How Do These Airborne Specs Look?



M

Mark Hickey

Guest
David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

>Quoting Mark Hickey <[email protected]>:
>>David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>You cannot have more braking than that, so the theoretical brake "power"
>>>(which tandems find out, with surprising results) is quite irrelevant.

>>An interesting (to me, at least...) data point is that I designed my
>>new tandem around regular road caliper brakes, never having been
>>really happy with the performance of canti brakes on my previous
>>tandem.

>
>Certainly plain ordinary calipers can work just fine, but did you try
>fiddling with the straddle cable? I've got it as high as will just permit
>me to bottom out the lever (higher, and you're just getting lower
>mechanical advantage; lower, and the input force is lower, as I'm sure you
>know) with maximum grip, and the front brake is certainly good enough to
>produce an alarming DOING sensation from the front fork...


I've set up the rear canti brake on my old Santana many times, looking
for adequate braking. As you mention, the "sweet spot" is with the
straddle low enough to produce good mechanical advantage, but not TOO
low. Going to the DiaCompe 287 T (?) lever (slightly longer pull)
helped a bit, but the real improvement came with a set of solid
straddles. There's just not enough extra pull in a typical road brake
lever to overcome even a little straddle "give".

But even so, the caliper brakes I'm running now (Campy Centaur dual
pivots) are head and shoulders better than I ever got the cantis...

>[The back brake's a Suntour self-energiser, so I've no idea how well a
>conventional canti works on a tandem.]


That's probably the one place that self-energizing brake makes sense
(since the back end of a tandem never gets TOO light under braking -
I've yet to see anyone do a nose wheelie on one). ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

>Quoting Mark Hickey <[email protected]>:
>>David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>You cannot have more braking than that, so the theoretical brake "power"
>>>(which tandems find out, with surprising results) is quite irrelevant.

>>An interesting (to me, at least...) data point is that I designed my
>>new tandem around regular road caliper brakes, never having been
>>really happy with the performance of canti brakes on my previous
>>tandem.

>
>Certainly plain ordinary calipers can work just fine, but did you try
>fiddling with the straddle cable? I've got it as high as will just permit
>me to bottom out the lever (higher, and you're just getting lower
>mechanical advantage; lower, and the input force is lower, as I'm sure you
>know) with maximum grip, and the front brake is certainly good enough to
>produce an alarming DOING sensation from the front fork...


I've set up the rear canti brake on my old Santana many times, looking
for adequate braking. As you mention, the "sweet spot" is with the
straddle low enough to produce good mechanical advantage, but not TOO
low. Going to the DiaCompe 287 T (?) lever (slightly longer pull)
helped a bit, but the real improvement came with a set of solid
straddles. There's just not enough extra pull in a typical road brake
lever to overcome even a little straddle "give".

But even so, the caliper brakes I'm running now (Campy Centaur dual
pivots) are head and shoulders better than I ever got the cantis...

>[The back brake's a Suntour self-energiser, so I've no idea how well a
>conventional canti works on a tandem.]


That's probably the one place that self-energizing brake makes sense
(since the back end of a tandem never gets TOO light under braking -
I've yet to see anyone do a nose wheelie on one). ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

>Quoting Mark Hickey <[email protected]>:
>>David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>You cannot have more braking than that, so the theoretical brake "power"
>>>(which tandems find out, with surprising results) is quite irrelevant.

>>An interesting (to me, at least...) data point is that I designed my
>>new tandem around regular road caliper brakes, never having been
>>really happy with the performance of canti brakes on my previous
>>tandem.

>
>Certainly plain ordinary calipers can work just fine, but did you try
>fiddling with the straddle cable? I've got it as high as will just permit
>me to bottom out the lever (higher, and you're just getting lower
>mechanical advantage; lower, and the input force is lower, as I'm sure you
>know) with maximum grip, and the front brake is certainly good enough to
>produce an alarming DOING sensation from the front fork...


I've set up the rear canti brake on my old Santana many times, looking
for adequate braking. As you mention, the "sweet spot" is with the
straddle low enough to produce good mechanical advantage, but not TOO
low. Going to the DiaCompe 287 T (?) lever (slightly longer pull)
helped a bit, but the real improvement came with a set of solid
straddles. There's just not enough extra pull in a typical road brake
lever to overcome even a little straddle "give".

