't any theory in you by which to organize your
>>actions....
>>
>>> Bill "OK, this time I /really/ give up!" S.

>>
>>Thanks for playing!
>>
>>Seriously, I figured I'd get that response from a bike shop, too, so
>>that's why I'm here. =)

>
> Go to the bikeshop. Tell them your inseam size and height, and that you
> can't bend over too much and have them swap out the stem so the seat and
> the drop bar tops are even. Level the saddle with a plumber's level - or
> eyeball it. Take your cycling shoes and have them put on a pair of
> compatible pedals.
>
> Put the bike up on a trainer and ride and test how you feel in the drops
> and on the hoods. If all is well, take it out on the road.
>
> Ask if you can take it home overnight and return it if you find a serious
> problem.
>
> If they won't do most of the above, find another bike shop.


My shop did none of that with my Gunnar, but I knew exactly how I wanted it
set up. They nailed the frame size with a few measurements---but the wrench
has been fitting people for 20 years, and it's a high end shop.I had to do
some fiddling here and there with saddle position(fore and aft) but that's
to be expected.
 
G

Gooserider

Guest
"Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> NYC XYZ wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:

>
>>> NYC, Just frigging go to a shop already; why is that so distasteful
>>> for you?!?

>>
>> Well, I guess I'd be pissing off folks there, too -- so why not come
>> here and do it? =)
>>
>> Also, I'd feel obligated to buy something for all the questions I'd
>> pepper them with. Besides, they'd have other customers coming and
>> going...etc.

>
> One last try.
>
> The idea is to buy a bike. You go to a shop, tell them about the kind of
> riding you do (or want/plan to do), and listen to their advice. You try
> out what they have to offer. Maybe something really grabs you; maybe
> nothing really does. Repeat a few times at /various/ bike shops, and
> either pick something or wait a while longer.
>
> Or, just buy one of those Airbornes and make it work.
>
>

To be fair, Airborne does appear to have a pretty detailed online fit
program. Whether a buyer will end up with a racer-type fit or a real world
comfortable fit is unclear, but they do measure inseam, torso length, and
arm extension. They also set buyers up with different crankarm lengths
according to inseam, and provide differing handlebar widths. That's pretty
thorough. I would imagine even a newbie could get a pretty good fit this
way. I'm certain a buyer could inform Airborne of the desire to get the bars
up. I would rather spend this kind of money at an LBS, though.