But even so, the caliper brakes I'm running now (Campy Centaur dual
pivots) are head and shoulders better than I ever got the cantis...

>[The back brake's a Suntour self-energiser, so I've no idea how well a
>conventional canti works on a tandem.]


That's probably the one place that self-energizing brake makes sense
(since the back end of a tandem never gets TOO light under braking -
I've yet to see anyone do a nose wheelie on one). ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

>Quoting Mark Hickey <[email protected]>:
>>David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>You cannot have more braking than that, so the theoretical brake "power"
>>>(which tandems find out, with surprising results) is quite irrelevant.

>>An interesting (to me, at least...) data point is that I designed my
>>new tandem around regular road caliper brakes, never having been
>>really happy with the performance of canti brakes on my previous
>>tandem.

>
>Certainly plain ordinary calipers can work just fine, but did you try
>fiddling with the straddle cable? I've got it as high as will just permit
>me to bottom out the lever (higher, and you're just getting lower
>mechanical advantage; lower, and the input force is lower, as I'm sure you
>know) with maximum grip, and the front brake is certainly good enough to
>produce an alarming DOING sensation from the front fork...


I've set up the rear canti brake on my old Santana many times, looking
for adequate braking. As you mention, the "sweet spot" is with the
straddle low enough to produce good mechanical advantage, but not TOO
low. Going to the DiaCompe 287 T (?) lever (slightly longer pull)
helped a bit, but the real improvement came with a set of solid
straddles. There's just not enough extra pull in a typical road brake
lever to overcome even a little straddle "give".

But even so, the caliper brakes I'm running now (Campy Centaur dual
pivots) are head and shoulders better than I ever got the cantis...

>[The back brake's a Suntour self-energiser, so I've no idea how well a
>conventional canti works on a tandem.]


That's probably the one place that self-energizing brake makes sense
(since the back end of a tandem never gets TOO light under braking -
I've yet to see anyone do a nose wheelie on one). ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
NYC XYZ wrote:
> Gooserider wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ah, the wonders of free trade. How many American Ti fabricators could be
> > employed if those bikes were made here?

>
> I imagine the American companies do high-end Ti work -- M1 Abrams Main
> Battle Tanks, for example.
>


Some of the best ti welding is from the former Sovietr Union. They were
the only welders skilled enough to do a double walled titanium hulled
sub, The Alpha, for instance.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
NYC XYZ wrote:
> Gooserider wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ah, the wonders of free trade. How many American Ti fabricators could be
> > employed if those bikes were made here?

>
> I imagine the American companies do high-end Ti work -- M1 Abrams Main
> Battle Tanks, for example.
>


Some of the best ti welding is from the former Sovietr Union. They were
the only welders skilled enough to do a double walled titanium hulled
sub, The Alpha, for instance.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
NYC XYZ wrote:
> Gooserider wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ah, the wonders of free trade. How many American Ti fabricators could be
> > employed if those bikes were made here?

>
> I imagine the American companies do high-end Ti work -- M1 Abrams Main
> Battle Tanks, for example.
>


Some of the best ti welding is from the former Sovietr Union. They were
the only welders skilled enough to do a double walled titanium hulled
sub, The Alpha, for instance.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
NYC XYZ wrote:
> Gooserider wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ah, the wonders of free trade. How many American Ti fabricators could be
> > employed if those bikes were made here?

>
> I imagine the American companies do high-end Ti work -- M1 Abrams Main
> Battle Tanks, for example.
>


Some of the best ti welding is from the former Sovietr Union. They were
the only welders skilled enough to do a double walled titanium hulled
sub, The Alpha, for instance.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
NYC XYZ wrote:
> Gooserider wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ah, the wonders of free trade. How many American Ti fabricators could be
> > employed if those bikes were made here?

>
> I imagine the American companies do high-end Ti work -- M1 Abrams Main
> Battle Tanks, for example.
>


Some of the best ti welding is from the former Sovietr Union. They were
the only welders skilled enough to do a double walled titanium hulled
sub, The Alpha, for instance.
 
one impressive sell job-the lemond big sky-see the photo on the web
bicycle mag in "the new yorker goes touring" sez-'wow'-so off to the
photo and itsa knock out. ceptin' those wheels over the dirt roads of
east whaooo?
then i read in the paper whereas trek welds lemonds.
but the lead up and photo is outasight
 
one impressive sell job-the lemond big sky-see the photo on the web
bicycle mag in "the new yorker goes touring" sez-'wow'-so off to the
photo and itsa knock out. ceptin' those wheels over the dirt roads of
east whaooo?
then i read in the paper whereas trek welds lemonds.
but the lead up and photo is outasight
 
one impressive sell job-the lemond big sky-see the photo on the web
bicycle mag in "the new yorker goes touring" sez-'wow'-so off to the
photo and itsa knock out. ceptin' those wheels over the dirt roads of
east whaooo?
then i read in the paper whereas trek welds lemonds.
but the lead up and photo is outasight
 
one impressive sell job-the lemond big sky-see the photo on the web
bicycle mag in "the new yorker goes touring" sez-'wow'-so off to the
photo and itsa knock out. ceptin' those wheels over the dirt roads of
east whaooo?
then i read in the paper whereas trek welds lemonds.
but the lead up and photo is outasight
 
one impressive sell job-the lemond big sky-see the photo on the web
bicycle mag in "the new yorker goes touring" sez-'wow'-so off to the
photo and itsa knock out. ceptin' those wheels over the dirt roads of
east whaooo?
then i read in the paper whereas trek welds lemonds.
but the lead up and photo is outasight
 
J

Jasper Janssen

Guest
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:54:10 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> rote:
>David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:


>>[The back brake's a Suntour self-energiser, so I've no idea how well a
>>conventional canti works on a tandem.]

>
>That's probably the one place that self-energizing brake makes sense
>(since the back end of a tandem never gets TOO light under braking -
>I've yet to see anyone do a nose wheelie on one). ;-)


You still don't want to *lock* the wheel, though. Especially as recovering
from a slide might be harder with two people acting on instinct. And you
definitely don't want to lock the front wheel of a tandem.

Jasper
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
Jasper Janssen <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:54:10 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> rote:
>>David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>>>[The back brake's a Suntour self-energiser, so I've no idea how well a
>>>conventional canti works on a tandem.]

>>
>>That's probably the one place that self-energizing brake makes sense
>>(since the back end of a tandem never gets TOO light under braking -
>>I've yet to see anyone do a nose wheelie on one). ;-)

>
>You still don't want to *lock* the wheel, though. Especially as recovering
>from a slide might be harder with two people acting on instinct. And you
>definitely don't want to lock the front wheel of a tandem.


It took a lot of tinkering with my Santana's rear brake before I had
to worry about locking it up (or it doing much to actually stop the
bike for that matter...). FWIW, I've found the tandem to be very
controllable under a rear wheel skid, probably because of the
humongous wheelbase. That said, I didn't lock up the rear wheel very
often because it (obviously) is REALLY hard on rear tires. ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
D

David Damerell

Guest
Quoting Jasper Janssen <[email protected]>:
[Tandem rear brakes and self-energisers]
>You still don't want to *lock* the wheel, though. Especially as recovering
>from a slide might be harder with two people acting on instinct.


Actually, it's not a big deal, provided your stoker is level-headed enough
not to scream and wave their arms around. I'm not saying it's a problem if
they do; I don't know, because mine doesn't. The bike's pretty stable in a
rear wheel skid - of course if you were cornering sharply you'd be a bit
boned, but that's just as true on a single.

Also it is quite difficult to get wheel-locking performance out of any
tandem rear brake - just as well, given the effect on tyres when you do.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
Today is Second Oneiros, July.
 
D

David Damerell

Guest
Quoting Jasper Janssen <[email protected]>:
[Tandem rear brakes and self-energisers]
>You still don't want to *lock* the wheel, though. Especially as recovering
>from a slide might be harder with two people acting on instinct.


Actually, it's not a big deal, provided your stoker is level-headed enough
not to scream and wave their arms around. I'm not saying it's a problem if
they do; I don't know, because mine doesn't. The bike's pretty stable in a
rear wheel skid - of course if you were cornering sharply you'd be a bit
boned, but that's just as true on a single.

Also it is quite difficult to get wheel-locking performance out of any
tandem rear brake - just as well, given the effect on tyres when you do.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
Today is Second Oneiros, July.